GUILTY UK - Sarah Everard, 33, London, Clapham Common area, 3 Mar 2021 *Awaiting Sentencing*, #15

[Stella123]

The simplest answer I can think of is that the digital data shows the hire car was never in the area of the woods. If only his own car ever went there, and Sarah ended up there, then at some point before 8:30am he had to have moved her to his own car.

I don't think he'd ever have taken the hire car home either. I think he took his car to somewhere near the car hire business, took the hire car to where his own car was parked at 1am and switched to his own car, took his own car home, then went back at 8:30 to collect the hire car and return it. I wonder if his wife gave any details of his comings and goings

Yes that is sounding more likely- good point. He would have gone home in his own car (as he left in his own car). And that would explain why his wife didn’t see the hire car next morning when she went to work (as per annpats deductions).

So that would make sense. Transfer the body to his own car, leave the hire car parked up somewhere, go back next morning and take the hire car back ftom where he left it.

The confusion with that though is it’s stated that cameras tracked the Astra and it was seen at 1am at Tilmanstone - which is after he went through Dover/past hire car place - and when he was nearly home. And that they know he was home by 1.30am (although that could have been from cell data rather than the Astra seen on camera as probably no cameras near his home.

So to work this out we need to know if it was actually the Astra that was seen on camera at Tilmanstone.

I think it did say that which suggests he did go home in the hire car. Maybe he put it in the garage snd closed the door leaving his wife’s car out on the drive ready for her to go next morning so she wouldn’t know any different.

 

[Dotta]

The children have both citizenships I think, so they can later decide where to live - but the change of the surname is a must

 

[Stella123]

The simplest answer I can think of is that the digital data shows the hire car was never in the area of the woods. If only his own car ever went there, and Sarah ended up there, then at some point before 8:30am he had to have moved her to his own car.

I don't think he'd ever have taken the hire car home either. I think he took his car to somewhere near the car hire business, took the hire car to where his own car was parked at 1am and switched to his own car, took his own car home, then went back at 8:30 to collect the hire car and return it. I wonder if his wife gave any details of his comings and goings

Except one report said cell data had him going to the woods a number of times - including the night SE was kidnapped - it said “in the early hours “ which suggests after midnight. If he went straight there he’d have been there by 11 pm ish. He stated he had been on the Ashford road in the Astra between 11 and 11.30 (which may be true) when the Rumanian gang had him pull over in a lay-by. So maybe ban aspect of truth in that. Perhaps he did pull over on a secluded lay-by to do the rape. Ended up killing her - and then had to decide what to do. So went to Hoads wood nearby to try and dispose of the body or leave it there - which would tally with him being there “early hours” on his cellphone data.
But that doesn’t make sense - because in that case he wouldn’t have transferred her body to his own car on the south coast.

I think the “early hours” statement needs to be taken with a pinch of salt because he was in Tilmanstone at 1am and home by 1.30 am - and that is what I would call early hours.

So he probably went straight to Hoads wood - or possibly stopped in the lay-by first.

 

[JuicyLucy]

Yes, I was thinking about his wife and children earlier. Once he's been sentenced, they won't have his police salary to rely on, and I'm not sure her salary alone would pay the mortgage and the cost of running the house and it's upkeep.
I wondered if they will re-locate, or maybe even move to her native Ukraine for a more healthy lifestyle. She has her family there. She'd be able to get a well paid job there and the kids aren't too old to learn a new language, they may even speak some Ukrainian already....

They've already lost his salary.

"Couzens stopped being paid as a police officer immediately following his earlier guilty pleas. This was as soon as legally possible. Internal misconduct procedures are now being progressed."

Serving Met officer pleads guilty to murder of Sarah Everard

In her shoes I would consider relocation back to Ukraine too. More family support and a higher degree of anonymity for the children. I don't know how old they are though, in terms of schooling breaks and separation from friends, nor whether they speak (or want to speak) Ukrainian. And from what I remember of the press coverage when he was arrested, she earns at least as much as him, so perhaps his salary isn't particularly part of the equation.

Long-term for the kids, the challenge is to find a way of getting out of the long shadow their father's actions have cast. Whether that would be better achieved by staying and braving the fallout, or by making a tactical withdrawal and starting afresh probably depends on the personalities involved imo.

JMO

 

[Lottiedealite]

They searched a couple of woods when they were conducting their investigation which are on the way home from Tilmanstone and I wonder if he left the hire car there overnight.

 

[Stella123]

If cell data had him at Hoads Wood in the middle of the night after SE was kidnapped it seems he did something there. Maybe he bottled out of leaving her body there or didn’t have time to sort that in the dark and needed to be back home - so left her in the car till next day. Moved her into his own car on the south coast ready to dispose of her (ugh) next day, went home in the hire car and put it in the garage. If his wife always left first in the morning they no doubt had an arrangement where her car was left accessible. Astra left locked in the garage till after she’d gone to work.

So he may have still had SE in the boot of the car when he went to B&Q to buy the builders bags next day.

 

[Stella123]

They searched a couple of woods when they were conducting their investigation which are on the way home from Tilmanstone and I wonder if he left the hire car there overnight.

I wondered about that but it would have been difficult to leave his own car there because he’d have needed it to collect the hire car in Dover so probably left his own car in Dover.

But good point. He was at Tilmanstone at 1am and home by 1.30 yet reports say his home is only 15 mins from Tilmanstone - so he may have disposed of something at the woods near Tilmanstone- her phone? Assuming he had already transferred her to his own car in Dover.

 

[CptShadow]

If he couldnt help himself at work, I cant imagine his behaviour at home.

Way back in an earlier thread, his kids' YouTube channel was briefly discussed (I presume this is OK to mention as the channel is since deleted and can't be sleuthed - but admins correct me if not and I'll delete this post).

I told myself I wasn't going to look, but curiosity got the better of me and I did. He makes about four appearances in the videos (only one of which is actually on camera).

1) The first was a video of his kids reviewing a video game and we hear a male voice in the background saying, "Oh, for F-s sake!" or something like that. We don't see who's speaking, but presume it's WC. His son then laughs and says something like "that's my dad shouting again". To be fair, this would be a fairly innocuous occurrence, and when we hear (presumably) WC, it's nothing extreme. But knowing what we know now, it does make you wonder about temper issues... (shouting "again").

2) The next was his kids touring the house and they try to go into a room (possibly the bathroom) and a male voice says something to indicate he's in the room. Very normal and reasonable sounding.

3) The next was his kids speaking to camera and eating something (ice cream maybe) and it's apparent that an adult male (presumably WC) is in the kitchen with them. We don't see him. The interaction is nothing if not normal, with him checking out that they're enjoying what they're eating. At one point he asks "is that good?" or something like that. Again - a very normal family picture.

4) The last one is where he actually appears (he's smaller than some photos would suggest). His son is presumably filming because we see WC, EC, and their daughter in a playpark. At one point, WC lifts the daughter up onto a climbing frame. Again - the picture of normality.

I think that's what's so utterly bizarre and horrifying about this. Not that this veneer of normality is surprising in itself - we know many serial killers have led 'normal'-looking lives, had families etc. But it indicates that if WC did have 'other lives', he had so far managed to keep them far away from this one.

 

[Dotta]

They've already lost his salary.

"Couzens stopped being paid as a police officer immediately following his earlier guilty pleas. This was as soon as legally possible. Internal misconduct procedures are now being progressed."

Serving Met officer pleads guilty to murder of Sarah Everard

In her shoes I would consider relocation back to Ukraine too. More family support and a higher degree of anonymity for the children. I don't know how old they are though, in terms of schooling breaks and separation from friends, nor whether they speak (or want to speak) Ukrainian. And from what I remember of the press coverage when he was arrested, she earns at least as much as him, so perhaps his salary isn't particularly part of the equation.

Long-term for the kids, the challenge is to find a way of getting out of the long shadow their father's actions have caused. Whether that would be better achieved by staying and braving the fallout, or by making a tactical withdrawal and starting afresh probably depends on the personalities involved imo.

JMO

Starting afresh is, according to me, the best option for the children. Bullying at school might ruin their psyche.

 

[Dotta]

Way back in an earlier thread, his kids' YouTube channel was briefly discussed (I presume this is OK to mention as the channel is since deleted and can't be sleuthed - but admins correct me if not and I'll delete this post).

I told myself I wasn't going to look, but curiosity got the better of me and I did. He makes about four appearances in the videos (only one of which is actually on camera).

1) The first was a video of his kids reviewing a video game and we hear a male voice in the background saying, "Oh, for F-s sake!" or something like that. We don't see who's speaking, but presume it's WC. His son then laughs and says something like "that's my dad shouting again". To be fair, this would be a fairly innocuous occurrence, and when we hear (presumably) WC, it's nothing extreme. But knowing what we know now, it does make you wonder about temper issues... (shouting "again").

2) The next was his kids touring the house and they try to go into a room (possibly the bathroom) and a male voice says something to indicate he's in the room. Very normal and reasonable sounding.

3) The next was his kids speaking to camera and eating something (ice cream maybe) and it's apparent that an adult male (presumably WC) is in the kitchen with them. We don't see him. The interaction is nothing if not normal, with him checking out that they're enjoying what they're eating. At one point he asks "is that good?" or something like that. Again - a very normal family picture.

4) The last one is where he actually appears (he's smaller than some photos would suggest). His son is presumably filming because we see WC, EC, and their daughter in a playpark. At one point, WC lifts the daughter up onto a climbing frame. Again - the picture of normality.

I think that's what's so utterly bizarre and horrifying about this. Not that this veneer of normality is surprising in itself - we know many serial killers have led 'normal'-looking lives, had families etc. But it indicates that if WC did have 'other lives', he had so far managed to keep them far away from this one.

I hope so for the sake of the kids. I earlier meant mainly the wife and their intimate life.

 

[Lucy6226]

Or not. There's not much to come back for.....
I absolutely loved the Ukraine when I was there. Long hot summers, snowy winters with lots of sports, and a more wholesome lifestyle. Less traffic and plenty to see and do there.
Maybe once she's found a job out there she might relocate. But perhaps a few things need to be put in place first.
I wish her and her children all the best.

Very different living there compared to holidaying there. There's a reason so many Ukrainians come to the UK!

 

[Lottiedealite]

So drawing his route back he came from London via the M20 which is logical and stopped at Ashford. From Ashford to get to Tilamsntone the logical route is through Capel le ferne and up to Whitfield and then down the Whitfield bypass which would miss Dover altogether. He could carry on to Dover but I would have expected MSM to have reported it as he would have been seen on camera whereas Capel to Dover is more country lanes.

I'm assuming he got seen on a camera on the bypass from Whitfield to Sandwich as Tilmanstone itself is a small village and I can't imagine he was seen actually in Tilmanstone on a camera. Most locals would use boys hill and then country roads to get home from Tilmanstone to Deal (and this is where the woods are) but the longer route is to go from the bypass towards Sandwich and then into Deal.

If the hire car was seen in Tilmanstone I don't think he would have got from there into Dover (near the garage presumably) and home again in 30 minutes so it suggests that his car was somewhere on that route home.

I don't think any of us can understand the logistics of how he got to and from the hire place and where he left his car at the moment and hopefully it becomes clear.

 

[cestmoi]

Re: WC’s wife: In discussions, I have heard a couple of people say that “she must have known”, because all subtle clues become obvious in hindsight, but I think it more likely she is the victim of a masterful liar. A combination of his ability to lie, and the lack of time they must have had together in their normal routines. I read the article where she was interviewed and was struck with how much courage and strength she seems to have. Either she is a remarkably resilient woman or she does have great support around her, or both. I was impressed with how she has told her children and is determined to come through this nightmare. She seems intelligent and child-centred.

Regarding WC’s “two separate lives” I think they bled together in the workplace (i.e. being nicknamed The Rapist) because in that setting professionals are trained to spot deviance and listen to their instincts, perhaps to a higher degree than the general public. So they are more likely to get a feeling that something is off (which they did) but not necessarily have specific evidence to make any formal comment about it.

 

[annpats]

Very different living there compared to holidaying there. There's a reason so many Ukrainians come to the UK!

True, although most of them come here for economic reasons, not lifestyle.
Their mother is a scientist, so would be able to get a well paid job there, so they would have a good middle-class life. A lower population, less crime, less crowded and more wholesome and family-orientated. If I was in her position, I know where I'd choose.

I do worry about the 2 children, and just hope they won't be bullied at school. Other children can be vicious.

 

[Stella123]

So drawing his route back he came from London via the M20 which is logical and stopped at Ashford. From Ashford to get to Tilamsntone the logical route is through Capel le ferne and up to Whitfield and then down the Whitfield bypass which would miss Dover altogether. He could carry on to Dover but I would have expected MSM to have reported it as he would have been seen on camera whereas Capel to Dover is more country lanes.

I'm assuming he got seen on a camera on the bypass from Whitfield to Sandwich as Tilmanstone itself is a small village and I can't imagine he was seen actually in Tilmanstone on a camera. Most locals would use boys hill and then country roads to get home from Tilmanstone to Deal (and this is where the woods are) but the longer route is to go from the bypass towards Sandwich and then into Deal.

If the hire car was seen in Tilmanstone I don't think he would have got from there into Dover (near the garage presumably) and home again in 30 minutes so it suggests that his car was somewhere on that route home.

I don't think any of us can understand the logistics of how he got to and from the hire place and where he left his car at the moment and hopefully it becomes clear.

That is interesting - especially as you know the area. I assumed he would take the fastest route if needing to be back home that night without too many excuses to make, and just carried on on the M20 to Dover, where the hire car place is (and presumably where he left his car). From there the road to Tilmanstone is a fast looking A road - so the other way round - straight from Dover up the A256 to Tilmanstone then turn off right into Deal on the smaller roads.

What is the coastal road from Dover to Deal like? On the map it looks a lot quicker, but maybe a slow road? If he went out of his way to go the Tilmanstone route it may be because of the woods at Betteshanger. He had about 10 minutes or so to discard something there. Maybe the phone?

Most of the reports just say he was tracked out of London and into Kent and sighted at Tilmanstone at 1am. But he can't have gone straight to Tilmanstone as there are a couple of hours missing. So it does sound like cameras only picked him up leaving London and at Tilmanstone, and the rest was worked out by his cell data. I did read somewhere his cell data placed him at Hoads wood "in the early hours" of 4th March, as well as over the next few days, but can't remember where.

As you say - we probably won't know all the details until more is released (or he talks). But it does sound like his car was on the south coast near the car hire place in Dover.

It's possible he could have stopped to get rid of a few items on his way home - the A265 does go in the direction of the BCB garage and tunnels, as well as Betteshanger Woods. But he can't have stopped for long.

Maybe the camera siting at Tilmanstone was on the A265 near Tilmanstone. Although it does say CCTV as well as ANPR cameras.

The Wandsworth Guardian says this about the car

"The court heard investigators are still analysing scientific evidence relating to Couzens’ own car, into which he transferred Ms Everard from the hire car he used to kidnap her.

Prosecutor Tom Little QC said: “That may seek to establish where it was that Sarah Everard was raped and where she was murdered.”

Metropolitan Pc Wayne Couzens could die behind bars for Sarah Everard murder

 

[Stella123]

It's in My London

"Even though Couzens' phone was wiped, cell site data linked him to both the place she was abducted and the area where her body was eventually found in woodland near Ashford in Kent, which is around 100 metres from land owned by Couzens.

His phone was located there in the early hours of March 4 and in the days leading up to his eventual arrest on March 9."

B&Q trip helped police prove Sarah Everard killer Wayne Couzens was guilty

So it sounds like - Astra was picked up on camera leaving London heading for Kent and then about 3 and a half hours later at Tilmanstone half an hour before he got home.

The rest of his whereabouts came from his cell data from his phone. So in that case the Investigators must know which route he took from his cell data. And all they've said is he transferred her to his own car on the south coast and it sounds like they assume she was already dead by then as they say the car analysis may give answers as to where she was raped and murdered (maybe soil samples from Hoads wood eg?) as well as anything else they've found. They must be using special scientific equipment to analyse samples or something.

 

[Newthoughts]

Again can't remember which report it was, but the Rumanian gang story sounded plausible until (I think) they found he bought the plastic sheeting in advance. Technically that may have just been to hide a kidnap. But they also had all the cell data of his visits to Hoads Wood.

I must admit I couldn't imagine any organised crime group accepting or requesting an ordinary abducted woman with a life and friends and family. In a world with desperate refugees, people smuggling, young women and girls in care and addicts and runaways - I don't think they'd risk the sort of police attention that would come with him abducting someone like Sarah. Not with a ready supply of the unmissed.

What I could believe is them going after him for money or bribing him to give info on possible raids in a Line of Duty bent copper way. Even then tho his specialized role in parliamentary protection would make him less useful to them than an ordinary cop. Unless of course they used him to supply women that he'd come across in the unmissed category (easy to pick up runaways, or ex care home, or illegal immigrants with a warrant card) and Sarah was a huge mistake.

 

[Stella123]

True, although most of them come here for economic reasons, not lifestyle.
Their mother is a scientist, so would be able to get a well paid job there, so they would have a good middle-class life. A lower population, less crime, less crowded and more wholesome and family-orientated. If I was in her position, I know where I'd choose.

I do worry about the 2 children, and just hope they won't be bullied at school. Other children can be vicious.

True. She has a good job and presumably a much better income in the Uk. It may take time for her to decide whether to stay her or return to the Ukraine. A difficult decision. She did say the other Mums at school were very supportive. But yes kids can get bullied by other kids over things like that. I am sure the school are keeping an eye on it.

Horrific to grow up with that though - knowing your Dad is in prison for murder.

I would hope she is getting some financial support from the Police Benevolent fund or something. After all, she is a victim too.

 

[Stella123]

Another thought - if he'd pleaded not guilty, he'd have continued to get paid until the trial was over - which may have helped his family. Sounds like he was more interested in protecting himself by trying to get a lesser sentence by admitting guilt. I hope they don't reduce his sentence for that (doesn't sound like that's likely).

 

[Stella123]

Digging up entire woods doesn't sound very realistic

No it doesn't! Maybe the area of land he owned though and the immediate vicinity - or some kind of ground detector used to see what else is buried there.