SC - Paul Murdaugh, 22 and mom Margaret, 52, found shot to death, Islandton, 7 June 2021 #3

[sunshineray]

Thank you!!!

Welcome

 

[Colorado303]

When reading the SLED filing that explains why specific sections were redacted I found this statement on a vehicle seizure form to be the most interesting:

“The redacted information provides details about the vehicles found at the crime scene, the manner of injury to the victims and the firearms seized.”

My first thought was someone must have been injured or run over by the vehicle and a gun must have been found inside the car. But this explanation would also be accurate if the form simply said they were taking the car to examine bullet holes to confirm they are consistent w/the guns found on the scene believed to be the ones w/which PM and MM were shot.

Also, is the redaction next to “force used” section in one of the forms the reason for believing there was forced entry? If so, the redacted word(s) may have been “none” or “none apparent”. Or it may have been “lock broken”, “window smashed” or “explosive used”. It’s impossible to tell.

Going through this little exercise convinced me that however much the general public may misinterpret redacted information, it can’t be as bad as what the general public will come up with as folks theorize the meaning behind the “reasons for redactions”.

If they really want to avoid the public misconstruing what happened, just release the actual facts. IMO it’s fine if they leave names out and hold back a few details only the killer would know, and of course anything that would truly jeopardize the investigation or endanger witnesses. But even if all that stays secret, there’s an awful lot of information left.

 

[Elley Mae]

https://www.islandpacket.com/article252778263.html

"Police seized firearms from the crime scene where Paul and Maggie Murdaugh were killed last month, and they may be investigating “forced entry” onto the property, according to a court document filed Wednesday."

"Those details emerged in a log filed by the state defending its heavy redactions of police reports from the crime scene. They are part of a lawsuit that accuses the S.C. Law Enforcement Division of violating the Freedom of Information Act by overly censoring police reports relating to the Murdaugh murders."

>snipped<

• SLED blacked out details about “forced entry” and “force used.” The agency said it did so because it revealed “details about the manner in which the crime [was] committed.”

Also:

"SLED has provided no information regarding suspects, motives or how the murders happened. SLED has said it remains silent to preserve the integrity of the investigation.

But if the circuit judge finds that SLED violated FOIA law by overly redacting the reports, the agency may be forced to release more details."

Sounds like the weapons are the M’s, gun safe broke into? Or someone forced to open safe. Idk

 

[Elley Mae]

https://www.islandpacket.com/news/local/crime/article252778263.html?#storylink=cpy

This says that a driver from a towing company took a black Suburban from the property. The owner of the towing company said his driver told him that he didn't see blood or bullet holes.

If you look at the 1st page from the Sheriff's Office letter it says: Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. Nonnegligent manslaughter?!

SLED also says it redacted the name of a possible witness to the homicides.

Nonnegligent manslaughter, pretty much means intentional murder, this was not a mistake.

 

[stmarysmead]

Murder and non- intentional manslaughter is one of the categories of the National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS)

It is an incident-based reporting system used by law enforcement agencies in the United States for collecting and reporting data on crimes. Local, state and federal agencies generate NIBRS data from their records management systems.

View attachment 304872

National Incident-Based Reporting System - Wikipedia

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.ijis.org/resource/resmgr/ncs-x/nibrs_offenses_with_mandator.pdf

Thanks for this very helpful explanation.

Because of this post, I went to the SLED online manual and found the following information. If I’m reading this correctly…we can rule out burglary, robbery… because it would be coded as well on their reports.

https://www.sled.sc.gov/forms/cjis/SCIBRS_Manual.pdf

2 Classifying Offenses

For SCIBRS, LEAs must report all offenses within a particular crime. For example, an incident can include the crimes of Rape, Motor Vehicle Theft, and Kidnapping/Abduction. LEAs must ensure each reported offense is a separate, distinct crime and not just a part of another offense. For example, every robbery includes some type of assault, but because the assault is an element integral to the crime of Robbery, the LEA should report only Robbery. However, if during a robbery the offender forces the victim to engage in sexualrelations, then the LEA should report both Robbery and Rape since forced sexual intercourse is not an element of the crime of Robbery.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

One thing I find odd about this case is how LE could so quickly state they “secured the crime scene” or how AM could be sure his brothers would be safe coming there?

The place is huge with the main house a few football fields away and vast stretches of woods, etc. How could AM a know there wouldn’t be snipers watching from some hidden vantage point?

As for LE, I think it would take a small army fanning out when they first arrived, to feel the place was “secured.” Anyone remember when in the time in the released LE statements that they made that statement?

I realize AM was in shock…but calling his brothers to come right away to that isolated huge expanse…reminds me a bit of the Ramseys reading the ransom note. It said “we are watching…if you call LE, your child dies.”

So they called their best friends and told them all to hurry over at 6am in the morning.

Excellent points, IMO.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

#1 is definitely viable and LE knew immediately it was a revenge killing for SS and possibly MB.

A message left at the scene might have prompted LE to say the property was clear of intruders, the public was safe, and the SS investigation would be reopened.

Has it been reported that there was a message left and, if so, how would AM know it wasn't a ruse to make him feel relaxed enough to stay so the 'perp(s)' could finish the job? AM wouldn't have any idea. Nor could he trust a killer(s).

 

[Ray_of_hope]

The opposite would be enabling. Highly likely that his issues would be unending in a situation with no consequences. When someone is a threat to others that has to be dealt with simply from an ethical and moral standpoint.

Exactly, and the lack of consequences clearly demonstrate the lack of ethics and morals.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

So if they were targeted…it’s kind of odd that this happened at the kennels. Wouldn’t someone planning this expect that the most likely place to find the family at that time of night…particularly in the rain…would be at the main house? The situation with the Father was an unplanned emergency, known 0nly in the family.

Unless they fed the dogs at that time each night….in which case the killers knew them and their routine very well.

But feeding the dogs at 9pm seems off to me too. These are very social people. That’s an odd time, an interruptive time, to set a feeding schedule for the dogs. …right when you’d usually could be out for the evening or entertaining.

I still have this feeling that PM and MM encountered some situation as they drove in that night that escalated spontaneously. The location of the killing really bothers me.

True and as for speculation that it was a revenge killing; why wouldn't the killer(s) wait for the trial to play out? There was always the chance that there would be justice if not in the criminal then in the civil trial where a guilty verdict and monetary remedy could really hurt the M family. Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[T rex]

These crimes have such a tight schedule.

Somewhere between 9pm and 9:30pm, the murders are committed.

Snipped by me.

It just occurred to me that LE probably used the gps and cameras from the M's vehicle's to narrow down the timeline. Im sure their vehicles would have these features, most do nowadays.

 

[moonriverfarm]

I think we can all agree that SOMETHING is being covered up by LE here. The question is - why?

 

[Watts Bar]

I don't see why they're including who found the bodies in the redactions when its been said that AM found them and called 911 to report it? Why include something that you admitted by saying AM called 911?

I think we can all agree that SOMETHING is being covered up by LE here. The question is - why?

I think one possibility is that someone else was there that night, someone who wasn’t “supposed” to be there. But if so, it may be irrelevant in terms of the crime itself.

 

[sunshineray]

When reading the SLED filing that explains why specific sections were redacted I found this statement on a vehicle seizure form to be the most interesting:

“The redacted information provides details about the vehicles found at the crime scene, the manner of injury to the victims and the firearms seized.”

My first thought was someone must have been injured or run over by the vehicle and a gun must have been found inside the car. But this explanation would also be accurate if the form simply said they were taking the car to examine bullet holes to confirm they are consistent w/the guns found on the scene believed to be the ones w/which PM and MM were shot.

Also, is the redaction next to “force used” section in one of the forms the reason for believing there was forced entry? If so, the redacted word(s) may have been “none” or “none apparent”. Or it may have been “lock broken”, “window smashed” or “explosive used”. It’s impossible to tell.

Going through this little exercise convinced me that however much the general public may misinterpret redacted information, it can’t be as bad as what the general public will come up with as folks theorize the meaning behind the “reasons for redactions”.

If they really want to avoid the public misconstruing what happened, just release the actual facts. IMO it’s fine if they leave names out and hold back a few details only the killer would know, and of course anything that would truly jeopardize the investigation or endanger witnesses. But even if all that stays secret, there’s an awful lot of information left.

Someone just recently posted an article, last few pages, where the reporter talked to the tow truck owner. Tow truck driver said no blood or bullet holes , that he could see, on the vehicle he towed from the scene.

 

[Warwick7]

True and as for speculation that it was a revenge killing; why wouldn't the killer(s) wait for the trial to play out? There was always the chance that there would be justice if not in the criminal then in the civil trial where a guilty verdict and monetary remedy could really hurt the M family. Just doesn't make sense to me.

BBM and it is an excellent question. Paul was awaiting trial on three felony boating charges stemming from the crash.

 

[Diddian]

I was thinking the same thing. Or maybe someone was with AM? I can’t recall if it was ever stated that he arrived alone. (I know I assumed he did.)
Still curious about that “Gibson 27” form that was completed by Colleton County Sheriff’s Office in the list of redacted docs that SLED released. No idea what it is, but interesting I think bc Paul Gibson is or was one of the attorneys for Parker’s.
*Not necessarily the same person. But reading through the most recent info., it does seem like someone else may have been there. All MOO

That isn't the only "Gibson" in the Murdaugh orbit.

The Murdaugh's were reportedly not staying at their Hampton home at 515 Holly St E. If you pull up that address on a satellite map, you can see that house and a few others are on sizable (1 acre or more) town properties which all adjoin a large, central wooded area on the east end of the town of Hampton.

A person with a curious bent of mind can use Spokeo.com ("Who lives on ____ St?") to identify the names of the residents of the other homes on large properties which adjoin those woods and which are in the "500" block (i.e., homes with addresses like 5xx Jackson St E - the north side of those woods - as well as those like 5xx Holly St E - the south side of those woods). That information is publicly available. One of those homes recently sold on 5/18/21.

So if this Gibson was a close neighbor or a former close neighbor, perhaps it would be someone PM or MM might have called for help if a need arose when AM was too far away and in the middle of taking his father to the hospital? Or, if not that, perhaps it would be someone AM took with him when he went to Moselle if he had been trying to reach PM and MM by phone without success and was concerned and didn't want to go without help along.

I agree with you that "Gibson 27" likely means LE had an interest in a person with that last name for some reason or that person was some kind of witness (I suspect that 27 might be a background check document and that 29 might be a criminal history check document). However, it could be that it is not the attorney you mention, but is instead someone else named "Gibson" that attached document relates to - the former neighbor being only one such possibility. IMO.

ETA: In any case, best not to go too far down the road with any such assumptions until there is more clarity on the subject - either through LE releases or MSM.

 

[stmarysmead]

BBM and it is an excellent question. Paul was awaiting trial on three felony boating charges stemming from the crash.

I agree that it is an excellent question and one that puzzles me as well.

Do these hunting lodges have an outbuilding where the guns are kept? Maybe where the boots and hunting clothes are stored? I’m asking because I wonder if guns would be handy in that kennel area?

 

[sunshineray]

"State agents have released little information on their investigation and a lawyer seemed to suggest the probe isn't focused on any particular person or theory on what could have happened. If the wrong information is released, it might affect the memories of witnesses or prevent agents from catching people they question in lies."

Murdaugh case: SC police defend withholding details double homicide

 

[Ray_of_hope]

And me.

And me.

 

[Razz]

I agree that it is an excellent question and one that puzzles me as well.

Do these hunting lodges have an outbuilding where the guns are kept? Maybe where the boots and hunting clothes are stored? I’m asking because I wonder if guns would be handy in that kennel area?

If so, one would think they'd need to be safely locked away. I wouldn't keep guns stored anywhere that wasn't air conditioned or securely locked up.
And if anyone had broken into a gun safe, wouldn't that have been in the heavily redacted report?

 

[Cryptic]

Do these hunting lodges have an outbuilding where the guns are kept? Maybe where the boots and hunting clothes are stored? I’m asking because I wonder if guns would be handy in that kennel area?

Possible, but unlikely.

My general idea is that hunting lodges come in two flavors:
A. Those run commercially where paying guests stay and hunt various animals
B. Those maintained for private use.

Commercial lodges could well have a gun room as the owners would be leery about accidental discharges etc.
But, even relatively modest hunting rifles and shotguns owned by those wealthy enough for lodge rentals, guide fees, tips etc. etc. can be worth 1-3K. Entry level luxury prices then take over. The sky is the limit for high end luxury guns.

As a result, my bet is that a secure gun room would be in the main house for a commercial lodge simply to settle guest's minds regarding the safekeeping of their weapons.

Private family and friends type lodges might have, or might not have formal gun rooms. But, my guess is that any gun safe or gun room would also be in the main house for the same reasons.

At the end of the day, the family is wealthy and members enjoy hunting. Thus, even modest "starter" guns may still be on track to be worth thousands.