Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #6

[Grouse]

Loved ones would rather someone left them involuntarily than on purpose.

SBM. And also perhaps a subconscious desire not to admit to himself that what she was doing, and in which he had encouraged her, was possibly dangerous (from an accident perspective)?

 

[The_Investigator]

I'm all of a sudden in awe at the trail runner who was running (up?) this thing when s/he spotted the skull. In my dreams...

I’m a trail runner, but spend 50% of the run walking up the hills lol.

 

[Grouse]

I don't think she wanted to return to her life, which meant house sitting in France and soon returning to London with no money and no future. What was she going to do - stand on a street corner in London and ask people for fruit? Her lifestyle of 6 years was asking strangers for fruit. Not surprising she was afraid to go home.

SBM.

Otto, I don't think they were planning to return to the UK, it's been discussed up thread that one of the options they were considering was to apply for residency in France, and would probably have had no difficulty in getting it.

Also I've seen no evidence at all that they were out of funds.

As for the going back to the house sitting in France, they'd done this before at the same place at Larroque-Sur-L'Osse, during lockdown 1.0, and from postings on SM I saw she seemed quite content doing that, getting out on their bikes, gathering fruit etc, biding their time until the next adventure

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"We might not be off climbing mountains during this #lockdown2020 but we've found a good use for Dan's surefootedness. As we are seeing on now an almost daily basis when we don't resist the curb on our freedom to travel and instead focus on what other opportunities there are to appreciate #simplepleasures all around us, life is providing us with some very #awesome and in this case very lucrative #fruity #adventures right on our very doorstep! "

 

[Steve13]

Not sure if you are being serious or not, but FWIW I live in the UK and I have had good reasons over the years to distrust our tabloid press, the treatment of Christopher Jefferies, and the News International phone-hacking scandal to name a couple.

In the Esther Dingley case they do seem to have handled things more carefully, but some of the comments I've seen below articles by "readers" have been appalling.

Hmmm. I'm sure you're aware of the learning experience Websleuths had with the Jefferies case; I imagine that's one of the reasons for the strict admin here. It was quite a long time ago, as was the phone hacking in the UK (not all NoW of course). We all live and learn, including media folks. But I do hope you agree that the media coverage in Esther's case has been really good and positive. I hope we can encourage that, given that journos do read here. Also, I'm guessing that most people contributing here also read newspapers (or their websites), and may even occasionally leave contributions below the line?

 

[OEJ-JEO]

Could you maybe cite some French examples where LE has pursued a criminal inquiry in a "missing hiker found deceased" case without a tip that a crime might have taken place?

One case that comes to mind as having some similarities with the disappearance of Esther Dingley is the disappearance of Blake Hartley in Chamonix in 2004. There are many differences too, of course, but the similarities illustrate the protocols followed by the French authorities in a search for a missing person both before and after remains are found.

Blake Hartley was a young officer cadet in the British army who disappeared in Chamonix in the French alps in August 2004 while returning to his campsite after a night out. The story is described in some detail here: blakehartley.com

Following a period of intense searching using foot patrols, dogs, divers and helicopters, efforts were scaled back until conditions permitted sections of the river below his last known location to be searched more thoroughly with police dogs, divers, and a team of search and rescue police. Sluices and filters were drained and searched. This took place in the winter and spring following his disappearance when water levels were lower. At no point was there evidence of foul play.

In early 2007, a member of the public who had reported seeing a body in the river Arve found a single human femur among debris on a riverbank 60km downstream of Chamonix near Bonneville. At that point a procureur (a local magistrate) was appointed to conduct an inquiry, and further searches were carried out by police along the sections of river where the remains had been found. Again, there was no evidence of foul play. The remains were identified as belonging to Blake Hartley, and following further investigation, were released to his family in early 2008. The case was then closed by the procureur of Bonneville. A further inquest was held in the UK in May 2008, and an open verdict was recorded.

I hope this gives a sense of the procedures followed by the French authorities and the timescales involved. The similarities in the case of Esther Dingley are clear. A period of intense searching followed her disappearance. Further searches were carried out as conditions permitted. When remains were found, a procureur was appointed to conduct the inquiry, and searches resumed to attempt to establish the circumstances and cause of death. None of this suggests any suspicion of foul play, but it's the duty of the procureur to keep an open mind.

 

[Steve13]

I can see there's a strong 'accident' combined with 'DC was in denial about being left by ED' thesis being developed here. I feel like that's a narrative encouraged by the PR org LBT (MOO). I have voiced doubts about LBT's competence before. Today, I see that their release about Esther includes a paragraph about a completely different case, Nora Quoirin, presumably transposed in error. It's a pretty slipshod amateur set up and I'm cautious about trusting its references and sources.

I don't diss the accident theory, then, but now prefer to give more weight to DC having the right instincts about ED's fate. It's worthwhile, therefore, to re-examine the inconsistencies in what LBT, which seeks to be the main info gatekeeper, has put out.

I'll start with this one detail. The LBT dossier (scroll down from link above and see 'dossier') insists that Esther was reported missing on 25 Nov. Some media reports insist the cops say it was 24 Nov. This difference is significant. First, if it was 24th, DC's failure to report ED missing may be more understandable as it was only 2 nights not 3. Second, this would negate the importance of the missing evidence that 25th was the all-important return date which triggered DC's report. It's odd, at face value, that there should any doubt, though. Any thoughts, anyone?

 

[touch]

I have voiced doubts about LBT's competence before. Today, I see that their release about Esther includes a paragraph about a completely different case, Nora Quoirin, presumably transposed in error. It's a pretty slipshod amateur set up and I'm cautious about trusting its references and sources.

That's a reading error on your part, not a transposing error on their part.
The recent media release relating to ED ends at the word "ENDS". It's then followed by another recent media release relating to another missing person. (Which also finishes at the word "ENDS" and there are more related to ED further down the page)

 

[RickshawFan]

“If she was heading to the Refuge de la Glere…
Refuge de laGlere is nowhere near the area. It’s much further into France near the lac de la glere.

Correct. That doesn't mean ED knew that, though. One of them problems of confusing athleticism with experience is that you can miscalculate what you're able to do, given the on-ground situation. And if you don't have a big paper topo map that shows where things like the refuge are relative to terrain, it would be way too easy to do just that. ED could have thought she'd get to the top of p de la g, and then easy hike to the Refuge, since she's a good hiker. IMO good hiking skills were irrelevant on this trip.

 

[RickshawFan]

RSBM

Do you mean if there is a a scree slide?

We used to jump down these a bit like skiing as kids. IMO it's reasonably easy to stop unless the scree slope itself starts moving - in which case you are in trouble. The main thing I remember about descending these was making sure there was not a big bluff at the end

I guess if it is super step and icy she might have bounced down it

I, too, have moonwalked down a scree slope. There's not a snow ball's chance in hell I'd moonwalk down the P de la G. I can't even tell what the scree is like, big pieces, gravel size....

You can also really easily have an accident if you're moonwalking down scree. You can also destroy your legs. I practically had to go to bed for days...

And then there's the matter of the pack....

But moonwalking down scree is not the same as falling down it. There are a lot of mountain accidents descending scree (same with climbers on snow).

 

[RickshawFan]

http://robertetlespyrenees.kazeo.com/pic-de-sacroux-2676-m-et-pic-de-la-glere-2496-m-a120142244

I read this account of the hike up to Port de la Glere from Hospital last night and the on up to the peak. It’s in French but easily readable if you stick into Google and trans to English. It talks about how slippery it is (in summer) and needing an ice axe.

Good find.
It is rated difficult. I think ED may have gone up that way, but misjudged her athleticism and the terrain. She might have thought it was pretty much like the trail up to the Port de la V from the Cabane de Besurtas. This might have caused her to get very late to P de la Glere, and things went badly from there.

 

[sarahboirin]

Otto, I don't think they were planning to return to the UK, it's been discussed up thread that one of the options they were considering was to apply for residency in France, and would probably have had no difficulty in getting it.

SBM - ED with a Dutch passport would have had no problem in France with the new residency rules but DC, as a UK citizen, would need 5 years of residency (with proof) for the Brexit Permit.

 

[RickshawFan]

The most bizarre story I heard was about sea level Australians who camped in the Great White North forest and they were attached by bears. They launched a lawsuit against the federal government demanding that bears be penned up so people could camp open - bivouac - in bear country.

Snipped for focus.
Funnily enough, in the Smokeys, they pen people up! You are required to sleep in a pen in the backcountry (the shelters have pens around them). The bears do whatever they want. You can imagine there are struggles with this....

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Good find.
It is rated difficult. I think ED may have gone up that way, but misjudged her athleticism and the terrain. She might have thought it was pretty much like the trail up to the Port de la V from the Cabane de Besurtas. This might have caused her to get very late to P de la Glere, and things went badly from there.

I think this seems like the most likely scenario and reckon old Occam would agree, too. She headed west, maybe chasing the sunset, and lost light earlier than she thought she would. Stumbled and fell, or found a sheltered area to stop. I really, really hope they find her belongings, it’s going to be the biggest clue.

 

[RickshawFan]

Not sure if you are being serious or not, but FWIW I live in the UK and I have had good reasons over the years to distrust our tabloid press, the treatment of Christopher Jefferies, and the News International phone-hacking scandal to name a couple.

In the Esther Dingley case they do seem to have handled things more carefully, but some of the comments I've seen below articles by "readers" have been appalling.

I guess the issues of tabloid drama are something an outfit like LBT needs to weigh. If you encourage the media by strategically feeding them sparks of information, PR, interviews, etc. so the case won't be forgotten, you run the risk of lighting a forest fire and having the media set their front pages ablaze.

Actually, has there been anything in the media that isn't re-hashed LBT and/or DC statements? I don't mean in the comments. I mean in the articles.

It's been my impression that the media (even the tabloids) have been quite generous and deferential to DC and LBT in this case. I haven't seen anything especially inflammatory.

 

[Grouse]

Actually, has there been anything in the media that isn't re-hashed LBT and/or DC statements? I don't mean in the comments. I mean in the articles.

Well there was the lady who saw the light in the campervan, and the people who thought ED looked sad in a shop - both stories probably commissioned for cash from members of the public.

It's been my impression that the media (even the tabloids) have been quite generous and deferential to DC and LBT in this case. I haven't seen anything especially inflammatory.

I would tend to agree with that, as I said in my post.

 

[Grouse]

SBM - ED with a Dutch passport would have had no problem in France with the new residency rules but DC, as a UK citizen, would need 5 years of residency (with proof) for the Brexit Permit.

That is not my understanding ---> . Moving to France After Brexit | French-Property.com

"UK nationals living in France at the end of the transition period need to obtain a residence permit, but in the vast majority of cases it will be a formality. "

"Those who have lived in France for at least 5 years are entitled to a residence permit of 10 years validity stating: 'Séjour permanent - Article 50 TUE/Article 18(1) Accord de retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'UE'."

"Those who have lived in France less than 5 years are entitled to a residence permit of 5 years validity, stating 'Article 50 TUE/Article 18(1) Accord de retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'UE'."​

BBM

 

[sarahboirin]

That is not my understanding ---> . Moving to France After Brexit | French-Property.com

"UK nationals living in France at the end of the transition period need to obtain a residence permit, but in the vast majority of cases it will be a formality. "

"Those who have lived in France for at least 5 years are entitled to a residence permit of 10 years validity stating: 'Séjour permanent - Article 50 TUE/Article 18(1) Accord de retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'UE'."

"Those who have lived in France less than 5 years are entitled to a residence permit of 5 years validity, stating 'Article 50 TUE/Article 18(1) Accord de retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'UE'."​

BBM

I am a UK national and have lived in France for 15 years, to get my residence permit I needed to prove that I have lived here for at least 5 years. That proof is tax returns, household bills, payslips etc. I'm not aware that ED and DC had actually been deemed resident or lived in France.

Living in France

 

[Grouse]

I am a UK national and have lived in France for 15 years, to get my residence permit I needed to prove that I have lived here for at least 5 years. That proof is tax returns, household bills, payslips etc. I'm not aware that ED and DC had actually been deemed resident in France.

Living in France

OK, fair enough you are in the best position to know about this.

From the online documentation I have seen/quoted though it doesn't seem very clear to me about that, so I guess the only thing relevant is what ED/DC thought at the time rather than the reality of the requirements. It's irrelevant now whether or not their application would have failed.

ETA: one thing you mentioned is interesting - household bills. I'm pretty sure I read that the arrangement at the place they were house sitting at (and had been on and off since around early 2019) was that they paid utility bills. This does seem possibly consistent with an attempt/intention to establish some sort of claim to residency.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I am a UK national and have lived in France for 15 years, to get my residence permit I needed to prove that I have lived here for at least 5 years. That proof is tax returns, household bills, payslips etc. I'm not aware that ED and DC had actually been deemed resident or lived in France.

Living in France

The reality is, that was irrelevant anyway to ED as she was still a European resident. They weren’t renting or anything else and DC could have avoided the paperwork if needed by returning home every so often. It’s pretty irrelevant in the case.

 

[RickshawFan]

Now I see, @otto. I'm actually thinking of a different Refuge than the one called Refuge de la Glere. Stay tuned.


Later: I'm thinking of the Cabane du Cirque de la Glère
Stay tuned: I'll write more....I keep getting distracted by things like FAB surround-maps.