CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #3

[SpideySense]

Interesting theory. Not sure avid hikers and other recreationalists (hunters, etc.) would agree on the conclusion about more experience = increase in risk taking.

Really hard to get good feedback from the subjects who need to be interviewed re: what (if anything) they would do differently since, well, they are no longer with us.

Don't want to appear argumentative but outdoor recreation is not optional for a lot of us. It is the way we make a soul connection with our planet, our God, etc. Everyone weighs risk differently. To me, conclusions like this are not helpful at all.

I especially do not like the emphasis on not hiking alone. About 95% of all my outdoor recreation since 1994 has been done alone. I have developed good intuition and follow it. But if I die out there, so be it. Not wanting to, but could never live a life without some level of outdoor risk, since it is inherent in the activity.

Just my humble 2 cents.

MOO
Thank you for sharing that. I agree wholeheartedly. We all have different ways of living life and being in nature (or choosing not to). Other posters with substantial hiking experience have said that they know their limits, they know what they can and can’t do, and they don’t get themselves into dangerous heat situations. Jonathan and Ellen deserve the benefit of the doubt that they, as experienced hikers, similarly knew that this hike was within the limits of what they, their baby, and their dog could do.
MOO

 

[SpideySense]

So I've read today in the Daily Mail that they're now considering a lightning strike as a possible cause of death.

Wouldn't being struck by lightning cause some kind of visible injuries of sorts? Scorch or burn marks? Or wouldn't the ground be scorched or burnt in the area where the lightning struck if it did indeed strike an area of ground they were walking upon?

I assume that if lightning is being touted as a possible theory then they're going down the lines of the type of lightning strike where it affects a whole section of ground (and subsequently those stood on that area of ground), as opposed to something that would attract a direct lightning bolt strike such as an isolated structure of height like a human being.

Also, what kind of circumference can a lightning strike cover across an area of ground? I know Ellen was found a fair distance away - you'd think that they would've been closer together for them all to have been killed by the strike.

Perhaps they'd seen lightning in the distance and decided to spread out a bit for safety? They were experienced hikers, so maybe they recognised that they were in an exposed and potentially very dangerous position, and the only way to mitigate against this was to spread out?

Dad was found in a seated position: perhaps he was sitting down because it's a common misconception that making yourself 'small' helps reduce the risk of being struck by lightning?

I'm not sure of his height, but he looks fairly tall on the images I've seen. Carrying a baby carrier on his back could have made him concerned that this was increasing his mass and therefore putting him more at risk of attracting a direct lightning strike. So maybe he sat down, took off the baby carrier, and had the baby next to him to reduce his height?

MOO

Does anyone know when the toxicology reports are due back?

*Edited to correct bad grammar *

Hi there! There’s been a lot of discussion about lightning, lots of info about ground strike, forensic evidence, and I posted some images of a storm cell near them that day. I’d repeat it all for you to save you the trouble of looking back through 3 separate threads, but it’s just too much info. Maybe search the term “lightning”?

I believe it was lightning that killed them all, and a ground strike - not a direct strike. I had the same thought as you - that Dad may have been found sitting because he’d been crouching to lower his profile.

Lots of interesting theories in these threads!

 

[Smokingun]

Aside from that, like Ultraviolet said, why not let the dog go (if it was tethered like one report said)?

IMO from what I have researched, I believe Oski was EC’s dog prior to marriage (IG, etc), so I’m thinking he was closer to her. If she was going to get help, she would’ve likely left him with JG to avoid further complication and prevent him from following her. All my own speculation…

 

[kittythehare]

Hi there! There’s been a lot of discussion about lightning, lots of info about ground strike, forensic evidence, and I posted some images of a storm cell near them that day. I’d repeat it all for you to save you the trouble of looking back through 3 separate threads, but it’s just too much info. Maybe search the term “lightning”?

I believe it was lightning that killed them all, and a ground strike - not a direct strike. I had the same thought as you - that Dad may have been found sitting because he’d been crouching to lower his profile.

Lots of interesting theories in these threads!

From 2018

Keraunopathology is the study of lightning-induced pathology or damage, (from the Greek: keraunos, thunderbolt + pathology). It is estimated that there are approximately 6000 to 24 000 lightning fatalities per year globally (8). Underreporting of lightning fatalities may be due to multiple factors including failure to report and misdiagnosis. It is important, therefore, for forensic pathologists to be familiar with lightning and lightning strike deaths.

It's worth read.

Lightning and the Forensic Pathologist

 

[Seni]

So here's a question/thought... It was noted somewhere along the way that the family wasn't disturbed by wildlife. I would guess that the daytime temperatures caused wildlife to stay sheltered, but it did cool down overnight, yet even then wildlife didn't make an appearance? I've been of the opinion that this was all heat-related, but the fact that typical scavengers stayed away gives me pause. MOO.

Yeah. Creepy. But so many times thee

MOO
I agree with you 100% about it not lasting long, thank god. The mornings and evenings are always cool. And the heat index just isn’t the same as humid places. I wondered if folks were writing from places with different types of heat.

I lived in NY for 20 years and dreaded a 90F day there with high humidity that could send the heat index well over 100F (and that lasted into the night) way more than a 105F day in CA. With dry heat, you can spritz and cool down. With humid heat, you’re already soaked from sweat and nothing evaporates. It’s suffocating and overwhelms people.

MOO

Bolded for emphasis

I disagree here as regards humid tropical heat. IME it is easier to deal with tropical heat than with very dry high temperatures.

Very high temperatures include a visit to the Lebanon and Jordan plus+40

 

[woods]

Can anyone access this new article: Officials still seek answers in death of local family | Mariposa Gazette

 

[kittythehare]

I really have a hard time believing that extreme heat or ground lightning killed them all.
Anyone with a common sense would know if you're hiking on a 100F temp., you're not gonna just sit anywhere to rest.
You'd look for trees or shaded area or find a creek.
Just think about it, it's only going to get even hotter by not moving at all.
You're not gonna be able to survive if you waste anymore of time, you gotta get up and start moving.
that's what most if not all, hikers' bodies were found before succumbing to heat.
They were all hiking so they're always moving whether it gets hot or not till they collapse,
there's not a single case that I know where a healthy hiker would just stay seated and die calmly without fighting himself to go on.

And about the ground lightning.
please show me where there was a case of ground lightning leaving not a single trace of its effect.
a phone could be burnt/scorched, skin/hair may show signs of lightning strike,
and FGS even ants or insects would be found dead in the area.

What are the possibilities, do you imagine if overheating and lightning are removed?

 

[gitana1]

Interesting theory. Not sure avid hikers and other recreationalists (hunters, etc.) would agree on the conclusion about more experience = increase in risk taking.

Really hard to get good feedback from the subjects who need to be interviewed re: what (if anything) they would do differently since, well, they are no longer with us.

Don't want to appear argumentative but outdoor recreation is not optional for a lot of us. It is the way we make a soul connection with our planet, our God, etc. Everyone weighs risk differently. To me, conclusions like this are not helpful at all.

I especially do not like the emphasis on not hiking alone. About 95% of all my outdoor recreation since 1994 has been done alone. I have developed good intuition and follow it. But if I die out there, so be it. Not wanting to, but could never live a life without some level of outdoor risk, since it is inherent in the activity.

Just my humble 2 cents.

I understand what you mean. I hike at night sometimes and there are mountain lions and coyote packs here as well as rattlesnakes. I tell my family that if I die, remember that I died doing something I love, in nature.

I’m not willing to curtail activities simply because they carry some risk. Living fully always does.

 

[gitana1]

I don't know what the rule is in California, but in the New England mountains, hikers are supposed to go 100 feet from any trail or water source to pee. So that's about the right distance.

I’ve never heard of that rule! We have rattlesnakes so that as well as erosion makes it so we are constantly cautioned not to go off trail.

 

[gitana1]

Speaking of lightning, we are having a show right now in OC.

 

[gitana1]

I've been doing some research. It looks like JG had been using AllTrails a good bit earlier in Spring 2021 for logging hikes and scouting trails. I could find no evidence he'd used other apps since. Maybe he was just not recording his/their most recent hikes. But the hikes he recorded until then were mostly 3-5 miles and moderate.

A couple of things of note. The Savage-Lundy Trail isn't even listed in AllTrails. Two closely related entries are the Hite Cove Road and Hites Cove Trail. Both are indicated as moderate trails with moderate elevation changes. What if they thought they were on one of these and never intended to be on the Savage-Lundy trail? After realizing their mistake, they turned around and started back up. Apart from evidence JG had scouted an 8 mile loop by app or a computer, I've not seen confirming evidence like footprints etc.that they actually completed such a distance. In other words, they never intended to be on a trail with a 2900 foot descent and then an equivalent ascent for return. The burned terrain might have made it even harder to realize this mistake.

At AllTrails there seems to be several reviews alluding to this potential for confusion.

Some comments in reviews under Hite Cove Road:
https://www.alltrails.com/explore/recording/hite-cove-road
VS:"Important for hikers to know that depicted hike is from Jerseydale (intersection) to gate at end of dirt road. The depicted route does NOT include the descent to the river. Highly suggest driving up about a mile, park, and start hike. Going down was 7.6 miles round trip and 2900feet elevation gain."

GG: "We went straight past the forest service gate onto Savage Lundy trail instead of turning right when Hite's Cove trail turns right and downhill. Savage Lundy trail drops into the Canyon below, as does Hite's Cove trail."
ETA: I don't think the last part of this comment about Hite's Cove trail was correct

Hites Cove Trail:
https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/hites-cove-trail
Recent commenters were debating if this were the trail the couple was on. It doesn't look like it is. AllTrails says it is 6.5 miles out and back with 950 feet elevation change.

Smart thoughts.

 

[jonjon747]

What are the possibilities, do you imagine if overheating and lightning are removed?

I've mentioned in my previous post that they may have been fighting with breathing problems.
Doesn't it seem little strange that investigators initially approached the case as hazmat?
They then treated as possible CO2, gas from mines, algae bloom and so on.
We get the sense that when the bodies were found, they may appeared as some kind of poison gas or maybe breathing related rather than heat-related or lightning.
I'm going with prolonged suffocation as the COD.
They couldn't breath, so the man had to sit for a moment to suck in for some air but didn't last long.
Breathing issue also supports the fact that the dog and the baby right next to him is very telling they died together about the same time.
Were they trying to eat something why is the dog and baby dead side by side?

Added thought: maybe the dog was also suffocating had to come close to pop asking for help? Dog: dad! I can't breath here help me!

 

[woods]

Speaking of lightning, we are having a show right now in OC.

I live in southern CA as well and I just spotted some thunder storms during my night walk.

 

[al66pine]

One small booboo w. deadly consequences?

Interesting theory. Not sure avid hikers and other recreationalists (hunters, etc.) would agree on the conclusion about more experience = increase in risk taking....Just my humble 2 cents.

@IRBHTX
Reminds me of a comment I heard way back when from a retired charter and cargo pilot, who said: Up here in Alaska there are bold pilots and there are old pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.

I don't know "what went wrong," whether it was a "simple detail" or a "perfect storm" of events.
Regardless, tragic all the way around.

 

[gitana1]

I live in southern CA as well and I just spotted some thunder storms during my night walk.

It’s rocking and rolling here and my dog is traumatized.

 

[Recidivist]

Speaking of lightning, we are having a show right now in OC.

Isn't it wild. The thunder is so loud it is setting the car alarms. More lightning than i have ever seen!

 

[Yvettea]

Gerrish and Chung had tried their best to hike the trail but the air was heavy. Fog shrouded the top of the trail but they broke through the fog after 1.5 miles. Now breathing was even harder not easier. It was as if their lungs were becoming paralyzed. What they didn’t know was the toxin from the algal blooms had aerosolized turning the air into a toxic layer held down by the fog. Without the fog it would dissipate but as it was it filled their lungs with its toxic breath affecting the dog first then the baby. As Gerrish removed the baby’s pack he realized he could hardly breath. Ellen was coming toward him gasping for air. She dropped before she reached him. As Gerrish sat back on his heels he saw there would be no rescue from this, whatever it was. He couldn’t breathe any longer.
My Own Opinion

 

[Seattle1]

Hi there! There’s been a lot of discussion about lightning, lots of info about ground strike, forensic evidence, and I posted some images of a storm cell near them that day. I’d repeat it all for you to save you the trouble of looking back through 3 separate threads, but it’s just too much info. Maybe search the term “lightning”?

I believe it was lightning that killed them all, and a ground strike - not a direct strike. I had the same thought as you - that Dad may have been found sitting because he’d been crouching to lower his profile.

Lots of interesting theories in these threads!

Before COVID, I spent a significant amount of time commuting to my work -- beginning each day with a silent prayer that I would return safely to press the auto-gate opener at the end of the day. I think a lot about this young family that's said to have resided only 15 or so miles from the SNF rec area where their lives ended.

In comparison, I think of the odds that this young family would expire to any natural or unnatural cause-- just minutes away from coffee, laundry, and breakfast dishes. I don't think they were careless, novices, or uninformed. I think time will reveal this was a perfect storm. Continued strength and comfort to all that are suffering because of this tragedy. Shout-out to any Newcastle mates reading here. x

 

[Lucy Locket]

What are the possibilities, do you imagine if overheating and lightning are removed?

Has burning poison oak been discussed yet?
I was thinking about various fires in the area and the effect of this in the air/breathing it in.

Someone (sorry I forget who) posted a link to a blog of a hiker hiking this area. She mentioned the abundance of poison oak. I guess this would show up in toxicology reports.

Before COVID, I spent a significant amount of time commuting to my work -- beginning each day with a silent prayer that I would return safely to press the auto-gate opener at the end of the day. I think a lot about this young family that's said to have resided only 15 or so miles from the SNF rec area where their lives ended.

In comparison, I think of the odds that this young family would expire to any natural or unnatural cause-- just minutes away from coffee, laundry, and breakfast dishes. I don't think they were careless, novices, or uninformed. I think time will reveal this was a perfect storm. Continued strength and comfort to all that are suffering because of this tragedy. Shout-out to any Newcastle mates reading here. x

The more I think about this sad situation I agree that it could be a combination of different factors that brought them down.

The idea of them being on the wrong trail is also intriguing. If so, that would add to the sense of panic and confusion.

JMO.

 

[HannahJJJ]

Gerrish is not too far from fifty years old...45/46? I must really be getting old because I wouldn't take him to be 45.

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