CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #5

[PerplexedPatty]

RSBM
While I don't expect LE to release COD for any family member in piecemeal fashion, I do think part of the seemingly protracted investigation is because COD will likely end up varying by family member as you suggest. So it is complex. I also suspect, IMO, that Oski and Miju died from heatstroke as dependents of adults who died from something more complicated... some combination of things that could include legal drugs, poison such as a pesticide or Ethelene Glycol, and possibly heatstroke as well.

And given the 9/30 update from the SO, I think foul play could explain why they were on the SL trail, a place where few of us, if any, would go that day, especially with a baby and long haired dog with unprotected (?) paws. So let me dabble with foul play a little since Admin has entrusted us with guided permission.

IMO: What if JG and EC intended to meet someone at the trail head? or had planned a rendezvous with someone nearby that morning and were eventually taken to the trailhead? What if the meet-up was a lure to get them out of their house by a nefarious character they knew or didn't know? That meet-up goes terribly wrong and then at gun point they are forced 1.5 miles down the SL trail. There, the adults are incapacitated by the third party (pesticide, Fentanyl). JG and EC are both left unconscious (presumed dead), dog tied to JG to keep him there, baby in carrier next to JG. JG dies from the acute poisoning and the dog and babe die of heatstroke... EC comes to, in a very weakened and sickened state, sees her family is all deceased, and with horrific grief and panic, she crawls 30m towards the truck and then succumbs to heat / poison.

Of course the ability to better understand the tracking of paw and foot prints (JG, EC, Oski, searchers, LE, and then possibly nefarious entities) is key to this scenario. But I keep going back to the question, why the scene was treated as a HazMat situation - what could LE see, hear or smell that informed them to take extreme precautions?

excellent post, so I must reply. Criminality is NOT off the list.
Another thing as far as trackable prints, we don’t know if the family possibly hiked Saturday. If Sunday’s tracks remained distinguishable Tuesday, imo Saturday’s prints did as well. We’ve not heard a word about Saturday. Did anyone see or communicate with them?
The hazmat theory was quickly ruled out, considered only because of nearby mines, I think. Moo

 

[Pumphouse363]

RSBM
While I don't expect LE to release COD for any family member in piecemeal fashion, I do think part of the seemingly protracted investigation is because COD will likely end up varying by family member as you suggest. So it is complex. I also suspect, IMO, that Oski and Miju died from heatstroke as dependents of adults who died from something more complicated... some combination of things that could include legal drugs, poison such as a pesticide or Ethelene Glycol, and possibly heatstroke as well.

And given the 9/30 update from the SO, I think foul play could explain why they were on the SL trail, a place where few of us, if any, would go that day, especially with a baby and long haired dog with unprotected (?) paws. So let me dabble with foul play a little since Admin has entrusted us with guided permission.

IMO: What if JG and EC intended to meet someone at the trail head? or had planned a rendezvous with someone nearby that morning and were eventually taken to the trailhead? What if the meet-up was a lure to get them out of their house by a nefarious character they knew or didn't know? That meet-up goes terribly wrong and then at gun point they are forced 1.5 miles down the SL trail. There, the adults are incapacitated by the third party (pesticide, Fentanyl). JG and EC are both left unconscious (presumed dead), dog tied to JG to keep him there, baby in carrier next to JG. JG dies from the acute poisoning and the dog and babe die of heatstroke... EC comes to, in a very weakened and sickened state, sees her family is all deceased, and with horrific grief and panic, she crawls 30m towards the truck and then succumbs to heat / poison.

Of course the ability to better understand the tracking of paw and foot prints (JG, EC, Oski, searchers, LE, and then possibly nefarious entities) is key to this scenario. But I keep going back to the question, why the scene was treated as a HazMat situation - what could LE see, hear or smell that informed them to take extreme precautions?

I think your scenario is more likely than is their decision to hike under those conditions. My only problem with it is that LE said they tracked towards the HC trail based on footprints in that direction. No mention has been made about prints towards the SL trail. The team didn’t bother going in that direction until a second team was called in hours later. Nine hours passed before they were discovered just a mile and a half from their vehicle. I suppose the scene was treated as a HazMat situation because there were four unexplained deaths in the middle of nowhere. MOO

 

[Recidivist]

excellent post, so I must reply. Criminality is NOT off the list.
Another thing as far as trackable prints, we don’t know if the family possibly hiked Saturday. If Sunday’s tracks remained distinguishable Tuesday, imo Saturday’s prints did as well. We’ve not heard a word about Saturday. Did anyone see or communicate with them?
The hazmat theory was quickly ruled out, considered only because of nearby mines, I think. Moo

Didn't they go to the museum on Saturday?

 

[Pumphouse363]

RSBM
While I don't expect LE to release COD for any family member in piecemeal fashion, I do think part of the seemingly protracted investigation is because COD will likely end up varying by family member as you suggest. So it is complex. I also suspect, IMO, that Oski and Miju died from heatstroke as dependents of adults who died from something more complicated... some combination of things that could include legal drugs, poison such as a pesticide or Ethelene Glycol, and possibly heatstroke as well.

And given the 9/30 update from the SO, I think foul play could explain why they were on the SL trail, a place where few of us, if any, would go that day, especially with a baby and long haired dog with unprotected (?) paws. So let me dabble with foul play a little since Admin has entrusted us with guided permission.

IMO: What if JG and EC intended to meet someone at the trail head? or had planned a rendezvous with someone nearby that morning and were eventually taken to the trailhead? What if the meet-up was a lure to get them out of their house by a nefarious character they knew or didn't know? That meet-up goes terribly wrong and then at gun point they are forced 1.5 miles down the SL trail. There, the adults are incapacitated by the third party (pesticide, Fentanyl). JG and EC are both left unconscious (presumed dead), dog tied to JG to keep him there, baby in carrier next to JG. JG dies from the acute poisoning and the dog and babe die of heatstroke... EC comes to, in a very weakened and sickened state, sees her family is all deceased, and with horrific grief and panic, she crawls 30m towards the truck and then succumbs to heat / poison.

Of course the ability to better understand the tracking of paw and foot prints (JG, EC, Oski, searchers, LE, and then possibly nefarious entities) is key to this scenario. But I keep going back to the question, why the scene was treated as a HazMat situation - what could LE see, hear or smell that informed them to take extreme precautions?[/QUOTE

 

[PerplexedPatty]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed >

I know some of you believe there’s no vegetation, I “believe” differently as I have a vacay home very near the area and I’m in Mariposa every quarter. I’ve also seen with my own eyes life continue despite hot temps’. Agriculture chores don’t stop because it’s hot, for example. People don’t stay indoors, all types of recreation takes place in the outdoors. No one dies due to heat to my knowledge. Moo


The bizarre deaths of the Gerrish family in Devil’s Gulch — StrangeOutdoors.com
This hike is considered one of the best hikes in the area for wildflowers in the early spring with over 60 varieties of wildflowers growing on the hillsides. This trail is therefore very popular from February to April.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Mariposa Sheriff Warning Public Of Fentanyl Found In Drugs

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Hypothetical only: discovery of legal but controlled substance would indeed warrant “continued interviews” in effort to find source. All MOO

(I still think the water was contaminated because it’d be normal for all of them or many of them to drink from the same container & idk if they had multiple containers. I’ve only heard they had water remaining that was sent for analysis.)

 

[PerplexedPatty]

This will likely be a highly unpopular post and if we had a “dislike” option, I’d set a record. My opinion: we are far enough along in lab analysis to either rule HS in or out. But, there is something much more complex going on. Again, as previously posted, it’s not enough to say XYZ was found. Another lab needs to confirm findings and the next step is quantitative. The amount of XYZ needs to be verified for each person and determined lethal to their weights. MOOMOO
The pathologists performing autopsies had to initially look for signs of HS, imo, because s/he knew they had been exposed to elements.

curiously “illegal drugs” ruled out, no mention of “legal drugs” which would include weed. Moo

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I assumed that EC was wearing the Camelback but it has not been clarified, MOO. I believe there may be inserts for baby carriers, but am not sure, never used one myself. Perhaps others can clarify. LE has seemed to refer to them having one water bladder with them, singular, MOO.

I've wondered about that too. Yes, LE used the singular, "water bladder", and did not specify who was carrying it. Could be either one of them, you can add one to a baby backpack, one by Osprey says "Pocketing provides storage for hydration reservoirs, layers, snacks, and more" for example. You can easily remove them from an old pack, or buy just the bladder with hose to add it to another pack. Perhaps they distributed the load by having EC carry the water. Last possibility, they did both have them, they usually are an individual item. I tried one, didn't like it for several reasons. One disadvantage is you can't readily judge how much water you have left- imagine a 3L bladder, vs three clear 1 liter bottles. You know exactly how fast you are going thru your water with the bottles.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Another thought, it was HOT Saturday as well as previous days. Local weather did not predict a “fast moving cold front” arriving Sunday. They knew, moo. They also had to be aware of the infrequent traffic heading to the trailhead, one would think. MOO.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

But I assume they checked the forecast? If they intended hiking 8 or more miles they’d have an idea of how long that would take and that the heat would increase. MOO

Idk their intentions. Moo I’m not certain where they actually did manage to hike.

 

[Pumphouse363]

We know a phone search was conducted from Jonathan’s phone, do we know if he actually made the search?
Either way, it appears (to me) both adults agreed to the outing, as they both made the trek.

If we know this information from Jon’s phone why has it been sent to the FBI? Surely if LE can access that information they know if he was able to post anything else on the day?
We only know at this point where they were found. We haven’t been told definitively what route they took only what has been surmised.

 

[Parsnip]

One disadvantage is you can't readily judge how much water you have left- imagine a 3L bladder, vs three clear 1 liter bottles. You know exactly how fast you are going thru your water with the bottles.

Eta: RSBM
Ime, that is a major disadvantage on a long hike. Especially when the one bladder is shared, as my family did when our boys were little.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Eta: RSBM
Ime, that is a major disadvantage on a long hike. Especially when the one bladder is shared, as my family did when our boys were little.

We don’t know if they had more, right? Did Briese not say dehydration was ruled out (early on) because they had water left? <modsnip>
We hike and trail ride often. Some of us freeze drinks for our packs/saddle bags. Moo

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

BBM
Well, if I recall correctly, @Runswithdogs (a veterinarian) informed us a long way back, that in that heat without shade, Oski likely was exhibiting heat stress signs within 15 to 30 minutes of starting out that morning. That is why I still contend they likely did not get far that day... perhaps just down the SL trail where they were found. IMO.

I do think the dog was the weak link. A possible scenario- if I was running out of safe water for my wife and baby, I'd let my dog drink from the river. A hot dog will swim to cool off, and a wet dog will stay cool until that water evaporates. If Oski was wet when he started up that climb it would explain how he got that far (which I wouldn't expect). That's how my wife and I take our dog on walks when it's hot- we either pour water on her or let her swim. We keep those walks to an hour or so, and a place with shade, which works for all of us. Here's an article about three dogs dying from heat on trails in SoCal, but not their people. Supports the idea that dogs have less tolerance for heat.

 

[NSamuelle]

We have heard from @Runswithdogs that dogs could succumb faster to heat than humans. From the link, unrelated to this story: The dog died from heat; the hikers were also suffering but lived, and were charged with animal cruelty. Dog dies of heat exposure on Scottsdale hiking trail; owner cited

 

[Auntie Cipation]

<modsnip>

I know some of you believe there’s no vegetation, I “believe” differently as I have a vacay home very near the area and I’m in Mariposa every quarter. I’ve also seen with my own eyes life continue despite hot temps’. Agriculture chores don’t stop because it’s hot, for example. People don’t stay indoors, all types of recreation takes place in the outdoors. No one dies due to heat to my knowledge. Moo


The bizarre deaths of the Gerrish family in Devil’s Gulch — StrangeOutdoors.com
This hike is considered one of the best hikes in the area for wildflowers in the early spring with over 60 varieties of wildflowers growing on the hillsides. This trail is therefore very popular from February to April.

Vegetation returns quickly following a fire -- but brush and low plants, and any new trees would only be inches tall, not providing shade. So "no vegetation" in terms of possible shade for hikers, other than the poles of burnt trees and the occasional unburnt one. But the area is possibly covered with shrub type vegetation by now, MOO.

Would fentanyl be findable in an autopsy?

 

[PerplexedPatty]

We have heard from @Runswithdogs that dogs could succumb faster to heat than humans. From the link, unrelated to this story: The dog died from heat; the hikers were also suffering but lived, and were charged with animal cruelty. Dog dies of heat exposure on Scottsdale hiking trail; owner cited

I raise aussie sheps. I sell as much as 8k per pup, moo…they work and tolerate heat. Not to undermine our veterinarian, by any means. A friend has 9 on a herd now and tempos over 85 with high humidity. Jmo. They are bred to work. All moo and conditions are different.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Vegetation returns quickly following a fire -- but brush and low plants, and any new trees would only be inches tall, not providing shade. So "no vegetation" in terms of possible shade for hikers, other than the poles of burnt trees and the occasional unburnt one. But the area is possibly covered with shrub type vegetation by now, MOO.

Would fentanyl be findable in an autopsy?

I think the answer is a clear “yes” and it is a legal drug, moo, of course.
I did not mean to imply vegetation provided shade, only to state there is no lack of vegetation, evident by photos. Moo

 

[PerplexedPatty]

I paid only 373k for my home in Mariposa. Houses are dirt cheap and attract a diverse crowd. Moo partying…rentals…unknown persons is an issue, and I believe Googling will confirm what I’m saying. Idk what led to this tragedy but if using Occam’s Razor, HS is not on my list.
I don’t mind eating crow, if wrong.
Look at what we’ve been told thus far. Use critical thinking skills. All moo.