Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sep 2014 - #65

[winterberry]

IMO it was unfinished JW - due to this :

Counsel assisting Gerard Craddock SC said that the inquest had already uncovered new leads.

"As a consequence of the evidence called here, there has been a witness who we had no idea about who has come forward and is speaking to police," Mr Craddock said.



Source: Coronavirus halts William Tyrrell inquest

That sounds like it might be the person responsible for the new evidence.

 

[Rumination1]

But why would the potential discovery of remains be the thing that broke them?

Is it the general pressure of cops and media swarming everywhere?

Or is it because the remains are in the area and whoever committed the crime knows it and thinks "oh well they've got me now, may as well confess and see what deal I can cut"?

Is there anything potentially emotive about remains being found that would trigger the offender into slipping up? If it was not a stranger crime could the offender potentially be upset about the remains being disturbed or treated disrespectfully?

Edited to add: And on the flip side, if we assume remains are there and the offender knows it, what type of criminal mind would NOT break knowing how close they are? Like that's some balls of steel. I get nervous going through a booze bus and I don't even drink!

Or IMO no nerves cos searching in wrong spot

 

[SleepyJoe]

Thank you. I did warn you that these are grim questions

1. Do you think if WT fell off that very high balcony, that there would necessarily be blood?

2. Do you think if WT fell off that very high balcony, that he would have lost consciousness?

3. Can a little person survive a fall that high in your opinion?

These are just my *opinions* only from my experience dealing with trauma victims. I am not a forensic pathologist. And I am speculating only, as all sorts of weird and unpredictable things can happen with the human body, and it is impossible to know all the variables that may affect potential injuries in certain situations.

Saying all that, here goes:

1. I have discussed this very question with colleagues. IMO, it is possible that there would be no blood with a child falling from a balcony 5m high. Injuries that would cause a death, without obvious blood seen externally, from such a fall would be a C-spine fracture, traumatic brain injury, or even, but probably less likely, a ruptured internal organ such as spleen/liver. And to answer a question from a previous thread, it is possible to suffer a traumatic brain injury without presence of a skull fracture, although I would hazard a guess that head injury sustained by a child falling 5m would be found in conjunction with a skull fracture (that may or may not be in conjunction with a scalp laceration - which do tend to bleed a lot).

2. and 3. Falling from a height of 5m would most likely not be survivable for a small child. Whether a child would be conscious or not after a fall would depend on the injury responsible for cause of death, but if the fall was fatal (as I think would most likely be the case), the severity of the injuries sustained would mean that the child would not be conscious for very long (if at all).

 

[SouthAussie]

Unless there’s a miracle I feel the finding will be taken by person or persons unknown.

Agree.
And I think the worst thing would be never finding William. Not knowing for sure if he is alive or deceased. Always wondering. Another Beaumont children.

 

[winterberry]

FM completely avoids answering the time he was last seen question and diverts to talking about a patch of grass.

No mention of driving to look for William in this either.

 

[winterberry]

These are just my *opinions* only from my experience dealing with trauma victims. I am not a forensic pathologist. And I am speculating only, as all sorts of weird and unpredictable things can happen with the human body, and it is impossible to know all the variables that may affect potential injuries in certain situations.

Saying all that, here goes:

1. I have discussed this very question with colleagues. IMO, it is possible that there would be no blood with a child falling from a balcony 5m high. Injuries that would cause a death, without obvious blood seen externally, from such a fall would be a C-spine fracture, traumatic brain injury, or even, but probably less likely, a ruptured internal organ such as spleen/liver. And to answer a question from a previous thread, it is possible to suffer a traumatic brain injury without presence of a skull fracture, although I would hazard a guess that head injury sustained by a child falling 5m would be found in conjunction with a skull fracture (that may or may not be in conjunction with a scalp laceration - which do tend to bleed a lot).

2. and 3. Falling from a height of 5m would most likely not be survivable for a small child. Whether a child would be conscious or not after a fall would depend on the injury responsible for cause of death, but if the fall was fatal (as I think would most likely be the case), the severity of the injuries sustained would mean that the child would not be conscious for very long (if at all).

Thank you very much

 

[SouthAussie]

<RSBM>
2. and 3. Falling from a height of 5m would most likely not be survivable for a small child. Whether a child would be conscious or not after a fall would depend on the injury responsible for cause of death, but if the fall was fatal (as I think would most likely be the case), the severity of the injuries sustained would mean that the child would not be conscious for very long (if at all).

3-year-old boy survives 5-story fall out apartment window: 'He was so lucky'

Boy, 11, survives FIVE storey fall in Sydney

'That's a big dent': Toddler falls six storeys and survives after landing on neighbour's car

Boy, 5, falls from 12th-storey apartment in Russia but SURVIVES, landing in thick snow [Video] | Daily Mail Online

 

[Green beans]

Who ever this newly found witness that stepped up is, I take my hat off to. Seriously.

Of all the news articles, police media press conferences, media accommodations and police updates, one thing is clear. Police are pissed. The amount of work they’ve done & are doing as we speak, because the person/s responsible will not, is mind boggling.

This would have to be the most horrendous crime I’ve ever followed. I cannot begin to imagine how this has affected KT BC LT & extended family. I cannot

 

[SleepyJoe]

3-year-old boy survives 5-story fall out apartment window: 'He was so lucky'

Boy, 11, survives FIVE storey fall in Sydney

'That's a big dent': Toddler falls six storeys and survives after landing on neighbour's car

Boy, 5, falls from 12th-storey apartment in Russia but SURVIVES, landing in thick snow [Video] | Daily Mail Online

Sure there are always exceptions to anything! But in medical training, we learn an aphorism "when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras" - ie what is most likely in any given scenario, which is what I am referring to.

 

[SouthAussie]

Sure there are always exceptions to anything! But in medical training, we learn an aphorism "when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras" - ie what is most likely in any given scenario, which is what I am referring to.

I think it depends on how much "cushioning" (plants/bushes) there was in that garden bed that they have been digging up.

imo

 

[Estelle]

So if WT did, in fact, fall 5m from the balcony, and survived, what happened next as LE are looking for a body?

 

[stormbird]

but if they didn’t remain stationary in the Black Spot, they would ping as soon as they got into signal IMO

do we think that everyone who’s mobile phone ‘pinged’ in the area has been identified & interviewed ?

Back in September this year Caroline Overington sounded pessimistic about whether the phone tower records had been useful:

CO: "There was a mobile phone tower, which would have told police who was in town - because it's a really small town - but it was capturing data from the freeway that was nearby, so it's nearly impossible to download everything."
- transcribed by me from about 3:49 minutes in a video "New suspect in William Tyrrell case", The Kenny Report, in 'Something evil' happened to William Tyrrell, SkyNews.com.au, 07 Sep 2021

I'm hoping CO doesn't know what she's talking about, because to me it seems like a good thing that so many phones might have been captured and potentially identified. But maybe it was just not possible to isolate which ones were relevant?

 

[SouthAussie]

So if WT did, in fact, fall 5m from the balcony, and survived, what happened next as LE are looking for a body?

My point was that if William fell he could have survived. In which case a parent would have immediately got medical help for him. Even if he seemed okay, had a dr check him over in case of concussion. Observe him.

Children have accidents.

imo

 

[SleepyJoe]

I really have no idea about what happened to William. I have no insider information or any stake in this case except for wanting justice for him by holding accountable anyone involved in his disappearance.

With the benefit of the "retrospectoscope", however, that balcony is incredibly dangerous, and given that the Melbourne Royal Children's Hospital, in its recommendations on preventing death and injuries from falls, states that "Children under five should not have access to heights over 1.5 metres. ", ALL efforts should be made to prevent a toddler being able to access an area where they could fall from a balcony of that height ie gates locked, doors closed and locked, supervised carefully at all times.

Kids Health Information : Safety: Preventing falls

Mistakes happen and are unavoidable - I truly, truly understand this, and those who make them deserve compassion. However there are certain situations where potential outcomes are so serious, and foreseeable to enough of a degree, that all due care must be taken and people must be (and are) held accountable for when it isn't. And, hypothetically, if a very serious mistake was made by someone who was well aware that they had made such a grievous mistake and that severe consequences would occur if their mistake was revealed, that may provide the person with enough motivation to hide their mistake. I am not suggesting anything regarding William's disappearance, I am just talking generally.

 

[drsleuth]

What FACS did or didn't do with bio family before has no relevance to the disappearance of WT and the current investigation and inquest.
Imo

Exactly & Mr Craddock said the same thing in his opening statement at the inquest.

Sure, but I highly doubt witnessing violence and the psychological impact of that is enough for an 18 year order imo. Legally, psychological harm is difficult to prove, even though it's obviously not good for the child imo. I have family who get many chances and work with the department and supports so that's my impression.

Must have been a reason, we don't know why. Children's courts are closed & for a good reason.

 

[Pundit]

I’m continuing to pray and hope they find William . His family deserve to know where he is not least of all his sister !
It seems there’s less and less news each day so I remind myself this is an ongoing case and we need to trust the police / coroner who does need to know has information and we the public will be privy at the right time.

I thinking (maybe hoping) that the lack of news might actually be a positive in some way. Are things happening behind the scenes? Has the public pressure resulted in some cracks to exploit? Have they found smaller circumstantial things that linked together tell a story?

 

[they'll get you]

Agree.
And I think the worst thing would be never finding William. Not knowing for sure if he is alive or deceased. Always wondering. Another Beaumont children.

Such a tiny toddler, he could be anywhere in the Australian bush.

 

[Naobh]

FM completely avoids answering the time he was last seen question and diverts to talking about a patch of grass.

No mention of driving to look for William in this either.

The MFC says about online speculation, "and they don't know, they don't know the story behind the story."

So what IS the story behind the story? What really happened?

Does that not sound a bit suss? Like they are hiding something?

 

[stormbird]

IMO it was unfinished JW - due to this :

Counsel assisting Gerard Craddock SC said that the inquest had already uncovered new leads.

"As a consequence of the evidence called here, there has been a witness who we had no idea about who has come forward and is speaking to police," Mr Craddock said.



Source: Coronavirus halts William Tyrrell inquest

In a previous thread someone (I think @Blues Clues) suggested the "new" witness was the woman who appeared at the inquest on 06 Oct 2020. She lived in Herons Creek and had heard a child's scream in bushland near where FA lived when William went missing. I agree and think she was probably the person who had come forward (just a guess, though; MOO).
- Witness heard scream from bushland after William Tyrrell's disappearance, inquest told, Sydney Morning Herald, 06 Oct 2020

 

[Estelle]

The MFC says about online speculation, "and they don't know, they don't know the story behind the story."

So what IS the story behind the story? What really happened?

Does that not sound a bit suss? Like they are hiding something?

Do you mean the foster father or the foster mother as you typed MFC?

BBM Naobh, that is a very interesting observation you have made.

One can read many things into that statement made by MFC.

Who is "they"?

Does MFC know the story behind the story?

Did the interviewer ask MFC to clarify what he meant by that comment?

What do members here think he meant when MFC said "they don't know the story behind the story"?