Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #5 *charges*

[Arboreal]

Perhaps someone has noted this already, but the ABC reported that "Five unmarked police cars were seen travelling to the remote search site early on Tuesday".

Here is a screen grab of the comment about bone:

 

[mjp1228]

Thank you to all the super sleuths out there for your good wishes. We (the camping group) have long held the belief that we would never see Russell again. So todays news is a bit of a double edged sword. If the remains are infact those of Russell and Carol (we don't really know yet but the chances are very likely that they are) at least we have closure, but it also means that the last glimmer of hope has been extinguished.

Very sorry for your loss

 

[Satchie]

This HS article says that the remains were found 5 hours after the excavator was brought in. The excavator was brought to them (by a local) on Tuesday ... no mention of what time on Tuesday.

The remains were found in a 'very shallow' area of bushland.

Detectives are looking for bones. They have not called in cadaver dogs.

Any remains may have been covered by 'lush growth' since March 2020.

No Cookies | Herald Sun

Just because it's interesting to me how police activities are covered by the media: I don't believe police would conduct an initial search for bodies by using an excavator (unless they knew the perp had used an excavator to bury them.)

That would completely destroy the crime scene and the forensic evidence. It might actually damage the remains, and they can't reconstruct what the site was like before being scooped up and dumped.

IMO, only after they had found enough to learn what forensics were going to be available, and to determine there would be no significant/meaningful damage to evidence, would they bring in excavators.

JMO

 

[Amber2017]

.
I read that Mr Lynn had retained as legal counsel the same lawyer who represented Pusey - the Porsche driver who speeding led to a police stop that created the circumstances for an accident in which four police officers were killed. You know the one who filmed the dying officers and berated them for spoiling his sushi.

Not sure this means he's going to plead guilty. Would you spend money on a top defence lawyer if you're going to plead guilty? Or are you trying to get mitigation/reduced sentence?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Wait for analysis on Vic remains find

DNA testing is underway to identify human remains found in the police search for missing Victorian campers Carol Clay and Russell Hill.

 

[Arboreal]

What I get from analyzing the news sources is that AAP were invited onto the search site on Tues where they filmed/photographed one of several simultaneous searches (the images are all credited to AAP photographer, Jason Eamon, the video footage is not credited but is obviously all by one camera at the same scene).

At some point, AAP were told remains had been found. They broke the story about 3 pm Australia time, and all the other news agencies are based on that story (AAP is a wire service that shares stories rather than publishes themselves).

There can't have been any kind of press conference, or there would be footage of that.

The remains must have been found well before AAP were told, in order to ensure all the family members had been officially informed through police channels. Police don't want anyone involved to find out through the news media.

Therefore, I think the remains were found early in the morning, and that's what brought out the detectives in the unmarked police cars.

I believe they invited AAP into the area after remains were found, and brought them to a minor search area. Because no way do police want the media on site, taking photos, when actual victim's remains are found.

I really don't think anything can be deduced at this point from the news coverage. The reporters, IMO, don't know any more than we do. The police show what they want to show, they say what they can say, without jeapardizing the case by revealing anything to the suspect that might interfere with their interrogation, or prejudicing a potential jury, etc.

JMO

Hi Satchie
I agree with a lot of your conjectures. The discoveries were made earlier than announced and the families, quite rightly were advised before the announcement was made to the media. I do not think AAP was the only source of information: there seems to have been a pool photographer, one from the Herald Sun, vision released by VicPol,
Erin Pearson, writing in The Age, at 11.32, said this: "The remote area is littered with abandoned mine shafts, but police appear to have narrowed their search zone away from the shafts, to a 20-metre-square area on the Union Spur Track near the Providence Spur Track." The photos accompanying that article are credited to a Jason Edwards (who is Herald sun) and also "Pool", which is not defined, but usually means one photographer who shares their photos. In cases like this, police often select a small number of photographers and journalists on the understanding they share their photos and observations. AAP is often selected; sometimes the journalists decide among themselves. What has been interesting here is that VicPol have used free to air and readily available news outlets - ch.9/Fairfax (the one stable now) and ABC. News has not been used, because they live behind paywalls.
Ms Pearson also shared a video, author uncredited, on her twitter stream: https://twitter.com/epearson_3/status/1465494218059644928
This shows the excavator. On the LHS, partly obscured are the forensic awning. In this case, they are not covering the actual excavation site, but are used to shade the tables where samples are taken and recorded.
There were a number of excavation sites, but all the vision I have seen, whether still or moving, suggests the one site, in the vicinity of Union Spur - Providence Spur. Some reports say the remains were found off to one side of the Union Spur rather than along the Providence spur.
Although it is true, as you say, "... no way do police want the media on site, taking photos, when actual victim's remains are found..." often police can't control it: a long lens or a drone. We do not know the circumstances under which these photos and videos were taken.
I think the reporters do know more than we do; but they often have to let the lawyers scrutinise their copy lest in undermine police and prosecution activity or the accused's right to a fair trial. It is also clear that a number of reporters know the precise location of the 20m square dig site; we do not.

 

[Arboreal]

Not sure this means he's going to plead guilty. Would you spend money on a top defence lawyer if you're going to plead guilty? Or are you trying to get mitigation/reduced sentence?

I was not suggesting he would. I have no idea what he plans to do. I just thought it was interesting who he retained.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Fairfax news articles are quite often behind paywalls too.

AAP is often selected; sometimes the journalists decide among themselves. What has been interesting here is that VicPol have used free to air and readily available news outlets - ch.9/Fairfax (the one stable now) and ABC. News has not been used, because they live behind paywalls.

 

[Detective Willy]

GL Facebook page must have been re-opened because I can see it again now.

There are many comedians in Australia.

GL got stung by his bees and was in Hospital with a swollen face previously. Many people have now been commenting how swollen his backside is going to be now that he is in prison.

 

[Arboreal]

Just because it's interesting to me how police activities are covered by the media: I don't believe police would conduct an initial search for bodies by using an excavator (unless they knew the perp had used an excavator to bury them.)

That would completely destroy the crime scene and the forensic evidence. It might actually damage the remains, and they can't reconstruct what the site was like before being scooped up and dumped.

IMO, only after they had found enough to learn what forensics were going to be available, and to determine there would be no significant/meaningful damage to evidence, would they bring in excavators.

JMO

I agree. I must confess that the use of an excavator also puzzled me, given they had a 20m sq area identified - and which proved correct. [Quite how they did that, we will have to wait for the trial, the Committal Hearing or a police announcement.] It's a bit like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. Watching the TV show Time Team, when they excavate they may use a machine, but only if they believe the artefacts they are seeking are deep down. As they approach the depth, then the archaeologists get into the hole with their trowels and brushes.
In this case, the remains were "shallow". I suspect Police knew they would find bone rather than bodies, and as you say, used the excavator and the sieves.

 

[Arboreal]

Fairfax news articles are quite often behind paywalls too.

Only if you do not clear your cache. New Ltd titles are almost always if not actually always.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm getting to dislike the photo of him with the straps over his shoulders, which someone said were waders.

It's not all photos, but that one has made me jump a few times when it popped up full size on my laptop, when I was reading news about the story. Happened heaps of times now with different articles.

 

[Arboreal]

I'm getting to dislike the photo of him with the straps over his shoulders, which someone said were waders.

It's not all photos, but that one has made me jump a few times when it popped up full size on my laptop, when I was reading news about the story. Happened heaps of times now with different articles.

Some folks are not morning people and don't look their best until they brush their hair and apply a little lippy!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

No I was just posting that it's not only Nine's articles that are behind a paywall.

I have no problem with seeing them.

Only if you do not clear your cache. New Ltd titles are almost always if not actually always.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Police await DNA results of human remains found during search for campers

The human remains found in the search for missing Victorian campers Carol Clay and Russell Hill may take investigators several weeks to identify.

Police this morning are scouring the alpine region for further evidence following the discovery of the remains just a few hours away from where the pair vanished while camping in the Wonnangatta Valley in March last year.

Forensic investigator Greg Kelly, who has been following the case closely, said it could take weeks or even months for detectives to confirm the identities of the remains.

The remains would also be contaminated to some extent due to natural intervention, he said.

"Police have to consider that the temperature of the earth, the decomposition of the bodies that takes place in that period of time and the forensic evidence that surrounds that," he told Today.

"But moreover, we are looking not just at the forensic evidence associated with the identification, which is extremely important both to the authorities and also to the families concerned.

"But we are also looking at what physical evidence, material evidence that might be identified - as the bodies start to break down we might find the remains of projectiles or other injuries that help the police put the case together and be the evidence that they will ultimately present in court."

 

[jsiar]

I’m so glad they have found RH & CC now. The police have done a great job on this case, they really have. I’m unsure now whether GL has actually given them any info, some articles make it sound like he has, yet others don’t. I’m concerned the details will never be known of what happened. The family need answers.
I just find this whole thing so incomprehensible. What in the world could make you so annoyed you would murder two people, allegedly. Also, the incredible bad luck to camp next to someone so unhinged, out there in the middle of nowhere.
Regarding the trailer, if he sold it, he must have sold it unregistered because you would usually just transfer the reg to the new owner, so the plate should really be the same. But obviously somethings happened there because a simple search on VicRoads would have found the new owner in a flash. However I’m not convinced he did sell it, because the person who bought it would surely recognise his picture in the news? I doubt it went interstate because all the borders have been shut for a very long time during the last 18 months. I know I wouldn’t have gone through the hassle of getting an interstate travel permit just to buy a cheap trailer. JMO.

 

[Kemug]

Interesting that LE as far as we know didn't waste time on searching mine shafts. Also GL, not being a local, may have not even known that there were any mine shafts. Or else he would have used them for hiding the bodies. MOO

 

[jsiar]

Has there been any mention of the sleeping bags near the remains? Perhaps the sleeping bags were burnt, hence the fire expert being on site? I don’t really want to think too graphically about other things. But regarding sleeping bags, they would stand out and increase the risk of being found so to me it makes sense that they would have been destroyed. I can’t imagine they would deteriorate naturally over this short period of time but I’m no expert. IMO.

 

[Amber2017]

I was not suggesting he would. I have no idea what he plans to do. I just thought it was interesting who he retained.

I didn't mean to take you up! Sorry for the poor wording. I was just speculating purely for myself as to why he has retained such counsel and what it means.

 

[Detective Willy]

To get a conviction for murder or manslaughter the Crown does not need a body or to identify exactly how the person died, only that the person did die by the hand of another person and that that other person's action was deliberate and not the result of some defect of mind (i.e. they were insane, delusional, talking to God and so on). There is a complex and quite fascinating body of law around all this. Typically, the Crown will set out to establish certain facts of the case ( a person is actually dead and the death was "unnatural"), and oftentimes the defence will actually agree to some of those facts. The argument then focuses on the accused's involvement (e.g. the possibility of the crime - Cardinal Pell; or I didn't kill them; I disposed of the bodies...; I was cleaning my rifle and I did not know it was loaded and it went off shooting the victim and I panicked and disposed of the body...), state of mind and responsibility (e.g. My neighbour's dog told me to do it - Son of Sam) and the circumstances that led to the accused's actions (e.g. long standing antipathy, such as in neighbourhood disputes, provocation and so on). On some of these the burden of proof is on the defence, as in insanity pleas; on others, it is on the prosecution.
So, it will be the accused's account of events against the forensic evidence. Whether the Judge permits the accused's prior history or evidence of his behaviour to be admitted, is a matter of judicial discretion and in part will depend on the relevance to the case and whether it is more prejudicial than probative.
Unless the accused enters a plea of guilty, this trial is going to be really interesting as the only living witness is also the accused.

In this case like the Ristevski case - I think if you commit a serious crime, then hide this crime and try to get away with it and only "confess" after you have already been caught then Murder should automatically apply. The Perpetrator should have to prove if it was anything less and why they did not confess to the crime IMO.

I hate when people kill others, go to great trouble to dispose of them and great trouble to get away with it for years and then change their tune after they are caught.

It was outstanding Policework that solved this - if GL felt guilt and it was accidental he should have come forward straight away and only be facing 1 charge of manslaughter and Russell or Carol would still be alive still to verify his account.

How much has GLs cover up cost taxpayers and how much will the future legal proceedings cost? The law IMO is too soft in these cases. The criminals "play" the system and the taxpayers foot the bill.