TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

[Dotta]

More and more people speak out

Texas school shooter classmate says he harassed her online

Former classmates of Texas school shooter Salvador Ramos say he would harass them online and that one of his exes reportedly said he would become 'super violent' and left her fearing for her life.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

School's Security Plan

Despite ample school security plan, Texas shooter found gaps

The shooting massacre at a Texas elementary has spurred renewed calls, especially from Republicans, for more investment in school security.

apnews.com

 

[IceIce9]

School's Security Plan

Despite ample school security plan, Texas shooter found gaps

The shooting massacre at a Texas elementary has spurred renewed calls, especially from Republicans, for more investment in school security.

apnews.com

Ugh. It all started with the door that had been propped open. Keeping doors closed and locked was detailed in the school security plan.

 

[Seattle1]

Excessive absences

Both the child and parent are responsible for unexcused absences. Yes, even if your child is 16 years old and skips class without you knowing, you are considered responsible! ^^rsbm

In this case, I think the demographics of the area may have played a part in not raising an alarm that SR "dropped out" of school. It's not unusual in rural areas for 16-year-olds to drop out of school to help work on the farm or otherwise help support the family.

And like so many things, I also think COVID may have played a part in not judiciously monitoring his attendance status-- and his behavior for that matter. I'm personally aware that many students chose not to return to the classroom after in-person classes resumed, and schools were required to accommodate their decision.

Also, it seems many of his arguments with his mother included the issue of SR not attending school and/or graduating. MOO

 

[bestill]

Ugh. It all started with the door that had been propped open. Keeping doors closed and locked was detailed in the school security plan.

And don't you know that the lawyers are lining up...

 

[Sundog]

I am sure there are a number of good educational videos online regarding what to do in the event of an active shooter incident, but after a quick look online I watched the video, below, made by the City of Houston called "Run.Hide.Fight: Surviving an Active Shooter Event." It was funded with a grant from the Department of Homeland Security.

I asked the moderator if I could post it as a refresh for those who are interested regarding active shooter incident training for the public, and it was approved. In addition to the approval, she suggested that I add the link, below, to the Department of Homeland Security's active shooter booklet, which also provides some good information on what to do to protect yourself in an active shooter incident.

Warning - there are some disturbing images at the beginning of the video, and briefly at the end of the video when LE arrive.

https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/active_shooter_booklet.pdf

 

[Seattle1]

Anonymous donor to pay $175K for funeral expenses of Texas school shooting victims, Abbott says

Nineteen students and two teachers died in the shooting at Robb Elementary School.

www.google.com

Yes, the Governor announced this on Friday and my comment was that the funeral home located across from the school had already announced last Tuesday that they'd provide the services at no cost to the families.

 

[ilovewings]

Again, there is no *legal* duty to save lives that are not in police custody. Certainly a moral/ethical duty, but not a Constitutional one. This is why, when people claim that “heads will roll” for failure to follow active shooter protocol, I suggest that nothing will happen because there’s simply no *legal* obligation on police to do anything. This was attempted after Parkland, and failed. These two articles give a good overview of the subject, one from 2005 and one from post-Parkland.


“U.S. District Judge Beth Bloom said neither the school nor sheriff’s deputies had a legal obligation to protect students from the alleged shooter, Nikolas Cruz, who is accused of killing 17 people at the school Feb. 14. Her reasoning? The students were not in state custody.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/12/21/us-judge-says-law-enforcement-officers-had-no-legal-duty-protect-parkland-students-during-mass-shooting/

Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone (Published 2005)

Here's the thing: For the sake of this discussion we can recognize what the Supreme Court ruled: Even with that ruling however, what does that mean when lives are in danger, be it at a school, a mall, or a supermarket and there is an active shooter? I would imagine in the job description of police officers there is protocol which lays out exactly what a police officer is to do in those situations- it is to go to the area where people's lives are in danger from an active shooter and to take the shooter out so as to save lives- if that were not the case, why call the police at all? I don't expect a police officer to say "I have no legal obligation to save lives so- the heck with it- "

That legal ruling may prevent citizens from being successful in a court of law, but in the real world a police officer has a duty, an obligation to save lives by taking out people who put others in harms way.

Those 19 police officers who stood around and did nothing to save those children, should no longer have a job and neither should the Chief of Police (or whatever his title is).

 

[WichitaFalls]

I wonder if a school cousellor/psychologist could have directed him/his parents where to seek help?

It happens in schools in my country.
In fact, every school cooperates with local therapeutic/psychological centre for children/teens.

A school is the first place where parents seek help when they see worrying behaviour.

But it is usually teachers who intervene first.

From what I've seen of his parents (interviews), I would be surprised if 1) they were aware/involved enough to see a glaring problem and 2) they would have the motivation/drive to follow through with pursuing help. MOO

 

[x_files]

Would you volunteer for that job? Including low pay and zero respect? I know I wouldn’t.

I might. The work is rewarding.

 

[Seattle1]

I am sure there are a number of good educational videos online regarding what to do in the event of an active shooter incident, but after a quick look online I watched the video, below, made by the City of Houston called "Run.Hide.Fight: Surviving an Active Shooter Event." It was funded with a grant from the Department of Homeland Security. ^^rsbm

Good resources @Sundog, thanks for posting.

I don't think it can be underreported that each of the survivors of this horrific incident has said that they were prepared for what to do during "lockdown" from the classroom drills they'd participated in beginning with Pre-K. Once again, we owe so much to our teachers across the nation.

 

[Arkay]

Ugh. It all started with the door that had been propped open. Keeping doors closed and locked was detailed in the school security plan.

To be fair, of course, we all know that it started with Salvador Ramos.

Having said that, this chain of failures enabled his plan to work when it could have been thwarted.

I'm sorry to cast aspersions on a fellow teacher; but yes, the propped open door was the first and maybe gravest misstep. If SR entered just a minute or two after the door was propped open, I presume he was already on the perimeter, scouting ways to enter the school.

I know during my career I've propped open the door to the parking lot, as well. Sometimes we have bare minutes before the next class, and if I needed something from the car, it would take me 10x as long to go around to the front entrance. It never crossed my mind that someone would sneak in. If they had, though, I would have seen it from the parking lot and immediately called the office, but that would have been too late once someone was inside.

I'm eternally grateful that nothing tragic ever happened, and grateful to be retired. I still worry endlessly about my three school-aged grandchildren, though.

Then, of course, whatever ways the police were forced to restrain themselves from entering the classroom just compounded the tragic errors that took place here.

Our classrooms have a door with a handle and three little windows. That's why we lock the door and huddle silently in the farthest corner. Yet undeniably an intruder could break or shoot the windows and then reach in and unlock the door.

During these kind of drills, I could keep whichever class I had quiet, even though I've had as many as 38 13-and 14-year olds in the class at a time. It would be maybe 10 minutes and they felt like it's a little break from class.

The one day we did have a shooter and we were there for over an hour, where it's not easy to keep restless teenagers quiet with no room to move, they knew it was real and did stay quiet for most of the time. However, there were a lot of kids crying, particularly those who had younger siblings in other classrooms.

I do agree that if someone is determined to cause harm, it's not always possible to anticipate every action that may occur and keep everyone safe.

I don't know what the answer may be, because hardening the schools to prison-like conditions is going to cause its own mental stress for the children, and cause some potential teachers to reconsider entering the profession.

IMO

 

[Dotta]

From what I've seen of his parents (interviews), I would be surprised if 1) they were aware/involved enough to see a glaring problem and 2) they would have the motivation/drive to follow through with pursuing help. MOO

But then it is teachers' task to intervene in order to help a pupil.
If parents don't want to cooperate and they neglect their duty - inform social services.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

I disagree that the propped open door was the FIRST failing of the school. The fence was. It should have considerably delayed his attempts to get himself and the ammo into the school ground, and he should have been shot by LE (or anyone) as he attempted to enter.

 

[Seattle1]

Actually firefighters do not run into burning buildings where conditions could be life threatening. I know personally of situations where they have not run in to save children or adults because they cannot go in safely. If there is a possibility the roof will collapse, flashback, or other life threatening conditions they are commanded not to enter.

Medics and EMTs do not get out of their vehicles until the scene is secure, even if victims are in danger of bleeding to death.

I agree @IceIce9.

Generally, each state has its own Statute to provide for conditions where firefighters may refuse to enter without being subject to liability.

For example, Washington Statue even provides for the endangered safety of the firefighter due to a guard animal:

(2) A firefighter, who reasonably believes that his or her safety is endangered by the presence of a guard animal, may without liability: (a) Refuse to enter ...

https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=43.44&full=true

 

[Sundog]

I disagree that the propped open door was the FIRST failing of the school. The fence was. It should have considerably delayed his attempts to get himself and the ammo into the school ground, and he should have been shot by LE (or anyone) as he attempted to enter.

I think it was established that there were no LE present when he enterd the school grounds. The school shared a school resource officer/LE with the high school and he wasn't on this campus at the time the shooter entered the schoolgrounds.

 

[Lmustang89]

Towards the end of the school year, my son's elementary would have outdoor game Olympics. I and other parents would volunteer. We would leave the back door open so the teachers not yet playing wouldn't have to get out to open the locked door every five minutes.

 

[Dotta]

I think it was established that there were no LE present when he enterd the school grounds. The school shared a school resource officer/LE with the high school and he wasn't on this campus at the time the shooter entered the schoolgrounds.

It seems this "Security Plan" looked good on PAPER.

But reality is a different matter.

After all, it is usually "human factor" that fails.

 

[Seattle1]

I disagree that the propped open door was the FIRST failing of the school. The fence was. It should have considerably delayed his attempts to get himself and the ammo into the school ground, and he should have been shot by LE (or anyone) as he attempted to enter.

I disagree for a couple of reasons that the fence was the first failing of the school. The fence has to provide for safe ingress and egress under normal use as well as access by emergency responders including aid and fire equipment. We know that the shooter was delayed (reaching the propped open door) when he got around the fence and had to hide behind parked vehicles where he went undetected by the school's resource officer.

 

[Peppery]

Ugh. It all started with the door that had been propped open. Keeping doors closed and locked was detailed in the school security plan.

Exactly. Or maybe not started, but it is one obvious failure I think we can agree should not have happened and might’ve made a real difference in how this played out.

And I’d suspect that keeping the doors closed and locked is the easiest, least expensive, fastest implemented, zero training/zero funding/zero government approval/non political item in the plan.

No it might not have prevented this, and yes if he’d shot his way through another door there might have been more casualties, but that doesn’t mean we don’t attempt to make it harder for him to get in at all. That’s like saying we shouldn’t wear seatbelts because of the small chance we can’t get it open after a crash and we might be trapped. Overall we know seatbelts save way more more lives than they cost. Locked doors keep way more people out than do open doors.

Changing laws and getting funding takes time. Gun violence isn’t going to solved easily or quickly or cheaply. But this was a one second error that should not have happened.