Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022

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Snipped quote: On Friday, police showed Young e-mails Terri had sent to friends describing her marriage to Kaine and her feelings about Kyron.

Young said the emails reveal "a severe hatred for Kyron."

"She blames a lot of the marital problems between Kaine and herself on Kyron. It was a huge point of contention in their marriage and she had expressed in great detail her hatred for Kyron," Young said. "I now believe, without a shadow of a doubt that not only is she capable of hurting Kyron, that it's clear that she could have hurt him in the worst possible way."


Snipped quote: But he [Kaine] did confirm that he got the same information about Terri's emails from police on Friday as Desiree.
 
Snipped quote: On Friday, police showed Young e-mails Terri had sent to friends describing her marriage to Kaine and her feelings about Kyron.

Young said the emails reveal "a severe hatred for Kyron."

"She blames a lot of the marital problems between Kaine and herself on Kyron. It was a huge point of contention in their marriage and she had expressed in great detail her hatred for Kyron," Young said. "I now believe, without a shadow of a doubt that not only is she capable of hurting Kyron, that it's clear that she could have hurt him in the worst possible way."


Snipped quote: But he [Kaine] did confirm that he got the same information about Terri's emails from police on Friday as Desiree.
It's a telling quote, I think. "He got the same information about Terri's emails from police on Friday as Desiree". Not that he took the same meaning from them as Desiree. Desiree is the only one of them that has stated the emails contained Terri hating or wanting to hurt Kyron. Kaine's denial of having read any emails to that effect on Dr Phil speaks for itself.
 
Sure, but it doesn't change that the police was actively looking for a strange person - and didn't distribute a description of them.

And I think that it is wrong to encourage this false dichotomy. It's the kind of pressure that leads innocent people to prison. It's not their own interests versus the child's interests, it's their own versus LE's interests - which is far from always the same as the child's.

And it's not unusual for them to not be able to think of something else, as well.

But it wasn't just the parents, was it? It was law enforcement. It was media. Essentially everyone ganged up on Terri and by implication, exonerated the school. At that point, what would another parent even sue over? Their kids are safe, after all.

I believe LE were looking at and for a lot of different people in the beginning, as they should have been. They had to investigate all tips, no matter where they came from or who gave them. We don't know the outcome of all of those tips.

I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything. I'm stating my opinion and obsevations about what every other parent (who is innocent) has done. Except Terri. But imo that's because she's not innocent.
In the beginning I believed Terri was innocent. I believed everything she said. I took everything she said at face value. It wasn't the parents or the media or LE that changed my mind. Over time, it was because of my own reasoning and logic and experience and judgement that I begin to question her story.

I don't believe that innocent parents never think of anything else to tell or ask LE after three and a half weeks. What are you doing now? Have you looked here? Have you talked to that person? Have you tried this? What's happening? Have you made any progress?

And I don't believe that there wasn't even one parent that questioned the school and wanted to hold them accountable if they believed they were at fault. Parents don't operate that way. It was their BABIES involved, they would have absolutely "foughht city hall" on behalf of their children. Much more likely the parents knew things about the situation and Terri that the rest of us don't know. They were the ones who saw her and knew her and had volunteered with her and knew her from the community. Now why would they believe Tony and Desiree and Kaine over Terri? After all, according to Terri's supporters, the other parents weren't visible in the school at all. Not the way Terri was. She was known by the staff and many other parents. We don't know what those parents know.

All imo
 
Right. Hard to admit if you're the one who let the monster in.
Yes, it would be. I think Desiree did a great job of capturing that point in the quote below:

Transcript from the video at link at about 3:09 minutes in:
Desiree: I told Kaine that when you are married to the devil and you give her a reason to be pissed off, all of your sins are going to come back. And here we are in this situation.

Snipped quote from same link: Detectives have never named a suspect. But Terri’s own lawyer and a judge have called her a suspect in court papers.
...
“I believe she strategically did something to take out me, Kaine, the teacher, the principal at the school,” Desiree said. “She was angry at a lot of people that day, and she in one move did all of that. So, I’ll give her credit for coming up with something to hurt all of us.”

 
...

Snipped quote from same link: Detectives have never named a suspect. But Terri’s own lawyer and a judge have called her a suspect in court papers.
...
RSBM,

Well of course he could say that just based off LE behaviour and not any semblance of guilt on Terri's part. It's pretty obvious that's what LE and 99% of the posters here think too. He's actually stating a fact here; stating that fact does not means she's guilty.

But, the FBI apparently disagrees, and the Grand Jury.

Anyway, I'll move my conversation away from Terri and concentrate on Kyron ... yet again.
 
RSBM,

Well of course he could say that just based off LE behaviour and not any semblance of guilt on Terri's part. It's pretty obvious that's what LE and 99% of the posters here think too. He's actually stating a fact here; stating that fact does not means she's guilty.

But, the FBI apparently disagrees, and the Grand Jury.

Anyway, I'll move my conversation away from Terri and concentrate on Kyron ... yet again.
Even if Terri were innocent, I don't know how the investigation would be able to move away from her. She claims she knew him best, knew him from the time he was a baby, took care of him the most, knew more about him than anyone, volunteered in his classroom. She even made a doctor's appointment for him because she thought there was something that needed to be checked out. She knew his teachers and his friends and his school building inside out. She helped him with his science project. She was with him at home and in the truck on the way to school and in the school and in his classroom that morning. She took a picture of him. She was with him right before he disappeared. She was the last person to see him. That makes her a, if not the, prime witness, imo. I don't know how the investigation can be talked about without referencing Terri. She knew what he was most likely to have done, who he was most likely to have talked to and seen, what his reactions and responses would have been to any given situation. According to her anyway. She said she loved him.
 
I believe LE were looking at and for a lot of different people in the beginning, as they should have been. They had to investigate all tips, no matter where they came from or who gave them. We don't know the outcome of all of those tips.
Sure, but at this point I believe I have answered your question.
I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything. I'm stating my opinion and obsevations about what every other parent (who is innocent) has done. Except Terri. But imo that's because she's not innocent.
Let's assume it's true that every other (innocent) parent does that. In how many of those cases were the parent directly targeted with an undercover sting operation, directly followed by LE turning their spouse against them? Are there any cases that come close in similarity?

See, I keep harping on this because it keeps getting downplayed. Terri didn't get a lawyer after three and a half weeks, she got a lawyer after LE made it clear they were doing their best to incriminate her. I think one of the most dangerous parts of true crime is accepting the "logic" of LE: If the suspect would let us trample all over their rights, we could solve the case. Why won't they let us solve the case?

Getting a lawyer in Terri's position was the right thing to do. It didn't hinder the investigation, it didn't keep LE from finding Kyron.
I don't believe that innocent parents never think of anything else to tell or ask LE after three and a half weeks. What are you doing now? Have you looked here? Have you talked to that person? Have you tried this? What's happening? Have you made any progress?
Telling? I see no reason why only guilty people run out of things to tell LE after intensive weeks of questioning and searching. Can't see the logic at all.

Asking? Not a luxury afforded to Terri once LE made it clear they were targeting her. Sad, but in no way her fault.
And I don't believe that there wasn't even one parent that questioned the school and wanted to hold them accountable if they believed they were at fault. Parents don't operate that way. It was their BABIES involved, they would have absolutely "foughht city hall" on behalf of their children. Much more likely the parents knew things about the situation and Terri that the rest of us don't know. They were the ones who saw her and knew her and had volunteered with her and knew her from the community. Now why would they believe Tony and Desiree and Kaine over Terri? After all, according to Terri's supporters, the other parents weren't visible in the school at all. Not the way Terri was. She was known by the staff and many other parents. We don't know what those parents know.

Again, it was never just the bioparents. It was law enforcement. It was the media.

What would parents, whose children weren't taken, sue over?

And my personal guess is that there are a lot fewer parents, teachers and former students of Skyline who are convinced that Terri did it than is usually assumed by outsiders.
 
With all due respect to Kaine who is also a victim in this. His grief was palpable at times and my heart bled for him.

It is my opinion, however, that he is in denial. About many things.
Yet Desiree remains the sole source of any indication that Terri hated Kyron. And, also with all due respect, after having read the Morris book, I think she, too, is in denial. About many things.

in the end, Kaine and Desiree read the same mails. I have a hard time thinking that if these mails said anything like "I hate Kyron" or "I'd like to hurt Kyron", Kaine would just go, nope, didn't see that. The fact that Desiree has known about these mails for over a decade, but the brief bit in the book - unrelated to any Kyron hating - is all she has ever quoted from them? Not to mention the changes in seriousness and qualifiers that keep coming up?

I think it's safe to say that "Terri hated Kyron and wanted to hurt him" is Desiree's interpretation of text that doesn't actually say that.
 
See, I keep harping on this because it keeps getting downplayed. Terri didn't get a lawyer after three and a half weeks, she got a lawyer after LE made it clear they were doing their best to incriminate her.
It appears Terri got a lawyer when she realized law enforcement was focusing on her and she couldn't manipulate the situation. It all seems to have started with those worthless lie detector tests that belong in the land of voodoo science. (Desiree, Kaine, and Tony all passed their polys).

A "refresher" timeline:
Around June 7, 2010: (1st poly)
Snipped: Tarver says on June 8, four days after Kyron disappeared, [J.] called him from the Hormans' house and mentioned Terri Moulton Horman had taken a polygraph test.

Around June 10, 2010: (2nd poly)
Snipped: Terri Moulton Horman, who Young says “likes to play the victim,” didn’t even finish the second polygraph test when it became clear she wasn’t doing well. “She walked out of [it] halfway through,” Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, says.

Around June 18, 2010: (1st Flyer distributed with two pictures of Terri)
Snipped: Kyron Horman's stepmother -- who became the most prominent figure in the investigation into the boy's disappearance Friday ...
Kyron Horman 1st Flyer Terri Only.jpg

Around June 20, 2010: (3rd poly)
Snipped: A source confirms to PEOPLE that she took that second test.

Around June 26, 2010: (Details revealed about the murder-for-hire plot)
Snipped: Authorities deemed the landscaper's account credible and serious, and they shared it with Kyron's father, Kaine Horman, the same afternoon of the undercover operation.
The landscaper's account prompted Kaine Horman to leave his wife and take their 19-month-old daughter. Within two days, he obtained a family law attorney and filed divorce papers and a petition for a restraining order against his wife.


Snipped from the motion to Modify the Restraining Order:
13. Following Kyron’s disappearance, I began to have concerns that Respondent had done something with Kyron, and was not being truthful. Respondent failed the first polygraph test law enforcement gave her regarding Kyron’s disappearance. Respondent’s reaction and behavior after this test were highly unusual and suspect. I asked Respondent repeatedly for answers regarding her whereabouts on June 4, 2010 and Kyron’s location. During those conversations, she never expressly denied to me her involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, though she has subsequently denied her involvement to law enforcement. She did not answer my questions, and provided no explanations. Her story changed. She showed no emotion or concern for Kyron. She seemed only focused on her interests and problems with law enforcement. Respondent even stated “I am done cooperating” with law enforcement and expressed her desire to hire a criminal lawyer.

About June 30, 2010: (Enter Mr. Houze)
Snipped quote: Houze later Wednesday night did confirm to The Oregonian that he was representing Kyron's stepmom, but said he could not comment further.

About June 30, 2010: (And Mr. Cook)
Snipped: The father of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman argues in court papers that his wife struck up an intimate and sexual relationship with one of his high school friends and shared confidential information from a sealed restraining order that allowed him to map the address where Kaine has lived with their daughter since he moved out of his home.
 
Even if Terri were innocent, I don't know how the investigation would be able to move away from her. She claims she knew him best, knew him from the time he was a baby, took care of him the most, knew more about him than anyone, volunteered in his classroom. She even made a doctor's appointment for him because she thought there was something that needed to be checked out. She knew his teachers and his friends and his school building inside out. She helped him with his science project. She was with him at home and in the truck on the way to school and in the school and in his classroom that morning. She took a picture of him. She was with him right before he disappeared. She was the last person to see him. That makes her a, if not the, prime witness, imo. I don't know how the investigation can be talked about without referencing Terri. She knew what he was most likely to have done, who he was most likely to have talked to and seen, what his reactions and responses would have been to any given situation. According to her anyway. She said she loved him.
This doesn't sound like Terri hated Kyron. It sounds like she loved him.
 
This doesn't sound like Terri hated Kyron. It sounds like she loved him.
Those were the things she claimed she did. Her claims, not necessarily the truth. And even if she did all those things, it still doesn't prove she loved him. After all, Gannon Stauch's stepmother claimed she did everything for him, and we know there were large amounts of time when she was the caregiver and look how that turned out. She's awaiting trial for his death.
 
Sure, but at this point I believe I have answered your question.

Let's assume it's true that every other (innocent) parent does that. In how many of those cases were the parent directly targeted with an undercover sting operation, directly followed by LE turning their spouse against them? Are there any cases that come close in similarity?

See, I keep harping on this because it keeps getting downplayed. Terri didn't get a lawyer after three and a half weeks, she got a lawyer after LE made it clear they were doing their best to incriminate her. I think one of the most dangerous parts of true crime is accepting the "logic" of LE: If the suspect would let us trample all over their rights, we could solve the case. Why won't they let us solve the case?

Getting a lawyer in Terri's position was the right thing to do. It didn't hinder the investigation, it didn't keep LE from finding Kyron.

Telling? I see no reason why only guilty people run out of things to tell LE after intensive weeks of questioning and searching. Can't see the logic at all.

Asking? Not a luxury afforded to Terri once LE made it clear they were targeting her. Sad, but in no way her fault.


Again, it was never just the bioparents. It was law enforcement. It was the media.

What would parents, whose children weren't taken, sue over?

And my personal guess is that there are a lot fewer parents, teachers and former students of Skyline who are convinced that Terri did it than is usually assumed by outsiders.
I don't consider my question about why LE never put out a description of "the man" answered. I don't believe there was a vast conspiracy of all the LE agencies that have worked on the case; that they all focused on Terri since the beginning and never considered anyone else; and that they were all incompetent from the beginning to now. Why didn't Terri put out the description? Why didn't someone go to the media with the description?

I don't believe out of all the innocent parents whose children have gone missing and have been suspected themselves, that no one has had it as bad as Terri. To me that doesn't say "poor Terri;" it says "guilty Terri."

If she's innocent, they wronged her. If she's guilty, she manipulated and lied and played the victim.

I don't believe in a vast conspiracy of all the media and all LE who influenced parents to go against what they believed was best for their children. Why have we never heard of Skyline parents who believed the school was at fault for Kyron's disappearance? Wouldn't those parents raise holy heck and demand that the school immediately change things? I'm sure some things did change, but where was the criticism by parents who maybe left Skyline for other schools? Calls for the school to be shut down? The principal and teacher fired and lose their certification? Maybe I missed all that.
 
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Yet Desiree remains the sole source of any indication that Terri hated Kyron. And, also with all due respect, after having read the Morris book, I think she, too, is in denial. About many things.

in the end, Kaine and Desiree read the same mails. I have a hard time thinking that if these mails said anything like "I hate Kyron" or "I'd like to hurt Kyron", Kaine would just go, nope, didn't see that. The fact that Desiree has known about these mails for over a decade, but the brief bit in the book - unrelated to any Kyron hating - is all she has ever quoted from them? Not to mention the changes in seriousness and qualifiers that keep coming up?

I think it's safe to say that "Terri hated Kyron and wanted to hurt him" is Desiree's interpretation of text that doesn't actually say that.
From the beginning, the mantra has been: Desiree is not credible. You can't believe what Desiree says. She's maybe a little off. After all, Terri took her husband so that explains why she thinks she's guilty. As if Desiree would put her feelings toward Terri above finding her son. I don't buy it. JMO
 
Following his disappearance, Skyline lost a few students, but Matt Shelby, spokesman for the district, says that's normal.
"Every year schools have students who come and go," he says. "A couple of families opted out, but there has not been a mass exodus."
The school was outfitted with video surveillance in August, thanks to a donation from Chown Hardware in Northwest Portland.
It now has the most complete surveillance in the district.
Mr. Shelby doesn't come right out and say it, but his statement implies (BBM for focus) a couple of families may have left Skyline because of Kyron's disappearance. Also, parents may have voiced concerns about the lack of security at the time, or any school polices which may have contributed to his disappearance, to the school board, but not to the press, and we would never know unless we had access to the school board's minutes.

Desiree Young said that relationship broke up their marriage, but Kaine said they were already living separate lives in the same house. In August, when Desiree was 8 months pregnant, she filed for divorce.
 
I don't consider my question about why LE never put out a description of "the man" answered. I don't believe there was a vast conspiracy of all the LE agencies that have worked on the case; that they all focused on Terri since the beginning and never considered anyone else; and that they were all incompetent from the beginning to now. Why didn't Terri put out the description? Why didn't someone go to the media with the description?
Why would Terri have the description? I suppose someone else could do it, but one thing that has been clear from the start is that the police have urged witnesses not to discuss things with the media.

In terms of why, I'd say it's their idea of investigative tactics. But it is undeniable that the police had a suspect - one who wasn't Terri and that they believed wasn't Dede - that they asked the public about without distributing a description.
I don't believe out of all the innocent parents whose children have gone missing and have been suspected themselves, that no one has had it as bad as Terri. To me that doesn't say "poor Terri;" it says "guilty Terri."
So is there one, or not?
I don't believe in a vast conspiracy of all the media and all LE who influenced parents to go against what they believed was best for their children. Why have we never heard of Skyline parents who believed the school was at fault for Kyron's disappearance? Wouldn't those parents raise holy heck and demand that the school immediately change things? I'm sure some things did change, but where was the criticism by parents who maybe left Skyline for other schools? Calls for the school to be shut down? The principal and teacher fired and lose their certification? Maybe I missed all that.
But the school immediately changed things. And as @Alleykins shows, there probably were a few who left altogether.

Is that a regular occurrance when a child is abducted from school? That other parents - not those of the missing child - make all these demands? After the police and the media have heaped all the blame on a single outside individual?
 
From the beginning, the mantra has been: Desiree is not credible. You can't believe what Desiree says. She's maybe a little off. After all, Terri took her husband so that explains why she thinks she's guilty. As if Desiree would put her feelings toward Terri above finding her son. I don't buy it. JMO
It's (most likely) not a deliberate thing. As in, Desiree wasn't sitting there going "gosh how I hate her, I'll just start to accuse her for no reason".

What cemented it for me was reading the Morris book, which is 90% from Desiree's perspective. It's her telling of all events, of her thoughts and feelings about them. And from the very start, she claims she immediately jumped to the conclusion that Terri was lying based on her own misconception of Terri's words (the idea that Terri wouldn't be able to see Kyron from where she stood). This was a school Desiree had only visited once, a long time ago, yet her immediate thought wasn't that she herself might remember wrong, it was that Terri was lying about it.

It continues like that. When Terri clarifies something, she changes her story. When she behaves a certain way, it's suspicious. From the start, Desiree has decided Terri was involved - enough so that she told the police so within hours of arriving in Portland - and naturally everything Terri does or says will therefore be the words and actions of a guilty person. The cart is before the horse.

Regarding the emails, it's simple:

* The emails were between Terri and the stepmother of Desiree's other son.
* Kaine read the emails and showed them to Desiree.
* Desiree then began to claim the emails said Terri hated Kyron and wanted to hurt him.
* Kaine claims this content wasn't in the emails.
* Desiree has to this day not quoted any passage dealing with Kyron-hate from the emails directly, despite being able to quote a whole sentence from the emails for the Morris book.

Everything points towards the emails being another case of Desiree reading the worst into something relating to Terri.
 
* Later they get professional assistance that show they were wrong - the cell tower (which isn't even on the island) services the entire area, including Hwy 30 - meaning there was no contradiction between cell phone data and Terri's account.

* However, at this point, the investigators have sunk a lot of cost in the Terri option. They've got the gardnener, the truck sightings based on posters with Terri in them - so this one slips away...
BBM I'm not seeing anything as slipping away.

The area on the other side of the cell tower was also searched.

Terri remained, and remains, the focus of their investigation. No reason to change that.

Snipped: Search and rescue teams equipped with cadaver-detecting dogs focused Sunday's search in areas of Dixie Mountain outside Portland. About 50 searchers combed forested areas around turnouts, trailheads and gated logging roads. A thick fog settled over the area in late afternoon and the search ended at about 5 p.m.

Sheriff's spokeswoman Lt. Mary Lindstrand said the search for Kyron resumed Sunday based on specific information received by investigators, but she declined to elaborate.

The sheriff's office said 11 areas were to be searched and the search of all those areas had not been completed. The date for the next search had yet to be determined.


Snipped quote: According to Multnomah County sheriff's spokeswoman Mary Lindstrand, at least 40 rescue workers and a handful of search dogs took part in the effort. They searched an area of Northwest Skyline Road near Rocky Point Road, plus a gravel road in the Dixie Mountain area.

Lindstrand said the areas were searched because of information gathered during the investigation into Kyron's disappearance. She said the warm weather makes it possible to search those areas with dogs.

 
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