VERDICT WATCH OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered - 4 Wagner Family Members Arrested #85

[Cool Cats]

That punishment may be dealt out next week.

Monday and Tuesday are closing arguments. Then It will take time for Deering to go over jury instructions and I think there is still a Motion, at least one, to rule on. Then the jury will need alot of time to go over so much evidence.

We most likely will get to hear what the jury requests to hear or see again while they are in deliberations. You know, the jury gives a message to the judge they want to see such and such piece of evidence again, or read such and such transcript again etc....

The jury has 22 charges so it will take longer. Could take a few weeks before we get verdicts.

They say, (not fact) that if a jury gives a quick verdict it means a better chance the defendant will be found not guilty.

5 things to watch as we await a verdict in the Derek Chauvin trial - Poynter

Troops and police are gathering. The three charges Chauvin faces. What the length of deliberations means. The effects of serving as a juror. And more.

www.poynter.org

"Quick verdicts generally favor the defendant. As hours stretch on, it signals that jurors are taking evidence seriously and consider the evidence to have at least some validity. This deep study of verdicts says the reason that convictions often take longer is that the burden of proof is on the prosecution."

 

[Chelly]

Monday and Tuesday are closing arguments. Then It will take time for Deering to go over jury instructions and I think there is still a Motion, at least one, to rule on. Then the jury will need alot of time to go over so much evidence.

We most likely will get to hear what the jury requests to hear or see again while they are in deliberations. You know, the jury gives a message to the judge they want to see such and such piece of evidence again, or read such and such transcript again etc....

The jury has 22 charges so it will take longer. Could take a few weeks before we get verdicts.

They say, (not fact) that if a jury gives a quick verdict it means a better chance the defendant will be found not guilty.

5 things to watch as we await a verdict in the Derek Chauvin trial - Poynter

Troops and police are gathering. The three charges Chauvin faces. What the length of deliberations means. The effects of serving as a juror. And more.

www.poynter.org

"Quick verdicts generally favor the defendant. As hours stretch on, it signals that jurors are taking evidence seriously and consider the evidence to have at least some validity. This deep study of verdicts says the reason that convictions often take longer is that the burden of proof is on the prosecution."

Well, I just gotta say it: I am impatient for a verdict.

 

[Betty P]

Living your best life, especially in OH, under the name George Wagner, would be problematic. I would change my last name.

But he won't have this problem when he is found guilty of murder and sentenced to LWOP. In prison he is just another number.

I hope he's convicted and locked up for a long time. Not only do the victims and families deserve justice, GW4 is likely to engage in further violent behavior, possibly killing again.

He has a terrible temper, a twisted sense of entitlement, anti-social personality disorder. He's grown up and lived in a criminal family environment with no boundaries, no respect for laws or social rules. If he's sprung from jail, he will have a big chip on his shoulder, a great deal of fury and resentment. He won't have benefited from his incarceration.

JMO, he'll be a ticking time bomb, wherever he goes.

 

[Cool Cats]

Heres a theory i havnt seen mentioned- in regards to the security system found in the fire pit- What if GW3 had the boys go and buy a security system for the new grow operation he had going with CRsr?

It was never said there was a new grow op going on with Chris and Billy. No one knows how involved Billy was or wasn't with Chris's grow op. It was said Billy set up a fake drug deal with Chris to get access to Chris that night. Billy used a phone under someone else's name plus used burner phones.

Billy was a drug runner but not necessarily for Chris specifically.

Jake, I think it was, bought a home security system for Peterson Rd and Billy told him to take it down, that he didn't want BCI to see their comings and goings. I was said that it was put up at Angie's dad's house but I don't get that because Angie's dad was still living in his house. He didn't pass away until November 2017, and Angie didn't move into her dad's house until spring 2018. She inherited the house.

 

[Cool Cats]

I hope he's convicted and locked up for a long time. Not only do the victims and families deserve justice, GW4 is likely to engage in further violent behavior, possibly killing again.

He has a terrible temper, a twisted sense of entitlement, anti-social personality disorder. He's grown up and lived in a criminal family environment with no boundaries, no respect for laws or social rules. If he's sprung from jail, he will have a big chip on his shoulder, a great deal of fury and resentment. He won't have benefited from his incarceration.

JMO, he'll be a ticking time bomb, wherever he goes.

Good post. Need more like them. Boy he sure sounded different on the stand than in those angry yelling paranoid recordings they have of him with his enmeshed family calling Elizabeth and his little niece the B word. Jury will see right through him. He even seemed proud of his illegal poaching on the stand. I think he admitted this on the stand.

 

[Betty P]

It was never said there was a new grow op going on with Chris and Billy. No one knows how involved Billy was or wasn't with Chris's grow op. It was said Billy set up a fake drug deal with Chris to get access to Chris that night. Billy used a phone under someone else's name plus used burner phones.

Billy was a drug runner but not necessarily for Chris specifically.

Jake, I think it was, bought a home security system for Peterson Rd and Billy told him to take it down, that he didn't want BCI to see their comings and goings. I was said that it was put up at Angie's dad's house but I don't get that because Angie's dad was still living in his house. He didn't pass away until November 2017, and Angie didn't move into her dad's house until spring 2018. She inherited the house.

That's all I've heard so far. Billy was never really a business partner with Chris Sr and Kenneth. Those guys were pretty much just selling the weed from their grow ops. Billy tried to get Chris to go with him to the "west" on some drug deal, but Chris bailed out at Cincinnati. He didn't trust Billy.

Billy Wagner’s interview with BCI agents played at Pike County trial

George Wagner IV's brother and mother are expected to testify against him later this month

www.fox19.com

Ditto on the fake drug deal used as a ruse to get Chris Sr to open his door. If Chris & Billy were such great friends, why did Billy need to create a ruse to get Chris to talk to him. They weren't great friends. They'd recently had a big disagreement. Billy's wife had trapped Chris's daughter at the Wagner home and tried to prevent Chris taking her home. Chris was preparing to hire an attorney to help Hanna with her custody battle with Jake.

I don't think Chris Sr and Billy were ever "good friends".

I also don't believe the claim that Chris Sr was "holding" some $40,000 that belonged to Billy. JMO, Billy tried to rip off Chris Sr and Chris didn't fall for it. Chris and Kenny wouldn't be in business so long if they ripped off their customers.

 

[Niner]

Monday and Tuesday are closing arguments. Then It will take time for Deering to go over jury instructions and I think there is still a Motion, at least one, to rule on. Then the jury will need alot of time to go over so much evidence.

We most likely will get to hear what the jury requests to hear or see again while they are in deliberations. You know, the jury gives a message to the judge they want to see such and such piece of evidence again, or read such and such transcript again etc....

The jury has 22 charges so it will take longer. Could take a few weeks before we get verdicts.

They say, (not fact) that if a jury gives a quick verdict it means a better chance the defendant will be found not guilty.

5 things to watch as we await a verdict in the Derek Chauvin trial - Poynter

Troops and police are gathering. The three charges Chauvin faces. What the length of deliberations means. The effects of serving as a juror. And more.

www.poynter.org

"Quick verdicts generally favor the defendant. As hours stretch on, it signals that jurors are taking evidence seriously and consider the evidence to have at least some validity. This deep study of verdicts says the reason that convictions often take longer is that the burden of proof is on the prosecution."

and from my notes:

Judge Randy Deering last week told jurors to expect to begin deliberations no later than Nov. 30.

 

[Betty P]

More baloney from Billy's interview above, trying to point the finger away from the Wagner family. He was even trying to blame the local Pike County deputies

Billy Wagner made references to Chris Rhoden Sr. possibly owing money to a Cincinnati drug dealer, having “weed coming in” and the so-called “Cornbread Mafia” (Kentucky pill mills).

That sounds close to something Billy had done - ripping off a Cincinnati drug dealer and the Cornbread Mafia controlling KY pill mills. Don't forget GW4 testifying about how Billy and Angela made regular trips to Florida to get oxy from pain doctors there, bringing them up to sell in Ohio.

Whoever did it, he told them, “That is some real Seal Team 6 s***.”

He repeated a rumor twice that Hanna May Rhoden was dating a deputy sheriff. He told agents a deputy’s vehicle was parked on Union Hill Road the night of the murders.

 

[Cool Cats]

Well, I just gotta say it: I am impatient for a verdict.

Yes! Once this finally gets sent into jury deliberations everyone will be impatient for a verdict.

22 charges they have to go over one at a time. I bet some have already decided if they think he is guilty of the Murder Conspiracy. For those who don't think he is, I hope deliberations change their minds.

The jury does not have to agree on every piece of evidence and on every single thing a witness said. Just see enough evidence adding up so all agree that George was at least involved in the Murder Conspiracy at some point.

That he wasn't ignorant of it. That he could have stopped it but deliberately chose to let the murders happen.

I can easily see the jury not believing that George knew nothing about it. That the jury sees it is beyond a reasonable doubt that George's family would keep him out of voting for the murders.

That it is beyond a reasonable doubt that he lived totally enmeshed with them but then they would deliberately hide the murder plans from him. Billy can't stop blabing, Angela rubbed his back every night discussing their day, Jake rode thousands of miles in a truck with him.

Not realistic George was ignorant of the Wagner Crime Family Murder Conspiracy. Prosecutors did good job proving this.

Next jump? Believing George was involved with the planning. Next step? He went along to the murder scenes. Next step? He tampered with the evidence from that night.

 

[Betty P]

and from my notes:

Judge Randy Deering last week told jurors to expect to begin deliberations no later than Nov. 30.

I'm not an expert, but I'm guessing it will take the better part of the day for the Judge to instruct the jurors. I wonder how many objections N&P will have and how many last minute motions they'll file?

 

[Niner]

I'm not an expert, but I'm guessing it will take the better part of the day for the Judge to instruct the jurors. I wonder how many objections N&P will have and how many last minute motions they'll file?

True - I expect the Judge to rule on the left over motions first thing Monday morning & then Prosecutor to go most of Monday & maybe into Tuesday morning, then defense - maybe going over to Wed. & than rebuttal by pros (maybe) - and judge reads jury instruction - late Wednesday into Thursday morning.

And I predict verdict by Dec. 15th!

 

[Chelly]

Yes! Once this finally gets sent into jury deliberations everyone will be impatient for a verdict.

22 charges they have to go over one at a time. I bet some have already decided if they think he is guilty of the Murder Conspiracy. For those who don't think he is, I hope deliberations change their minds.

The jury does not have to agree on every piece of evidence and on every single thing a witness said. Just see enough evidence adding up so all agree that George was at least involved in the Murder Conspiracy at some point.

That he wasn't ignorant of it. That he could have stopped it but deliberately chose to let the murders happen.

I can easily see the jury not believing that George knew nothing about it. That the jury sees it is beyond a reasonable doubt that George's family would keep him out of voting for the murders.

That it is beyond a reasonable doubt that he lived totally enmeshed with them but then they would deliberately hide the murder plans from him. Billy can't stop blabing, Angela rubbed his back every night discussing their day, Jake rode thousands of miles in a truck with him.

Not realistic George was ignorant of the Wagner Crime Family Murder Conspiracy. Prosecutors did good proving this.

Next jump? Believing George was involved with the planning. Next step? He went along. Next step? He tampered with evidence.

I hear you and believe jury will likely agree

 

[Cool Cats]

I hear you and believe jury will likely agree

Yes.

I think the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the Wagners' did not spend 4-5 months keeping their Murder Conspiracy a secret from George. Totally not realistic.

The prosecution proved their Case that George was enmeshed with his family, even cult-like as Canepa put it,
and they were suspicious of anyone who penetrated their circle, including wives, this was even mentioned in MSM.

The prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that yes, George knew about and even voted for, this Murder Conspiracy. Then allowed it to happen.

And if George is guilty of Murder Conspiracy he is also guilty of murder in OH law.

Thus, I predict guilty verdicts for George.

 

[rsd1200]

Jmo Angela stating that George told her that was his print is one of the biggest reason I believe she is lying. That is information she volunteered to Capena. She went above and beyond to try to put George there. What mother does that? Even for her plea deal that information wasn’t needed, but yet she added that extra detail to try to get a good deal. To mean that statement tells that she is all about self and will lie as much as it takes for herself. Jmo

I have wondered about that. How did GW4 even know about the footprint, to tell Mommy Dearest, that the footprint was his? When they went in for the foot molds? I don't think we, the public, heard there was shoeprint evidence until early 2020 when JW's attorneys filed some motions, then G3's attorneys filed a motion regarding them, in late 2020.

They wouldn't have told the Ws anymore than necessary, b/c of the sealed nature of the case, when they brought them in for foot molds, jm2. Yet, BCI would then know all of their actual shoes sizes, by doing so too. We have never been told any of the W4's actual shoe sizes (but the jury might have been).

We only know what JW said as to who wore what size. GW wore the size 11, and he wore the 10.5. JW said he told his mother to pick up sizes, smaller than what they would normally wear.

Then we have AW: She said George told her there was a bloody footprint at one of the crime scenes. Angela said G4 told her “I wanted to smudge it but dad said, ‘Don’t worry about it and come on.’” Dad referred to George’s father G3 , who is also pleading not guilty and is scheduled to go on trial later this year. Angela also said George told her, “The shoeprint was his.” (But there were prints, plural)

Note: Also on the stand, Angela said it was her idea to plead guilty, and had not been approached by the state. She said she took the deal in the hopes of one day getting out of prison to give her sons and grandchildren hugs and kisses. (So, AC didn't offer, AW's attorneys must have contacted AC, with, let's make a deal. AW wanted to save AW's hide.)
Angela Wagner ties son to crime scenes with footprints, says she regrets sons' involvement

(So, after all of that planning, and G3's years of teaching about how to avoid detection, G3 says to G4, don't worry about smudging that print, I mean prints, let's go. They had time to do all this other stuff, but not a split second to smudge shoeprints? I don't think G3 would've said that. I don't think G4 said that b/c had anyone there, known they'd left prints, it wouldn't have taken much to have smeared a bloody print)

Agent S. Elliot, BCI, (asked not to be recorded as she testified). So, it turns out it was three prints in all. One print at DR's trailer, and two at CR1's trailer, one a size 11, and one a size 10.5 (determined by a toe impression) both were shoeprints of a left shoe, and almost on top of each other, at CR1's. BCI could rule out CR1 and GR as the wearers of the shoes, and two other R family members who had entered the crime scene at 4077 UHR, but could not state that GW4 had worn either pair of shoes. Aha Moment for BCI Investigator

I guess someone out of the three was very light on their feet.

 

[pamelado2]

Dimensional lumber (2x4, 4x6 etc) is smaller then advertised but sheet is right on the mark. 4ft x 8ft is 48" x 96". Still close i agree, now run a 2x4 down each side of the inside of the bed rail, on edge like was testified to. A 2x4 on edge is 1.5" wide, x2 is 3", so now 49" becomes 46" which leaves a 1" support down both sides for the osb. Very doable imho.

I thought the 2x4 was just screwed onto the bottom of the board for stability, so it wouldn't change the width of the osb, right?

 

[pamelado2]

I have wondered about that. How did GW4 even know about the footprint, to tell Mommy Dearest, that the footprint was his? When they went in for the foot molds? I don't think we, the public, heard there was shoeprint evidence until early 2020 when JW's attorneys filed some motions, then G3's attorneys filed a motion regarding them, in late 2020.

They wouldn't have told the Ws anymore than necessary, b/c of the sealed nature of the case, when they brought them in for foot molds, jm2. Yet, BCI would then know all of their actual shoes sizes, by doing so too. We have never been told any of the W4's actual shoe sizes (but the jury might have been).

We only know what JW said as to who wore what size. GW wore the size 11, and he wore the 10.5. JW said he told his mother to pick up sizes, smaller than what they would normally wear.

Then we have AW: She said George told her there was a bloody footprint at one of the crime scenes. Angela said G4 told her “I wanted to smudge it but dad said, ‘Don’t worry about it and come on.’” Dad referred to George’s father G3 , who is also pleading not guilty and is scheduled to go on trial later this year. Angela also said George told her, “The shoeprint was his.” (But there were prints, plural)

Note: Also on the stand, Angela said it was her idea to plead guilty, and had not been approached by the state. She said she took the deal in the hopes of one day getting out of prison to give her sons and grandchildren hugs and kisses. (So, AC didn't offer, AW's attorneys must have contacted AC, with, let's make a deal. AW wanted to save AW's hide.)
Angela Wagner ties son to crime scenes with footprints, says she regrets sons' involvement

(So, after all of that planning, and G3's years of teaching about how to avoid detection, G3 says to G4, don't worry about smudging that print, I mean prints, let's go. They had time to do all this other stuff, but not a split second to smudge shoeprints? I don't think G3 would've said that. I don't think G4 said that b/c had anyone there, known they'd left prints, it wouldn't have taken much to have smeared a bloody print)

Agent S. Elliot, BCI, (asked not to be recorded as she testified). So, it turns out it was three prints in all. One print at DR's trailer, and two at CR1's trailer, one a size 11, and one a size 10.5 (determined by a toe impression) both were shoeprints of a left shoe, and almost on top of each other, at CR1's. BCI could rule out CR1 and GR as the wearers of the shoes, and two other R family members who had entered the crime scene at 4077 UHR, but could not state that GW4 had worn either pair of shoes. Aha Moment for BCI Investigator

I guess someone out of the three was very light on their feet.

BCI showed them the shoe prints. And the receipt for the shoes.

 

[Cool Cats]

I have wondered about that. How did GW4 even know about the footprint, to tell Mommy Dearest, that the footprint was his? When they went in for the foot molds? I don't think we, the public, heard there was shoeprint evidence until early 2020 when JW's attorneys filed some motions, then G3's attorneys filed a motion regarding them, in late 2020.

They wouldn't have told the Ws anymore than necessary, b/c of the sealed nature of the case, when they brought them in for foot molds, jm2. Yet, BCI would then know all of their actual shoes sizes, by doing so too. We have never been told any of the W4's actual shoe sizes (but the jury might have been).

We only know what JW said as to who wore what size. GW wore the size 11, and he wore the 10.5. JW said he told his mother to pick up sizes, smaller than what they would normally wear.

Then we have AW: She said George told her there was a bloody footprint at one of the crime scenes. Angela said G4 told her “I wanted to smudge it but dad said, ‘Don’t worry about it and come on.’” Dad referred to George’s father G3 , who is also pleading not guilty and is scheduled to go on trial later this year. Angela also said George told her, “The shoeprint was his.” (But there were prints, plural)

Note: Also on the stand, Angela said it was her idea to plead guilty, and had not been approached by the state. She said she took the deal in the hopes of one day getting out of prison to give her sons and grandchildren hugs and kisses. (So, AC didn't offer, AW's attorneys must have contacted AC, with, let's make a deal. AW wanted to save AW's hide.)
Angela Wagner ties son to crime scenes with footprints, says she regrets sons' involvement

(So, after all of that planning, and G3's years of teaching about how to avoid detection, G3 says to G4, don't worry about smudging that print, I mean prints, let's go. They had time to do all this other stuff, but not a split second to smudge shoeprints? I don't think G3 would've said that. I don't think G4 said that b/c had anyone there, known they'd left prints, it wouldn't have taken much to have smeared a bloody print)

Agent S. Elliot, BCI, (asked not to be recorded as she testified). So, it turns out it was three prints in all. One print at DR's trailer, and two at CR1's trailer, one a size 11, and one a size 10.5 (determined by a toe impression) both were shoeprints of a left shoe, and almost on top of each other, at CR1's. BCI could rule out CR1 and GR as the wearers of the shoes, and two other R family members who had entered the crime scene at 4077 UHR, but could not state that GW4 had worn either pair of shoes. Aha Moment for BCI Investigator

I guess someone out of the three was very light on their feet.

An obvious bloody shoe print was left at Chris Sr's, I have posted Scheiderer holding the photo of the bloody print. I always wondered why they left it.

So it makes sense George knew it was there and mentioned it to Angie - that he thought it was his - and that he wanted to smear it but Billy was in a hurry and told him to leave it. It explains why it wasn't smeared out like the others were. Obviously other prints were smeared or they would have found more bloody prints to use at Chris's.

Angie did not have to make this up for her deal. She already said George left with them that night.

 

[Chelly]

Yes.

I think the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the Wagners' did not spend 4-5 months keeping their Murder Conspiracy a secret from George. Totally not realistic.

The prosecution proved their Case that George was enmeshed with his family, even cult-like as Canepa put it,
and they were suspicious of anyone who penetrated their circle, including wives, this was even mentioned in MSM.

The prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that yes, George knew about and even voted for, this Murder Conspiracy. Then allowed it to happen.

And if George is guilty of Murder Conspiracy he is also guilty of murder in OH law.

Thus, I predict guilty verdicts for George.

I will agree.

I have believed in the W-4's guilt since the day they hightailed it to Alaska.

But, when it came to GW4's trial, I began to have doubts about the prosecution. I thought prosecution was not presenting enough solid evidence to convict GW4 of murder. This was frustrating.

Recently, someone asked, "What would a reasonable person conclude....?"
So, I began rereading testimony and thinking in terms of preponderance of evidence, even if circumstantial. Believing this jury is comprised of 12 reasonable and logical people, they will conclude GW4 is guilty.

I wish it hadn't taken me such a long time to walk around this block.

 

[silenced]

I’m with you, Chelly. Coming into this trial I was sure without a doubt George was quilty. I couldn’t imagine why he took this to trial and didn’t take a plea. Now I wonder why Jake confessed!

I’m glad he did. I do think they are guilty. All of them. Without jake’s confession, we don’t have much.

Jake is playing games, though. He is evil! I’m not convinced George is guilty. What if he is innocent?

 

[silenced]

An obvious bloody shoe print was left at Chris Sr's, I have posted Scheiderer holding the photo of the bloody print. I always wondered why they left it.

So it makes sense George knew it was there and mentioned it to Angie - that he thought it was his - and that he wanted to smear it but Billy was in a hurry and told him to leave it. It explains why it wasn't smeared out like the others were. Obviously other prints were smeared or they would have found more bloody prints to use at Chris's.

Angie did not have to make this up for her deal. She already said George left with them that night.

I think we wanted to have someone to tie this to so badly that we believe whatever seems to fit. Why would we believe Angie?