ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 65

[10ofRods]

Professor Katherine Ramsland, who has studied serial killers as much as anyone in the world, says she can't do it. In an interview with The New York Times, she disputed claims that people who knew the so-called BTK killer should have been able to recognize his evil:

"When I mentioned my thoughts to Ramsland, though, she disagreed that people who knew Rader could have connected the dots. Why would they? To the contrary, one reason Ramsland believes that Rader was able to keep his cover was that 'he grew up in a Germanic Midwestern family where there was not a lot of emotion. Like my family.'"

In her book about BTK - “Confession” - she posits "that some serial killers are more like the rest of us than common wisdom tells us. In the annals of serial killers, [BTK] is hardly the only one who held down a facade of normalcy while hunting his prey, but he managed it far longer than many others. There are many qualities, Ramsland writes, that ordinary people share with so-called monsters: 'overestimating our willpower, idealizing ourselves, daydreaming about power, indulging in secret behaviors that keep attracting us, deceiving others and keeping secrets.'"

<snipped for focus>

Upon rereading this, it really struck me that the "veil of normalcy" is something I don't believe in, in any investigation I've worked. In fact, my very first mentors in LE all told me that it's that "normal" guy who needs to stay on the list for serial crimes, because they are consistently flying under the radar through their very normal actions. They bring a nice dish to the potluck. They arrive on time. They don't reveal too much. They smile a lot. They open doors for ladies, if they are men (which they usually are).

Indeed, so many LEO's have told me to suspect the "normal guy," as the sex crime offenders we were after almost always looked 'normal' to outsiders/even their families. By the time of BTK, surely this was known to criminologists?

Not sure how I feel about Ramsland's inventory of "normalcy," either. I know I have very little willpower and precisely which areas where I lack it - and I think I've known that for a long time and my parents knew their willpower limits as well. I don't overestimate mine, which is why I avoid certain situations, etc. I don't daydream about power - but it's possible I once did in some form as a young adult. At the same time, I was spending my free time writing to prisoners in prison as a co-ed penpal (!) which was not inspired by a quest for power. I was volunteering at a school for special needs kids and doing fieldwork at a high school that was traditionally all-black and impoverished. I don't think I was doing much daydreaming about power in those activities. I get the feeling that many WSers are in the same boat. I was idealistic.

Secret behaviors. Hmm. I am addicted to the internet (but can go without for weeks or months at a time - I definitely will miss it and must have books to take its place; this is lifelong). I learned in my own dissertation work that for some women (and almost never men), reading is indeed a secret behavior. It's not for me, any more, but I did have to hide it at certain points.

IOW, I find Ramsland's analytic categories very pop culture and not specific enough to meet any theoretical needs. In the end, I trust people more intuitive than I am to help me in sussing out the fakers among us. I don't even think BK was a faker - he was open and honest about his situation as early as age 14. Maybe he concealed his issues scrupulously in public - but the videos coming out from his friends/acquaintances say otherwise. So do his fellow students at WSU (at least some of them; some are probably scared to speak out). Not that his weird behaviors denoted mass murderer.

That's what I want to figure out, if possible. Can we find avenues for helping people who might be having homicidal fantasies? How do we do that? We have plenty of ways of giving them fuel, these days, but how do we limit them instead? Way too many murders in America to give up pondering such a question.

 

[Boxer]

He didn't turn his phone off during at least the 12 times mentioned in the PCA. LE were able to track him "stalking" the girls/house...that area...at nighttime into early morning hours.

MOO He did not know where his indulgence of his stalking would lead him those previous times.

 

[IDK]

Posting the quotes from BK’s professor about his master’s research— several have asked about it:


“Bolger noted that while Kohberger would post online questionnaires on online forums about crimes, this was nothing unusual.

"I was one of the professors who helped Bryan with his proposal on his graduate thesis, his capstone project. He did put out a routine questionnaire for his thesis. It looks weird, I understand from the public view. But in criminology it’s normal."

“She further added:

“It’s a criminology theory called script theory, it’s a normal theory on how and why criminals commit their crime, etc."”

“One of my best students”: Bryan Kohberger’s former criminology professor says Idaho murder suspect was ‘brilliant’ in college

On December 30, 2022, 28-year-old criminology graduate Bryan Kohberger was arrested on suspicion of murdering four University of Idaho students in Moscow, Idaho.

www.sportskeeda.com

 

[Palinsmom]

No. It's more like "bare bones template," like the forms that your doctor gives you for patient history.

I worked as a paralegal, mostly writing documents like this - but for civil trials. There's just standard language, usually state-wide, that everyone knows to start with, so as to get the widest range of discovery possible.

More categories can be added later.

It's not "fluff." But there's no need to reinvent the wheel when you're in a court of law. The Judge is going to recognize and approve things that have been recognized and approved 1000X before. It's more like using an ax to hack at a case, rather than "fluffing" like a pillow. It's not a comfortable process for anyone, can be tedious, but is also exciting as it goes on (for those privy to the results).

What it means is that no one is going to argue about the meaning of the words or what is intended to be sought and every judge is going to okay it. Adding in unusual things at the beginning just stalls the process.

Either side can delve deeper for further discovery. However, my experience of DA's and PD's says that they will cover their constitutional bases, but cannot possibly afford the hours and hours of "cleverness" that cause some private criminal defense attorneys can throw into a case (thereby making it drag on and on, but also, perhaps finding more evidence). The document filed satisfies all legal requirements, and every few years, we can expect such documents to grow longer, as they are organic.

Thank you . Now that I know it allows me to fully understand the post I’m reading when that word is included!

 

[10ofRods]

I’d like to know his motive, but I would not be too interested in his explanation of it—because I wouldn’t trust a word of it.

What would interest me more would be evidence of cyberstalking, or more evidence of real-world stalking. I think that in this day and age, his computer might say a lot about which girl, if any, specially interested him. What websites did he visit? Did he, by any chance, look up a floor plan of the house? I hope LE has his phone—we’re not sure of that yet, right? These days, I leave a bigger trail in my phone than on my computer.

All good points. And you are right. We will never get into his mind or know his motives, probably not even be able to guess at them.

The evidence you suggest would be enough for me. IOW, in the run-up to his awful crimes, was there a brief lead time of mostly overlooked bad behavior? Should we try to find out more about people who exhibit such behaviors? If he or his computer can give such an account, it would be very helpful.

When they arrested him in PA, there was an accompanying search warrant, IIRC, for everything in the house and some reporting about how thoroughly looked over/tossed the house was.

So yes, they have his phone, IMO. And his phone carrier has given over all records, as has Google and any other service he used to search or plot this crime (DuckDuckGo is not above a subpoena). It's odd to me that he apparently had no clue how many ways he could be tracked (not paying attention in class? too involved in what he himself would say next?)

 

[WildWest]

Wouldn't cold air (warmer than the outside air) also cause that? JMO

I think so too, and no doubt the furnace was working overtime with LE in and out.

 

[WildWest]

I watched an interview with a NYPD detective/CSI expert. He stated that evidence can be collected from the HVAC intake filters - hair. dog hair, sin cells, respiration molecules etc. all get sucked up into the filter and system.

Maybe the HVAC if full of his shed DNA?

*if* they had forced air, it might have also been a boiler, hot water baseboards. I wish we knew what kind of heat they used.

 

[kittythehare]

<snipped for focus>

Upon rereading this, it really struck me that the "veil of normalcy" is something I don't believe in, in any investigation I've worked. In fact, my very first mentors in LE all told me that it's that "normal" guy who needs to stay on the list for serial crimes, because they are consistently flying under the radar through their very normal actions. They bring a nice dish to the potluck. They arrive on time. They don't reveal too much. They smile a lot. They open doors for ladies, if they are men (which they usually are).

Indeed, so many LEO's have told me to suspect the "normal guy," as the sex crime offenders we were after almost always looked 'normal' to outsiders/even their families. By the time of BTK, surely this was known to criminologists?

Not sure how I feel about Ramsland's inventory of "normalcy," either. I know I have very little willpower and precisely which areas where I lack it - and I think I've known that for a long time and my parents knew their willpower limits as well. I don't overestimate mine, which is why I avoid certain situations, etc. I don't daydream about power - but it's possible I once did in some form as a young adult. At the same time, I was spending my free time writing to prisoners in prison as a co-ed penpal (!) which was not inspired by a quest for power. I was volunteering at a school for special needs kids and doing fieldwork at a high school that was traditionally all-black and impoverished. I don't think I was doing much daydreaming about power in those activities. I get the feeling that many WSers are in the same boat. I was idealistic.

Secret behaviors. Hmm. I am addicted to the internet (but can go without for weeks or months at a time - I definitely will miss it and must have books to take its place; this is lifelong). I learned in my own dissertation work that for some women (and almost never men), reading is indeed a secret behavior. It's not for me, any more, but I did have to hide it at certain points.

IOW, I find Ramsland's analytic categories very pop culture and not specific enough to meet any theoretical needs. In the end, I trust people more intuitive than I am to help me in sussing out the fakers among us. I don't even think BK was a faker - he was open and honest about his situation as early as age 14. Maybe he concealed his issues scrupulously in public - but the videos coming out from his friends/acquaintances say otherwise. So do his fellow students at WSU (at least some of them; some are probably scared to speak out). Not that his weird behaviors denoted mass murderer.

That's what I want to figure out, if possible. Can we find avenues for helping people who might be having homicidal fantasies? How do we do that? We have plenty of ways of giving them fuel, these days, but how do we limit them instead? Way too many murders in America to give up pondering such a question.

She didn't impress me either.
I'm not sure people with homicidal fantasies bring them into the light of day prior to acting upon them.
Hindsight's a fine thing .
Best one can hope for is that they are incarcerated for non violent crimes before they get to act them out.

 

[maskedwoman]

Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger had 'normal conversation' with neighbor: 'You heard about these murders?'

Fox Nation host Nancy Grace spoke with Bryan Kohberger's neighbor about the conversation, where the suspect suggested an early theory that it was a "crime of passion."

www.foxnews.com

Tonight's article on Fox includes quotes from an interview Nancy Grace did with the neighbor. Apparently, when Dad helped BK move in, he asked the neighbor to be friends with his son. NG compared it to setting up a play date. NG also said the neighbor's wife had a bad feeling BK and did not want him around.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I'm curious if there's a connection in choice of careers and studies with BK as there seemed to be evident in the Michael Swango case. Dr Swango is estimated to have been involved in as many as 60 fatal poisonings of patients and colleagues. Swango was attributed to having a fascination with death. Does it seem reasonable that BK was drawn to criminology for the same reason - so he could be closer to the experience himself?
Is this illness or evil? And how do we identify it and prevent it from escalating?

 

[Nova]

Most likely, you had chloral hydrate, not chloroform.

Chloral hydrate is no longer available for medical use, but was formerly frequently used in kids.

Chloroform works well in movies, but has never been clinically used on people.

I don't have a link, so everyone should feel free to disregard this: I watched a documentary recently that claimed that using chloroform in a struggle and unlike in the movies, one is as apt to knock one's self out as one's target.

 

[NottaYutz]

The lack of a sexual assault / motivated sexual attack is much more terrifying i think.
It means his goal was to sneak in, stab people and get out again. There doesn’t seem to be enough time for him to stay and torture the victims beforehand, admire what he’d done afterwards. He’s just gone straight in, murdered, and left

Truly terrifying

I do wonder if his original plan was to murder them and sexually attack afterwards, but they’d have been covered in blood at that point. I don’t know if this changed his mind? I’m really baffled by his motive.

MOO. I think he went in to scare and rape, or scare and kill, Madison. He discovered Kaylee in the bed with her, and realized he would have to kill them both. He somehow drops the sheath in his frenzy and doesn't notice it's gone (until after he leaves the premises). On the way down the stairs and out, he encounters Xana. She runs into her room (maybe she sees the knife in his hand) and Ethan is also there. The killer is in a super-charged state, so he commits two more frenzy kills and then exits. He's too pumped/excited/frightened to notice Dylan, and out he goes.

 

[Sundog]

Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger had 'normal conversation' with neighbor: 'You heard about these murders?'

Fox Nation host Nancy Grace spoke with Bryan Kohberger's neighbor about the conversation, where the suspect suggested an early theory that it was a "crime of passion."

www.foxnews.com

Tonight's article on Fox includes quotes from an interview Nancy Grace did with the neighbor. Apparently, when Dad helped BK move in, he asked the neighbor to be friends with his son. NG compared it to setting up a play date. NG also said the neighbor's wife had a bad feeling BK and did not want him around.

So now we know that BK's father helped him move in. Wonder if they drove across the country together and then BK's father flew back to PA.

 

[whiterhino]

So yes, they have his phone, IMO. And his phone carrier has given over all records, as has Google and any other service he used to search or plot this crime (DuckDuckGo is not above a subpoena). It's odd to me that he apparently had no clue how many ways he could be tracked (not paying attention in class? too involved in what he himself would say next?)

RSBBM to say T H I S . It's bizarre! If BK had left the sheath and the phone at home we probably wouldn't be here. We'd be in another thread instead lol.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I definately think something like that is possible.

Taking the kind of knife he did makes me think he intended harm. JMO

 

[Helechawagirl]

RSBBM to say T H I S . It's bizarre! If BK had left the sheath and the phone at home we probably wouldn't be here. We'd be in another thread instead lol.

Maybe he’s more interested in the psychology of murder rather than the execution of it. JMO ‍

 

[10ofRods]

I don't have a link, so everyone should feel free to disregard this: I watched a documentary recently that claimed that using chloroform in a struggle and unlike in the movies, one is as apt to knock one's self out as one's target.

Yep. And buying it leads a clear trace. Very difficult to obtain with a fake name, private address and fake credit card.

IMO.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I'm sure anything is possible but I would be more inclined to think he was running through his mental preparations/plan, working up the courage to execute his plan or waiting for lights to be turned off as a signal that his intended victim(s) were asleep.

Or perhaps he saw the door dash delivery and had to wait for them to leave? Just a thought.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I can't imagine a scenario where someone not intending to murder anyone takes a knife with a 7-inch blade into a house while everyone is sleeping. IMO, once he crossed the threshold of that house, he exited planning territory entirely and entered the committing a felony territory. JMOO

Wonder if took some kind of drugs?

 

[155etta]

Reminds me of British comedy the IT crowd "have you tried turning it off and on again?"

Best. Show. Ever.