Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #162

[TL4S]

To my understanding, the statements regarding the possible involvement of others were made after RA's arrest, and have not been updated nor withdrawn. (jmu - just my understanding)

It's my understanding, as well. Because there has been a gag order in place, we really have no idea where LE or the prosecutor stand in their beliefs on any matter of the case. Maybe LE is still investigating others, maybe not. Imo, it's not safe to assume anything here.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

As Cox has now stated he doesn't believe there's any connection to RA in the Delphi murders (and Delphi hasn't said anything in that regard), please move on from discussion of the Stephenson case in this discussion.

Thanks !!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just so you can read it yourself.

 

[Wondergirl]

The statements regarding tentacles and the possibility of involvement of others were stated October/November of last year. It’s now March 2023, as no charges against anyone else have been laid we can’t assume statements made in the past are still applicable today. JMO

Just pointing out the obvious here - no charges that we know of.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Prosecutor McLeland at 2 hearings argued that the affidavit should be sealed, first
(Oct 28,2022) and then that it should remain sealed (Nov 22, 2022). His oral arguments included that the release of the affidavit would “create serious and imminent danger to the public interest” and possibly damage an “ongoing murder investigation” and before the 2nd hearing, that he had "good reason to believe that Richard Allen is not the only actor in this heinous crime." The prosecutor gave no input from LE at the 2nd hearing, and in fact, Doug Carter had already come out in favor of the release of the affidavit and said it wouldn't harm the investigation.
So what has happened since the release, where's the damage to the investigation?

Carroll County prepares for hearing into Delphi murders case

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Carroll County officials are meeting this week to determine how to handle the anticipated rush of media and onlookers who will throng to the county courthouse in downtown Del…

fox59.com

Carroll County sheriff requests Delphi murder suspect be transferred for safety

Carroll County sheriff on Thursday filed a motion requesting that Allen, 50, be transferred from the county jail to a state prison "for safekeeping."

autos.yahoo.com

The info may not have related to Allen or his arrest, however, the prosecution and other LE have made plenty of statements to indicate there are likely others involved in these murders.

Moo
I disagree, I'm not finding any LE statement saying that it is "likely" others are involved after the arrest of RA.

From "we don't rule it out" to "we are still investigating until the case is over" is not equivalent to
it is 'likely' others are involved.
200 tips came in immediately after RA's arrest, I suspect most of them named other men, and following up on those tips doesn't mean they think they were involved.

The prosecution has made statements, and one was contradicted by DC. To me, his claims were solely for the purpose of delaying the release of the affidavit, it was not a valid argument and the judge ruled against him (in the 2nd motion). I don't doubt that the defense could find a way to use this to discredit the prosecutor if it ever went to trial.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Since there were no recordings of the 11/22/22 hearing, it is difficult to be sure of exactly what McCleland said. We have to rely on media quotes. Two reputable sources quoted him as saying “good reason to believe.”

“This is still a very ongoing investigation,” he noted. “… We have a good reason to believe that Richard Allen is not the only one involved in this. … The public has an absolute right to information, but at what cost?”

Judge to decide whether Delphi records will remain sealed

DELPHI — Clad in a yellow jumpsuit, shackles and a bulletproof vest, 50-year-old Richard Allen of Delphi, accused of murder in the deaths of Abby Williams, 13, and Libby German,

www.kokomotribune.com

McLeland said during Tuesday’s hearing that authorities “have a good reason to believe” Allen is not the only person connected to the killings. He said that if the affidavit were to be released without redactions, witnesses could be harassed.

Judge weighs whether to unseal records in teens' killings

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana judge said Tuesday that she will decide soon whether to unseal court records that led to a man’s arrest in the 2017 killings of two teenage girls, while a prosecutor urged the court to keep the documents sealed because others could be involved in the case.

apnews.com

 

[Gemmie]

“This is still a very ongoing investigation,” he noted. “… We have a good reason to believe that Richard Allen is not the only one involved in this. … The public has an absolute right to information, but at what cost?”

Judge to decide whether Delphi records will remain sealed

DELPHI — Clad in a yellow jumpsuit, shackles and a bulletproof vest, 50-year-old Richard Allen of Delphi, accused of murder in the deaths of Abby Williams, 13, and Libby German,

www.kokomotribune.com

Snipped for focus.

Sounds like "tentacles" and "very complex" to me.

“This case is unlikely any that I’ve seen in an almost 40-year career,” Superintendent Carter tells WIBC’s Hammer & Nigel, “there are so many different tentacles to this. Its very complex.”

A "Complex" Case - ISP Superintendent Doug Carter Talks Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, "Police Sources" & What You Should Be Allowed to Know

DELPHI, Ind. -- Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, public documents and "police sources" - Superintendent Doug Carter with Indiana State Police covered it all when discussing the 2017 Delphi murders investigation Tuesday.

wibc.com

 

[MistyWaters]

Curiously there’s no mention of McLeland referring to other involvement in the Lafayette news report, nor did he object when the PCA was eventually unsealed.

Oct. 28 motion asked Delphi documents sealed to protect public's interest

Carroll County prosecutor reasoned on Oct. 28 that sealing the details about the murder case against Richard Allen protected the public's interest.

www.jconline.com

“……..Special Judge Frances Gull ordered the document unsealed on Feb. 17 after McLeland did not object to it being published……

……..McLeland argued in the Oct. 28 request that the public interest caused by making the probable cause affidavit and charging information public will create such a public stir it will harm the prosecution's case….”

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

“This is still a very ongoing investigation,” he noted. “… We have a good reason to believe that Richard Allen is not the only one involved in this.

This statement was made after Doug Carter had already said the affidavit should be released and it would not harm the investigation.

This was for the Nov 22, 2022 hearing in which the prosecutor argued it would hurt the ongoing investigation for the affidavit to be released. How could the prosecutor claim it would hurt the investigation due to it being ongoing when DC said it would not?

Curiously there’s no mention of McLeland referring to other involvement in the Lafayette news report, nor did he object when the PCA was eventually unsealed.

This is not true. McLeLand argued against releasing the affidavit in Oct 2022 AND Nov 22, 2022. The judge ruled denied his motion in Nov. He could not object when he released it, he had no choice.

“……..Special Judge Frances Gull ordered the document unsealed on Feb. 17 after McLeland did not object to it being published……

He did not object to the redacted affidavit being published AFTER the Nov 22 hearing.

Again, there are no statements from LE saying that it is likely that others are involved or that imply that are actively investigating a specific person. Only the statement from the prosecutor in attempts to delay the release of the affidavit. MOO

Delphi documents: Prosecutor moves to block public release of arrest details

Defense Attorney Bradley Rozzi argued that the PC he’s read offers no proof that his client killed the girls or investigators had their eyes on any additional suspects and that no one has indicated…

fox59.com

 

[TL4S]

In Nov, McL told the judge that they have "good reason to believe" RA was not the only actor involved. He gave two affidavits to the judge in regards to the sensitive nature of the investigation, one from JH of the ISP, and another from an investigator from the prosecutor's office. We don't know what was in those affidavits, and with a gag order in place, there's been nothing further about the investigation. Certainly nobody here on WS can speak knowingly to where the investigation stands, or if it's been damaged. None of us have that kind of information.

I can't fault anyone who insists there could still be others involved, and I can't fault anyone who insists there is not. I lean to one side, of course, but frankly, I have no idea, and the arguments laid out by both sides here are not at all convincing enough to sway me either way. What I am convinced of is that there is much more in this case that we do not know, than that we do. Jmo.

 

[sandy_80]

we have a good reason to believe ( the other actors ) was just a ploy used to keep the docs sealed..eventually they can tell you ( we cant be sure anyway
to say there are other actors..means ..this isn't the crime we think it is
so what kind of crime it is ? what is exactly this other party role or justification of being there ?
why no one saw them ?
why they didnt flip on this RA or he flipped on them ?
how many crimes of this kind actually has multiple actors !

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

In Nov, McL told the judge that they have "good reason to believe" RA was not the only actor involved. He gave two affidavits to the judge in regards to the sensitive nature of the investigation, one from JH of the ISP, and another from an investigator from the prosecutor's office. We don't know what was in those affidavits, and with a gag order in place, there's been nothing further about the investigation. Certainly nobody here on WS can speak knowingly to where the investigation stands, door if it's been damaged. None of us have that kind of information.

I can't fault anyone who insists there could still be others involved, and I can't fault anyone who insists there is not. I lean to one side, of course, but frankly, I have no idea, and the arguments laid out by both sides here are not at all convincing enough to sway me either way. What I am convinced of is that there is much more in this case that we do not know, than that we do. Jmo.

My point wasn't to convince anyone of anything, I responded to the below post that I found inaccurate. Since RA's arrest, LE has not made any statements that amount to saying "it is likely that others are involved. Only the prosecutor has and it seemed to me, he made claims that were contradicted by Doug Carter himself. If LE has made statements, as implied in the post, since the arrest of RA, I haven't seen them. MOO

The info may not have related to Allen or his arrest, however, the prosecution and other LE have made plenty of statements to indicate there are likely others involved in these murders.

Edit to add Again, MOO, calling a case complicated, complex, with tentacles, many layers, etc etc does not equal "it is likely others are involved".

 

[steeltowngirl]

This statement was made after Doug Carter had already said the affidavit should be released and it would not harm the investigation.

This was for the Nov 22, 2022 hearing in which the prosecutor argued it would hurt the ongoing investigation for the affidavit to be released. How could the prosecutor claim it would hurt the investigation due to it being ongoing when DC said it would not?

Delphi documents: Prosecutor moves to block public release of arrest details

Defense Attorney Bradley Rozzi argued that the PC he’s read offers no proof that his client killed the girls or investigators had their eyes on any additional suspects and that no one has indicated…

fox59.com

Per the article, McLeland didn’t specifically say on 11/22/22 that it would harm the investigation. He was concerned about witness harassment.

McLeland said during Tuesday’s hearing that authorities “have a good reason to believe” Allen is not the only person connected to the killings. He said that if the affidavit were to be released without redactions, witnesses could be harassed.

Judge weighs whether to unseal records in teens' killings

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana judge said Tuesday that she will decide soon whether to unseal court records that led to a man’s arrest in the 2017 killings of two teenage girls, while a prosecutor urged the court to keep the documents sealed because others could be involved in the case.

apnews.com

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Per the article, McLeland didn’t specifically say on 11/22/22 that it would harm the investigation. He was concerned about witness harassment.

• That the public interest will be substantially served by prohibiting access for the reason that the release of the information might damage an ongoing murder investigation; or;

Motion reveals prosecutor’s reasons for sealing court documents in Delphi murder case

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – We now have some additional insight into the reasons Carroll County’s prosecutor asked a judge to seal records in the Delphi murder case. Among other things, Carroll County P…

fox59.com

 

[sandy_80]

Per the article, McLeland didn’t specifically say on 11/22/22 that it would harm the investigation. He was concerned about witness harassment.

McLeland said during Tuesday’s hearing that authorities “have a good reason to believe” Allen is not the only person connected to the killings. He said that if the affidavit were to be released without redactions, witnesses could be harassed.

Judge weighs whether to unseal records in teens' killings

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana judge said Tuesday that she will decide soon whether to unseal court records that led to a man’s arrest in the 2017 killings of two teenage girls, while a prosecutor urged the court to keep the documents sealed because others could be involved in the case.

apnews.com

he is very late to the party as one witness was already dragged and harrased and even publicly accused

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

To my understanding, the statements regarding the possible involvement of others were made after RA's arrest, and have not been updated nor withdrawn. (jmu - just my understanding)

The statements made by the prosecutor have been posted a number of times. No one is disputing that or claiming he has withdrawn them etc, in my opinion. So far, I haven't seen equivalent statements made by LE.

 

[TL4S]

we have a good reason to believe ( the other actors ) was just a ploy used to keep the docs sealed..eventually they can tell you ( we cant be sure anyway
to say there are other actors..means ..this isn't the crime we think it is
so what kind of crime it is ? what is exactly this other party role or justification of being there ?
why no one saw them ?
why they didnt flip on this RA or he flipped on them ?
how many crimes of this kind actually has multiple actors !

I guess what I have trouble with is seeing the real benefit for McL to deceptively argue keeping the docs sealed, to say what he said to the judge about "good reason to believe", and to hand over affidavits from JH and another investigator. What purpose was there to have a ploy for anything? I've read all the speculations about why he would do this (as due diligence, to delay things, to make them look better because they screwed up, etc, etc), but I'm not sure why it is so implausible that McL simply said what he meant. I understand that there is some question about the documents, the lack of forthright evidence to support his arguments, and the like, but McL also came prepared with a redacted version and seemed quite aware that the court would likely unseal the documents, anyway. To our eyes, there's nothing there to protect as fiercely as what McL attempted to protect. So why would he do that? To himself, his reputation, the case, the LE agencies who worked the case, the families, and the girls?

It's very likely that I am mistaken and just don't see what others here apparently see so clearly, but my personal perspective remains open to the possibility that we just don't know what's truly going on behind the scenes, or if McL's statements have merit.

 

[Emma Peel]

Officers of the Court can opine based on fact and interpretation of law upon the facts, but they can't materially misrepresent.

i.e McClelland can't materially misrepresent or deceive the Court as to there being "good reason to believe that Richard Allen is not the only actor in this heinous crime."

Material being any representation that influences a Court decision.

Considering that high bar, McClelland would be really pushing it by suggesting there's other actors, when the investigation has determined they have their man, and their only man, for said heinous crime.

MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

Also, the fact that the final outcome was a case gag order requested by prosecution ... suggests (for me) that the prosecution successfully made their case that case information - for now - needed to be protected and held confidential from the public.

MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

I guess what I have trouble with is seeing the real benefit for McL to deceptively argue keeping the docs sealed, to say what he said to the judge about "good reason to believe", and to hand over affidavits from JH and another investigator. What purpose was there to have a ploy for anything? I've read all the speculations about why he would do this (as due diligence, to delay things, to make them look better because they screwed up, etc, etc), but I'm not sure why it is so implausible that McL simply said what he meant. I understand that there is some question about the documents, the lack of forthright evidence to support his arguments, and the like, but McL also came prepared with a redacted version and seemed quite aware that the court would likely unseal the documents, anyway. To our eyes, there's nothing there to protect as fiercely as what McL attempted to protect. So why would he do that? To himself, his reputation, the case, the LE agencies who worked the case, the families, and the girls?

It's very likely that I am mistaken and just don't see what others here apparently see so clearly, but my personal perspective remains open to the possibility that we just don't know what's truly going on behind the scenes.

agree. (our posts just above crossed.)

IMO, it was represented in court as fact that this investigation continues its search for others involved in this crime and argued that said investigation must now be protected from the sharing of info with the public.

And that makes the timing of what KY LE went public with this past week seem ... orchestrated. There was plenty of public press on the Delphi case, and plenty time prior to Court's gag order for KY LE to provide same interview to press. Instead, KY LE does this after the gag order. Have to accept that we don't and can't understand what prompted that at the moment. We don't have to bury it. We don't have to dismiss it. We can just note that it happened and see what eventually unfolds. MOO