4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

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I am going through each of the warrants, motions to seal, and order to seal and finding different reasons and interesting points to consider imo.

For Door Dash the motion to seal states these reasons:
1. Interfere with enforcement proceedings;
2. Constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,
3. Disclose the identity of a confidential source; and
4. Disclose investigative techniques and procedures.


The Court order seals the warrant:
SEALED pursuant to Idaho Court Administrative Rule 32(g)(1) for the reasons stated in the said Motion

Did the Door Dash driver see something? or did someone else at the time?


and subsequently this:
the court finds it necessary to seal in part and redact the record related to the search warrant because the documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person.

What could be highly intimate about Door Dash?

For BK's Snap Chat, the order to seal was based on
The court reviewed the records, considered the arguments presented, weighed the interests in privacy and public disclosure, and announced its findings of fact on the record. Therefore, pursuant to I.C.A.R. 32(i)(2)(A) and (E) and I.C. §74—124(1)(b), the court finds it necessary to seal in part and redactthe record related the search warrant for the following reasons:
(l) The documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person; and
(2) It is necessary to preserve the right to a fair trial.


whereas with K, X, E the order was based on
(1) The documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be
highly objectionable to a reasonable person;
(2) The documents contain facts or statements that might threaten the safety of or endanger the life or safety of individuals; and
(3) Disclosure would constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.

editing to add links
Jumping ahead & apologies if this has already been addressed, but can you please provide a link to BCK’s Snap warrant?

My eyes have been crossed (LOL) but I’ve read two Snap Inc warrants & neither name BCK.

TIA!
 
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BOA home office is in NC. Yes, incoming college students are immediately asked to begin building their credit by charging their purchases! They're bombarded with cc apps.

It makes no sense for all 4 of these college students to have an AmX credit card bc AmX charges an annual fee. None of them were making over minimum wages (+tips), were they?

These are the banks located in Moscow:
Banks in Moscow, ID

View attachment 408412
Click on image to enlarge
Good points!

With respect to BOA & just speculating, but while we don’t have a local BOA branch here, there are branches in the home towns of at least three of the victims. MOO, but I wouldn’t necessarily expect college kids to change banks when attending college 90 miles away. LOL - I did an informal survey of some college kids I know & they don’t go to the bank — they do everything online.

Again, just some speculation & MOO.
 
It's also possible that that the pathologists in Washington who did the autopsy were able to get chromatography or other anaysis of the actual metal in the knife wounds.

Most big knife manufacturers (Ka-Bar included) have proprietary metal mixes. These are known.

I am guessing the knife, more than the sheath, traces back to Blue Ridge. Using first radiological techniques and then some kind of chemical analysis.

IMO.
Why would there be metal traces in the wounds?
 
Why would there be metal traces in the wounds?
Locard's exchange principle - Wikipedia

TL;dr - when two things come in contact, traces of each will be left on the other.

A knife will carry away from stabbing or cutting a victim - blood, skin oils, DNA, fibres (fabric and/or hairs), and so on.

A knife will leave on or in a stabbing or cutting victim - minute particles of metal or ceramic (from the blade), tiny pieces of leather or wood or plastic (from handle and/or sheath), oil from the care of the knife, tool marks, DNA/blood from other victims or the owner from previous use, etc.
 
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Thanks!
I didn't know IT has its name :)
It's very very interesting, and it's one of the foundational principles of forensics. It's also why so much of forensics is about what we can't see. So much technology and technique has been developed because they KNOW these things are there and being transferred between victim and killer, between driver and vehicle, between people and objects and the environment they're in, but they had to develop the science to PROVE it. So, we have DNA testing now that can be performed fast, on tiny samples, on degraded samples, on contaminated samples. We have GCMassSpec that can break down exactly what a substance is. We have luminol and Bluestar and Amido black that can show us the invisible traces of blood and other proteins. We have fingerprint powder and cyanoacrylate fuming with gold and ninhydrin that can make invisible fingerprints visible.

Locard may have been dead for over fifty years, but his principle shaped the whole development of investigation, forensics, and criminal investigation. And crime itself has evolved based on the science developed to combat it. The world would be very different without him.

MOO
 
Ten months of business records does seem like a lot. I wonder what other areas were investigated back that far and that broadly?

@10ofRods-- I'm interested that you feel many businesses would release data about business practices including information about employees (and customers) without a warrant. I would have thought most businesses wouldn't. Have we seen other cases where businesses volunteered to cough up that much stuff? I know business owners want to see crimes solved like we all do but still, I thought most preferred to see warrants these days.
JMO

The owner of Mad Greek did this (says no such customer came in; if there is any option for her to say there WAS a sighting of BK, by her own rubric, she would have to say so - or do people only say what they want to say to the press?)

Mad Greek definitely confirmed that MM and XK worked there. I suppose some people might say it doesn't matter, as they are deceased, but I don't see that rule written down anywhere - it's just common courtesy to respect the deceased.

But more importantly, business owners (say on TripAdvisor or Yelp) constantly chime in to confirm that a certain person does work at their establishment, that they are a great employees, etc, etc. Sometimes with more information that that.

This is freedom of speech. There's absolutely no law that I know of that says a workplace can't mention that you work there. Where I work and at every school in the US that I know of, the names of staff (often right down to the janitors and security officers) are all publicly displayed. My entire work schedule is online, as is true for millions of teachers (information at most colleges also includes what rooms people are in for most of the day - same at many Pre-K-12 districts).

The customers are different, although in the school system, yep, we do confirm whether a particular person has attended, it's considered non-privileged info (those students are our "customers"). Private businesses could follow that model if they wished - or they can respect customer privacy. I assume that in the DoorDash case, the DoorDash driver was likely an initial suspect. Why wouldn't he be? So was that Uber driver. So was that guy at the food truck (LE has said so, IMO). Some of these people were quickly ruled out, others were not.

For all we know, DoorDash said, "Hey yeah, our drivers want to help you, they might know something, what can we do for you?" And then, LE said, "That's great - but we'll get a warrant to cover our butts in court."

When a businessman was murried on his walk from his business to the bank, near me, many of the bank employees went public with appeals to help find the killers and the bank's corporate office said all employees would voluntarily speak to LE if LE wanted. Same thing happened with the other businesses in the area. Why would there be a reason why a business could not cooperate in a murder investigation?

Naturally, a business could also choose to be tight-lipped but personally, I like the small town cooperation and communication and I am constantly surprised that so many people think "no one should take to the police, ever" is becoming a rubric. We can all talk to police, if we wish. If we are ourselves under investigation, lawyers will tell you not to, but you still can. There's no law against it. And from my perspective, if I'm innocent and can help solve a crime, yep, I'm going to let LE have my video recordings back as far as they go (and I'd do it without a warrant but would understand why LE would get one anyway)

Just my thoughts and opinions. I am entitled to my more community oriented view and IME, many search warrants go to businesses/entities that were going to cooperate anyway. In a case that's still unsolved that I worked on, an electrical company employee was murdered when he went to do something on a house that was being renovated in an isolated place. PGE gave tons of employee information to LE voluntarily. LE found none of it helpful and did not get a warrant to try for more.

Where I live, community complaints against LE (or Fire or EMT) are all public and need no warrant. Disciplinary actions against doctors and nurses are also public. Again, DoorDash did not *have* to cooperate but all I'm saying is that it is possible DoorDash said, "Heck yeah, go through these records and see if any of our drivers noticed a white Elantra."

Why not? What prohibits that action? On what basis could an employee complain or sue? I'm pretty sure that DoorDash would have a contract with each driver that's *very* detailed, but if all that's needed was work schedules - how is that in any way privileged?

IMO.
 
It's very very interesting, and it's one of the foundational principles of forensics. It's also why so much of forensics is about what we can't see. So much technology and technique has been developed because they KNOW these things are there and being transferred between victim and killer, between driver and vehicle, between people and objects and the environment they're in, but they had to develop the science to PROVE it. So, we have DNA testing now that can be performed fast, on tiny samples, on degraded samples, on contaminated samples. We have GCMassSpec that can break down exactly what a substance is. We have luminol and Bluestar and Amido black that can show us the invisible traces of blood and other proteins. We have fingerprint powder and cyanoacrylate fuming with gold and ninhydrin that can make invisible fingerprints visible.

Locard may have been dead for over fifty years, but his principle shaped the whole development of investigation, forensics, and criminal investigation. And crime itself has evolved based on the science developed to combat it. The world would be very different without him.

MOO

I'm going to add one more technique that is relevant to yesterday's and today's discussion of the knife.

University of Washington has one of our nation's best forensic radiology departments. They can locate incredibly small bits of foreign materials (knife particles) inside wounds. I don't know if it was used in this case. It could still be used on two of the bodies, but that would be traumatic for the families, so if they can find a darned receipt for the knife (sounds like they might have), that's great.

But it's also possible that they did forensic radiology (CT; MRI; SPECT) on the bodies. If they located particles (a few molecules) of an unknown metal inside a knife wound, they can excise that tissue and sent it for chemical analysis. Most major knife makers have proprietary formulas (mostly to be able to find and prohibit fakes), But if it was a Ka-Bar knife, those particles would have identified it as such.

There are also new methods of estimating time of death via molecular analysis of cells in the body - way better than any previous technique (so thermometers and so forth are really not necessary and can actually confuse things). Stages of rigor are rough estimates; the molecular contents of decomposition, however, come in known stages and those molecules have properties that we might call "decay rates." This has all become possible very recently, long after I was ever working in a lab or studying autopsies/forensics.

IMPO.
 
Locard's exchange principle - Wikipedia

TL;dr - when two things come in contact, traces of each will be left on the other.

A knife will carry away from stabbing or cutting a victim - blood, skin oils, DNA, fibres (fabric and/or hairs), and so on.

A knife will leave on or in a stabbing or cutting victim - minute particles of metal or ceramic (from the blade), tiny pieces of leather or wood or plastic (from handle and/or sheath), oil from the care of the knife, tool marks, DNA/blood from other victims or the owner from previous use, etc.
I am not seeing this in the link, could you point it out?

A knife will leave on or in a stabbing or cutting victim - minute particles of metal or ceramic (from the blade)

I can't find any good sources so far that verify that a steel blade can leave steel particles in a wound. I am looking for proof, I have never heard of this, steel in perfect condition shouldn't leave behind any particles.
 
I am not seeing this in the link, could you point it out?

A knife will leave on or in a stabbing or cutting victim - minute particles of metal or ceramic (from the blade)

I can't find any good sources so far that verify that a steel blade can leave steel particles in a wound. I am looking for proof, I have never heard of this, steel in perfect condition shouldn't leave behind any particles.
Look above! @10ofRods has answered this better than I ever could. I knew it was possible, but I'm more au fait with other areas of forensics, and even those, at an enthusiastic amateur level. It just seems like magic to me, and I couldn't explain it further than, 'It's a thing!' :D

Listen to @10ofRods , they have actual degrees and stuff. :D
 
I'm going to add one more technique that is relevant to yesterday's and today's discussion of the knife.

University of Washington has one of our nation's best forensic radiology departments. They can locate incredibly small bits of foreign materials (knife particles) inside wounds. I don't know if it was used in this case. It could still be used on two of the bodies, but that would be traumatic for the families, so if they can find a darned receipt for the knife (sounds like they might have), that's great.

But it's also possible that they did forensic radiology (CT; MRI; SPECT) on the bodies. If they located particles (a few molecules) of an unknown metal inside a knife wound, they can excise that tissue and sent it for chemical analysis. Most major knife makers have proprietary formulas (mostly to be able to find and prohibit fakes), But if it was a Ka-Bar knife, those particles would have identified it as such.

There are also new methods of estimating time of death via molecular analysis of cells in the body - way better than any previous technique (so thermometers and so forth are really not necessary and can actually confuse things). Stages of rigor are rough estimates; the molecular contents of decomposition, however, come in known stages and those molecules have properties that we might call "decay rates." This has all become possible very recently, long after I was ever working in a lab or studying autopsies/forensics.

IMPO.
Do you have specific links to prove that a steel knife will leave steel particles in a wound. Steel in perfect condition shouldn't be leaving behind steel particles.
 
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Look above! @10ofRods has answered this better than I ever could. I knew it was possible, but I'm more au fait with other areas of forensics, and even those, at an enthusiastic amateur level. It just seems like magic to me, and I couldn't explain it further than, 'It's a thing!' :D

Listen to @10ofRods , they have actual degrees and stuff. :D
I have 2 degrees but still would like links that show steel blades leave steel particles behind. Nothing is coming up in my searches, I could ask the forensic department of my local big 10 university. They are very helpful.
 
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I wonder if DD driver explicitly saw BK/the killer and could provide a more concrete ID hence keeping it very under wraps?
Quite likely IMO, given the extremely tight timeframe - ie DD guy delivering order to Xana (which would be backed up by DD digital records - placement of order through to delivery,) and CCTV and ring camera images/footage of suspect/suspect's car. MOO
 
I am not seeing this in the link, could you point it out?

A knife will leave on or in a stabbing or cutting victim - minute particles of metal or ceramic (from the blade)

I can't find any good sources so far that verify that a steel blade can leave steel particles in a wound. I am looking for proof, I have never heard of this, steel in perfect condition shouldn't leave behind any particles.
I read this when the subject came up. My own question is how often is this technique used and is it admissible?

JMO

 
I am going through each of the warrants, motions to seal, and order to seal and finding different reasons and interesting points to consider imo.

For Door Dash the motion to seal states these reasons:
1. Interfere with enforcement proceedings;
2. Constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,
3. Disclose the identity of a confidential source; and
4. Disclose investigative techniques and procedures.


The Court order seals the warrant:
SEALED pursuant to Idaho Court Administrative Rule 32(g)(1) for the reasons stated in the said Motion

Did the Door Dash driver see something? or did someone else at the time?


and subsequently this:
the court finds it necessary to seal in part and redact the record related to the search warrant because the documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person.

What could be highly intimate about Door Dash?

For BK's Snap Chat, the order to seal was based on
The court reviewed the records, considered the arguments presented, weighed the interests in privacy and public disclosure, and announced its findings of fact on the record. Therefore, pursuant to I.C.A.R. 32(i)(2)(A) and (E) and I.C. §74—124(1)(b), the court finds it necessary to seal in part and redactthe record related the search warrant for the following reasons:
(l) The documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person; and
(2) It is necessary to preserve the right to a fair trial.


whereas with K, X, E the order was based on
(1) The documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be
highly objectionable to a reasonable person;
(2) The documents contain facts or statements that might threaten the safety of or endanger the life or safety of individuals; and
(3) Disclosure would constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.

editing to add links
Wow, very interesting points! I wonder if BK's snapchats had graphic statements or photos of one (or more) of the women in the house?

With regard to Door Dash, I would guess the confidential source would be the driver (I don't believe that person was ever publicly identified), and perhaps they are trying to protect that person from all of the interest in this case? I also am kind of wondering if the Door Dash driver could have seen or heard something totally ordinary, but just private, like E and X being intimate.

And perhaps K, X, and E's snapchats contain lots of photos of the two surviving roommates, and they are just trying to protect them from having even more of their photos out there.
 
Do you have specific links to prove that a steel knife will leave steel particles in a wound. Steel in perfect condition shouldn't be leaving behind steel particles.
I don't have a link, but but @CSIDreamer seems to have one to check out up there.

A stabbing is a violent act. Stabbing to the torso, hitting ribs, sternum, spine with the blade, it's going to dull the edge. Dulling and sharpening a knife is all about removing microscopic amounts of metal from the cutting edge. Heck, if a perpetrator sharpened a knife just before a crime, the particles from that sharpening might still be on the blade, adhering to traces of oil or in crevices around the handle.

A knife is hard, but Locard still applies. Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean those particles aren't there.

I have no link for this, so consider it my opinion only.
 
The owner of Mad Greek did this (says no such customer came in; if there is any option for her to say there WAS a sighting of BK, by her own rubric, she would have to say so - or do people only say what they want to say to the press?)

Mad Greek definitely confirmed that MM and XK worked there. I suppose some people might say it doesn't matter, as they are deceased, but I don't see that rule written down anywhere - it's just common courtesy to respect the deceased.

But more importantly, business owners (say on TripAdvisor or Yelp) constantly chime in to confirm that a certain person does work at their establishment, that they are a great employees, etc, etc. Sometimes with more information that that.

This is freedom of speech. There's absolutely no law that I know of that says a workplace can't mention that you work there. Where I work and at every school in the US that I know of, the names of staff (often right down to the janitors and security officers) are all publicly displayed. My entire work schedule is online, as is true for millions of teachers (information at most colleges also includes what rooms people are in for most of the day - same at many Pre-K-12 districts).

The customers are different, although in the school system, yep, we do confirm whether a particular person has attended, it's considered non-privileged info (those students are our "customers"). Private businesses could follow that model if they wished - or they can respect customer privacy. I assume that in the DoorDash case, the DoorDash driver was likely an initial suspect. Why wouldn't he be? So was that Uber driver. So was that guy at the food truck (LE has said so, IMO). Some of these people were quickly ruled out, others were not.

For all we know, DoorDash said, "Hey yeah, our drivers want to help you, they might know something, what can we do for you?" And then, LE said, "That's great - but we'll get a warrant to cover our butts in court."

When a businessman was murried on his walk from his business to the bank, near me, many of the bank employees went public with appeals to help find the killers and the bank's corporate office said all employees would voluntarily speak to LE if LE wanted. Same thing happened with the other businesses in the area. Why would there be a reason why a business could not cooperate in a murder investigation?

Naturally, a business could also choose to be tight-lipped but personally, I like the small town cooperation and communication and I am constantly surprised that so many people think "no one should take to the police, ever" is becoming a rubric. We can all talk to police, if we wish. If we are ourselves under investigation, lawyers will tell you not to, but you still can. There's no law against it. And from my perspective, if I'm innocent and can help solve a crime, yep, I'm going to let LE have my video recordings back as far as they go (and I'd do it without a warrant but would understand why LE would get one anyway)

Just my thoughts and opinions. I am entitled to my more community oriented view and IME, many search warrants go to businesses/entities that were going to cooperate anyway. In a case that's still unsolved that I worked on, an electrical company employee was murdered when he went to do something on a house that was being renovated in an isolated place. PGE gave tons of employee information to LE voluntarily. LE found none of it helpful and did not get a warrant to try for more.

Where I live, community complaints against LE (or Fire or EMT) are all public and need no warrant. Disciplinary actions against doctors and nurses are also public. Again, DoorDash did not *have* to cooperate but all I'm saying is that it is possible DoorDash said, "Heck yeah, go through these records and see if any of our drivers noticed a white Elantra."

Why not? What prohibits that action? On what basis could an employee complain or sue? I'm pretty sure that DoorDash would have a contract with each driver that's *very* detailed, but if all that's needed was work schedules - how is that in any way privileged?

IMO.
Thanks for the response.

I didn't mean that I thought businesses would require a warrant to release ANY info. But to me there's a huge difference between saying to the press "BK didn't eat at my restaurant" or even identifying two of the deceased students as employees and providing LE with "all information in your possession or control related to sales, deliveries, purchases, and/or transactions made to 1122 King Road, Moscow, Idaho 83 843 for time period of January 1, 2022 to present, to include: date and time of sales; date and time of deliveries; purchases and/or transactions; name and identification of the driver; full description of the vehicles used; any and all communications between drivers and the purchasers."

I would think providing the former kinds of info even to LE instead of the press wouldn't require a warrant while the latter definitely would. You obviously disagree and that's fine. Of course we are both entitled to our opinions.

You may be right that no employee can or will complain. But to me, that comes a bit too close to ideas like "innocent people should be happy to talk to the police and should have nothing to fear." In my experience, most businesses prefer not to take the chance of crossing a constitutional line and prefer to provide information when legally compelled vs as a helpful community member. The warrant seems broad but at least there was a warrant.
JMO
 
I don't have a link, but but @CSIDreamer seems to have one to check out up there.

A stabbing is a violent act. Stabbing to the torso, hitting ribs, sternum, spine with the blade, it's going to dull the edge. Dulling and sharpening a knife is all about removing microscopic amounts of metal from the cutting edge. Heck, if a perpetrator sharpened a knife just before a crime, the particles from that sharpening might still be on the blade, adhering to traces of oil or in crevices around the handle.

A knife is hard, but Locard still applies. Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean those particles aren't there.

I have no link for this, so consider it my opinion only.
Your quite helpful, thanks.

This is a pilot study on cadavers. It did show some iron, chromium and nickel which are elements found in steel.

These common trace elements would not be helpful in identifying a specific brand of knife, which is why the type of cut a victim sustains is what we hear about in court.
 
Your quite helpful, thanks.

This is a pilot study on cadavers. It did show some iron, chromium and nickel which are elements found in steel.

These common trace elements would not be helpful in identifying a specific brand of knife, which is why the type of cut a victim sustains is what we hear about in court.
And of course, occasionally, parts of weapons larger than a molecule DO break off and are retained by a victim's body.

"A dagger's not a diamond." From a CSI episode where just that happened. :D

And of course, if they have that, a knife tip, that IS incredibly useful. They can know what part of the shape of the knife was. They can determine the exact composition of the metals that make it up. And even if you don't find the knife, if you have, say, an Amazon or eBay transaction for a knife that matches the fragment you found in shape and composition, it's gold.

The perpetrator of this crime stabbed four people. Even if there is never a knife found, or a molecule of metal, they have a sheath, and I think it's impossible that they don't have bruising on some or all the victims showing the shape of the hilt. These were deep wounds on victims, at least one or two of them were prone when attacked. To be blunt, he didn't create shallow wounds. So with the sheath and the hilt and the moulds they will have made of the wounds at autopsy, they've got a darn good idea exactly what this knife looks like. I have high hopes they'll match neatly to a purchase he made before the crime.

If ten years down the road, though, they can do a quick test on a wound and get a complex breakdown of the metals in the object that made it, and that is usable in court, that will be so freaking cool.

MOO
 
I'm going to add one more technique that is relevant to yesterday's and today's discussion of the knife.

University of Washington has one of our nation's best forensic radiology departments. They can locate incredibly small bits of foreign materials (knife particles) inside wounds. I don't know if it was used in this case. It could still be used on two of the bodies, but that would be traumatic for the families, so if they can find a darned receipt for the knife (sounds like they might have), that's great.

But it's also possible that they did forensic radiology (CT; MRI; SPECT) on the bodies. If they located particles (a few molecules) of an unknown metal inside a knife wound, they can excise that tissue and sent it for chemical analysis. Most major knife makers have proprietary formulas (mostly to be able to find and prohibit fakes), But if it was a Ka-Bar knife, those particles would have identified it as such.

There are also new methods of estimating time of death via molecular analysis of cells in the body - way better than any previous technique (so thermometers and so forth are really not necessary and can actually confuse things). Stages of rigor are rough estimates; the molecular contents of decomposition, however, come in known stages and those molecules have properties that we might call "decay rates." This has all become possible very recently, long after I was ever working in a lab or studying autopsies/forensics.

IMPO.

I posted this quite some time ago:

Spokane County Unveils New State-of-the-Art ME Building

“The building also has a Lodox machine, which can rapidly do full-body X-ray scans. Aiken said she plans to scan every body, which could help identify human remains.”

There is a new ME, but I suspect she continued the practice of scanning all bodies. IMO
 
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