NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

Status
Not open for further replies.
That is truly amazing work.
I'm just so impressed by the managed parks for those who simply cannot bear being indoors.

Truly inspiring to know this great work is ongoing and successfully so in a world of ableism.
Thank you for sharing .

Made my day happier to know that somewhere on the globe they are being cared for like humans.

Makes me happy too. And while it is true that the park is now unused by regular citizens (and some nearby neighbors are pretty upset), the people living there have this big area of bushes up against a fence, where they sleep and store their stuff). There have been two incidences of violence (not mild either) by inhabitants of this park (those people are now in jail - in the mental health ward, awaiting trial). So we treat criminal offenses by the mentally ill as...criminal offenses. There's a 7/11 very near the park, and the unhoused beg for money or rummage through trash or people buy them food. For years. Several of us buy little food items for the unhoused people we've gotten to know over the past couple of years - they are a transient population and I always wonder what has happened to this guy or that guy (nearly all are male, but not all).

California basically passed a controversial law saying that people could not be arrested for sleeping on public land. In my town, there's one park entirely given over to the unhoused, but there are others with unhoused people living on them too (and the riverbeds and creekbeds as well; LE goes down when the river is getting higher and assists the residents to get to higher ground - we didn't lose anyone that we know in the big rains we had this year).

Oddly, we see very few of these unhoused people roaming around in our nearby residential neighborhoods. There are other groups of unhoused people besides the mentally ill. I should mention that I believe most of the residents at this park near my house are schizophrenic (mannerisms; rantings; walking sign; mutism, etc) Schizophreniform at least.

The veterans are being well cared for here; the VA strongly recognizes the risk that new inductees may well develop schizophrenia in the first six months to one year of service, as military training is precisely the kind of stress that typical causes the latent genes to express; some people have genes that make it almost impossible to avoid the illness, but many had their illnesses triggered by a family tragedy (like Neely) or military service or first year of college or childbirth and sometimes, lower level stressors like leaving home and getting in a relationship/interacting intensely with roommates). The VA has long recognized that it needs care facilities (and does have many longterm care facilities throughout the US).


IMO
 
I hope the post @10ofRods just wrote helps all of us understand Mr Neely walking away from help. Mr Neely was mentally ill. He was schizophrenic…a terrible disease. Walking away from the treatment program and rejecting other help offered is something they do *because* they are mentally ill.

JMO
No problem with your comment. I know that to be a fact as I have a mentally ill family member. I have, over the years, met with a county crisis team or two and some excellent Emt's. The criteria for holding people is they must threaten themselves or others with harm, otherwise they can be drooling at the mouth and waving a gun around, talking crazy, yelling and shouting, telling crazy stories, you may be able to get them arrested but not committed. Actually I once had a EMT say..."did you hear that (?)" , with a wink. Thanks goodness.

People don't need someone to be drooling or holding a gun to be fearful. People had been rightfully fearful of Jordan for years. Throwing his jacket forcefully down and yelling he'd take a bullet and you are the one standing next to this man in a crowded train car? As an older woman, without even knowing his recent violent history, I'd be grateful to see a Mr. Penny.

There has not been one thing in Mr. Penny's history to suggest he has a bias. Mr. Penny was judged before people even knew his name. Based on only one thing, sadly the elephant in the room can't be addressed according to TOS.

It is beyond sad to know Mr. Neely's was so sick, and struggled daily. But to now blame Mr. Penny for Mr. Neely's tragic life is not justice it's revenge and the need for victimization, further divide society, perhaps sue the city. IMO.
 
No problem with your comment. I know that to be a fact as I have a mentally ill family member. I have, over the years, met with a county crisis team or two and some excellent Emt's. The criteria for holding people is they must threaten themselves or others with harm, otherwise they can be drooling at the mouth and waving a gun around, talking crazy, yelling and shouting, telling crazy stories, you may be able to get them arrested but not committed. Actually I once had a EMT say..."did you hear that (?)" , with a wink. Thanks goodness.

People don't need someone to be drooling or holding a gun to be fearful. People had been rightfully fearful of Jordan for years. Throwing his jacket forcefully down and yelling he'd take a bullet and you are the one standing next to this man in a crowded train car? As an older woman, without even knowing his recent violent history, I'd be grateful to see a Mr. Penny.

There has not been one thing in Mr. Penny's history to suggest he has a bias. Mr. Penny was judged before people even knew his name. Based on only one thing, sadly the elephant in the room can't be addressed according to TOS.

It is beyond sad to know Mr. Neely's was so sick, and struggled daily. But to now blame Mr. Penny for Mr. Neely's tragic life is not justice it's revenge and the need for victimization, further divide society, perhaps sue the city. IMO.

The standard for a hold varies from place to place, without question. As I posted, if a person is breaking the law (regardless of mental status or illness), such as disturbing the peace or brandishing a weapon, they get a trip to the County Jail, which has an entire psych floor (for evaluation - and yes, brandishing a weapon is considered being dangerous to others; still getting past the initial 3 day hold takes a judge to sign off - which judges will do if it's a second time in the unit). 14 days is pretty easily gotten and many are stabilized within that period. Getting a temporary conservatorship is harder, but if the person has a rap sheet and convictions, and a diagnosis from the jail psychiatrist (from past offenses), it's entirely doable and done all the time here. 30 days is enough for alcohol detox, drug detox, etc. And to search for family members who will take charge of a more lengthy conservatorship (which is much more rare).

We have a longterm jail for those who are convicted of a crime during all this. I don't think a person can plead insanity to a misdemeanor in California, at any rate, I've never seen that plea entered. So they go on to the larger jail, which again, as a psych ward (but most are fine in the general population after their 30 days - if they get the right meds).

No one should be blamed for Neely's tragic life. I believe that Penny was doing what he thought was proper at the time. However, since he had training, it seems clear he knew that his actions could result in death. I do not know what a jury will think about whether he had time to form intent. I can see that NYers are intensely divided on this case.

I don't think Penny spent a lot of time debating his actions. One witness (JV) says that the hold started about 30 seconds before the next stop after Neely got on and that the total time between stops was about 2 minutes (so after 1:30 seconds of observation - NY has law and jury instructions involving what it means to be "menacing" that has to be applied).

I also don't think Penny was directly threatened by Neely and so I hope that at trial, people who were so threatened come forward on Mr. Penny's behalf, otherwise his actions are surely some shade of illegal. Even if convicted, the Judge has discretion in NY about sentencing. He could end up with a suspended prison sentence. There are several defenses Penny can use.

IMO.
 
No problem with your comment. I know that to be a fact as I have a mentally ill family member. I have, over the years, met with a county crisis team or two and some excellent Emt's. The criteria for holding people is they must threaten themselves or others with harm, otherwise they can be drooling at the mouth and waving a gun around, talking crazy, yelling and shouting, telling crazy stories, you may be able to get them arrested but not committed. Actually I once had a EMT say..."did you hear that (?)" , with a wink. Thanks goodness.

People don't need someone to be drooling or holding a gun to be fearful. People had been rightfully fearful of Jordan for years. Throwing his jacket forcefully down and yelling he'd take a bullet and you are the one standing next to this man in a crowded train car? As an older woman, without even knowing his recent violent history, I'd be grateful to see a Mr. Penny.

There has not been one thing in Mr. Penny's history to suggest he has a bias. Mr. Penny was judged before people even knew his name. Based on only one thing, sadly the elephant in the room can't be addressed according to TOS.

It is beyond sad to know Mr. Neely's was so sick, and struggled daily. But to now blame Mr. Penny for Mr. Neely's tragic life is not justice it's revenge and the need for victimization, further divide society, perhaps sue the city. IMO.
The elephant in the room is that a strong man choked a vulnerable man to death in broad daylight and in full view of everyone that cared to witness it and that the killing was filmed.
 
The elephant in the room is that a strong man choked a vulnerable man to death in broad daylight and in full view of everyone that cared to witness it and that the killing was filmed.
Nah, that is NOT the elephant but as to this post “ a man choked a man to death in broad daylight and in full view of everyone that cared to witness it and that the killing was filmed.”

Exactly, well said. Those elements were all highly visible, which speaks to the intent of Mr. Penny’s actions. Clearly to subdue and protect others, he was not going for a manslaughter rap, on film, in broad daylight, with witnesses to boot… to ruin his life and reputation. I feel comfortable in saying who would do that? This young man was just going about his day, what is out there to suggest malice? Vigilantes are known to be discreet?

So how many will ever step forward in the future?

Had this encounter happened in a dark alley with no witnesses, I would also be suspect until I learned more about Mr. Penny and Mr. Neely both.
 
Last edited:
Nah, that is NOT the elephant but as to this post “ a man choked a man to death in broad daylight and in full view of everyone that cared to witness it and that the killing was filmed.”

Exactly, well said. Those elements were all highly visible, which speaks to the intent of Mr. Penny’s actions. Clearly to subdue and protect others, he was not going for a manslaughter rap, on film, in broad daylight, with witnesses to boot… to ruin his life and reputation.

So how many will ever step forward in the future?

Had this encounter happened in a dark alley with no witnesses, I would also be suspect until I learned more about Mr. Penny and Mr. Neely both.
Should I have added
..and most people believe the strong man acted correctly..?

Murphy, we can only guess at his motives.
We can only guess at his history, his associations and his beliefs because there is simply no open source info available on Mr Penny.
Which is pretty unusual.

None of us can see what Mr Penny saw on the day he killed Jordan.
We can see what he did but we can't see his thoughts or motivations.

We know he is not sorry because he has said so.
We know he would do it again because he has said so.

We do not know it was an accident and many of us believe that to be highly unlikely because Mr Penny had received special training on the 'art' of choke and he had received training on not using it too and being a native of NY we can assume he was educated in
duty to retreat
duty to report
illegality of choke hold.
Nevertheless Mr penny choked Jordan Neely.

Entitlement much?

He had other options if he believed Mr penny needed to be immobilised, something yet to be decided.

And the reason Mr penny had more options than most is because Mr Penny received special training in de-escalation and non lethal immobilisation.

Maybe nobody needed to step forward at all?
Maybe that was all in Mr penny's mind.
and Mr penny shows no indication of either remorse or reflection so perhaps Mr Penny's mind was more damaged than the well documented damage of his victim?
 
I have studied homeless mentally ill since around 1985.

My first job in the field involved trying to find veterans with schizophrenia among the mentally ill homeless in Downtown LA. The research director had a grant to study their genes and their brains. First thing he said was that people suffering from schizophrenia and related unclassified psychoses are among the most likely to be homeless, constituting at least 3% of the downtown population, housed or unhoused. All of our research put the incidence of schizophrenia among the homeless in DTLA at 3-5%. As a result of this type of research, we've built suburban housing with mental health units for homeless veterans in California. Where I live, I can see improvement in services (as one of these centers is about half a mile from me - it's beautiful, houses almost entirely mentally ill veterans, including those with dementia). We recently opened a great outpatient treatment center (right next to the police station). We still lack enough beds for everyone, but we recognize that some schizophrenics absolutely won't accept living indoors. There's a local park where LE has decided to manage rather than evict - that too is near my house. So I see many improvements locally but I also fear for the fate of our big cities - where it's not going so well.

Anyway, the reasons so many are homeless and in big cities are two fold.

First, their families either cannot or will not take care of them. As their parents age, the parents can't follow them around and mediate their encounters with the world. Second, big cities provide anonymity and some services unavailable in smaller towns (where a jail cell may be the only place to hold a ranting, floridly psychotic person). One or both parents may be schizophrenic or with some symptoms, as well.

One of the symptoms of schizophrenia (esp. the "negative" schizophrenics) is avoidance of humans and a desire to walk.

Walking schizophrenics are everywhere, but rarely in small towns. Most small towns have 1-2 of this type per 10,000 population, but big cities have way more. Some small towns/families give bus tickets to the big cities. But in general these schizophrenics find their own way into larger areas, where homelessness outpaces resources AND where there are soup kitchens, showers, shelters, meal vouchers, homeless outreach workers, thrift shops, help with getting any source of disability payment, etc, etc. For whatever reason, they walk and walk. I've tracked some people as they wander 20-30 miles in a day or two.

So they end up in big urban centers. For example, Santa Monica has a free clinic (and has had since I started this work) and rapidly became a mecca for homeless from all over the nation (and sometimes, the world). DTLA has similar services. This is the second factor (the pull factor of services, treatment and ways of feeding oneself).

So the push factor (families and small towns rejecting or guiding mentally ill people toward bigger centers) and the pull factor (ability to live unhoused but with access to certain services), result in way more mental illness in bigger places. My own town isn't that big, but we have a large green belt, with year round water. It's basically river beds (two of them) and the unhoused people live (and die) there. In these situations, schizophrenic people meet each other, form communities, form romantic attachments and reproduce.

Schizophrenia is a genetic disorder.

These problems are chronic, as many as 3-5% of any population will suffer from psychosis at some point in their lives or have chronic psychosis. It is higher in big cities, due to the factors above.

It is lower in small towns where, basically, many are driven out or sent away or ignore (by their own families in many cases and the families are often suffering from the exhaustion of compassion and coping - and have other children as well).

Our societal decision in the 80's and 90's to get rid of long term care facilities was a terrible decision.

The non-veteran mentally ill population does not have such services. Indeed, most are incapable of locating services and need to be guided to them over and over. It's in the nature of their illness that they will leave and walk and eat very little and drink whatever liquids they find, etc. They seem to have a hard time living indoors. We don't know for sure, because most of this type of schizophrenic can comprehend human language, but rarely speak it properly (and when they do, it may or may not be intelligible; some of them will write but are effectively mute). I've known several schizophrenics who were "impersonators." One was a family of schizophrenics (mom and dad both schizophrenic; 12 children, all schizophrenic; 4 were psychics; 3 were Elvis impersonators; the rest lived off of those efforts). They truly believed they were psychic and could read minds. They had a little sign in the yard of their ramshackle house (this was in New Mexico), stating palm reading and psychic services. They got occasional gigs as Elvis impersonators.

Neely may have had a belief at times that he actually *was* Michael Jackson (as these Elvis impersonators actually believed that they were Elvis). It's a common symptom of schizophrenia. It's an extraordinarily painful illness, as well. High rates of suicide (and I believe Neely's anger and shouting was part of an overall desire to die - the "I'll take a bullet!" is a classic wish (to die, but in a vague way that they can't operationalize unless someone like police take them down for truly threatening behavior - which is rare; or someone like Penny is involved; trained LE and mental health emergency teams use other methods, naturally). Mental pain is terrible pain, leads to dual diagnosis (drug addiction).

At any rate, such people are indeed scary to many. Where I live, LE is trained to recognize and deal with schizophrenics, I'm proud to say. It's been a big part of my life's work to help provide the training (which is all done internally in the Sheriff's division, nowadays - the goal was to train enough LEO's that they could find great and more experienced teachers with each new generation of officers - and so it has come to pass). But my city is smallish (200,000) and the feeder towns from where the schizophrenics come are mostly close by (a region with about 1 million who are connected by public transport, which the schizophrenic population does use). In my personal life, I have known schizophrenic physicians, engineers, college professors. A good friend (schizophrenic; mother was schizophrenic) was one of the psychiatrists who worked alongside me in the research projects. She ended up devoting her life to the schizophrenic populations of the Pacific Northwest, half of whom came from other parts of the country. She gave me a lot of insights into schizophrenia and was expert in helping medication-refusing patients. She traveled from rural clinic to clinic up until the time she died. Had hundreds of patients. We have a deficit of psychiatrists in the US. The older group is dying off and it is not a popular first choice for newly minted MD's.

New York *is* trying but as one of the world's largest cities, boy, it must seem almost hopeless. There are at least 5 schizophrenics that are from my region who are now in NY (I talk to their parents from time to time). No one knows exactly how they got there (and those are just the parents who *know* where their mentally ill children are; a good friend had a tragic event when his schizophrenic son moved away while in remission; long story, but he ended up being killed by police in Sacramento).

I'm just riffing off your mention of the Big City problem. It is a huge problem. And since not everyone lives in a big city, not everyone cares or wants to divert tax dollars from, say, the federal budget to this problem. I'm not sure it's getting worse, it's been a problem for a long time, but it's possible that population growth in the mega-cities has brought the entire system to where we are now. Which is not a good place.

No one can handle schizophrenia merely by urging "personal responsibility" to the sufferer. It's a disease and it's global. Its causes are known, there are treatments, but it is a painful, difficult illness to treat, everywhere.

IMO.
Thank you for sharing all your valuable first hand knowledge and understanding of the people who struggle in these situations.
 
This young man was just going about his day, what is out there to suggest malice?

He’s been charged with recklessly causing Neely’s death, not maliciously causing it. One can be reckless in full view of people. One can be reckless but not set out to kill someone intentionally. Using a chokehold instead of another form of restraint was reckless. Not releasing it sooner when he was told he might be killing Neely was reckless. Stating these facts is not implying that Penny deliberately or maliciously intended to kill Neely.

JMO
 
He’s been charged with recklessly causing Neely’s death, not maliciously causing it. One can be reckless in full view of people. One can be reckless but not set out to kill someone intentionally. Using a chokehold instead of another form of restraint was reckless. Not releasing it sooner when he was told he might be killing Neely was reckless. Stating these facts is not implying that Penny deliberately or maliciously intended to kill Neely.

JMO
Thank you Lilybeth, that is a key point, regarding the reckless vs malicious. To your words.. Using a chokehold instead of another form of restraint was reckless. Who's to say? How many of us have any training as to how to handle a situation of this intensity with so many innocent people in such close proximity with absolutely no way for anyone to retreat,nowhere to go, no shelter to be taken. No room to be made to use a more favorable strategy.

Not releasing it sooner when he was told he might be killing Neely was reckless. That may have happened. Who's to say this person knew a thing about the situation as it unfolded? He may have already released his grip. He may have been taking cues from his two assistants. We don't know.
 
Thank you Lilybeth, that is a key point, regarding the reckless vs malicious. To your words.. Using a chokehold instead of another form of restraint was reckless. Who's to say? How many of us have any training as to how to handle a situation of this intensity with so many innocent people in such close proximity with absolutely no way for anyone to retreat,nowhere to go, no shelter to be taken. No room to be made to use a more favorable strategy.

Not releasing it sooner when he was told he might be killing Neely was reckless. That may have happened. Who's to say this person knew a thing about the situation as it unfolded? He may have already released his grip. He may have been taking cues from his two assistants. We don't know.
BBM. iirc, the ME's office made it clear there was other medical testing they needed to do before releasing the autopsy report. I think the only reason Penny kept the hold was because the group knew 911 had been called and they were waiting for police to arrive.

JMO
 
Thank you Lilybeth, that is a key point, regarding the reckless vs malicious. To your words.. Using a chokehold instead of another form of restraint was reckless. Who's to say? How many of us have any training as to how to handle a situation of this intensity with so many innocent people in such close proximity with absolutely no way for anyone to retreat,nowhere to go, no shelter to be taken. No room to be made to use a more favorable strategy.

Not releasing it sooner when he was told he might be killing Neely was reckless. That may have happened. Who's to say this person knew a thing about the situation as it unfolded? He may have already released his grip. He may have been taking cues from his two assistants. We don't know.

The reason I said the chokehold was reckless is that many police departments don’t allow it to be used anymore because it is so dangerous. That’s a fact that really isn’t in dispute. I believe the guy who said Neely was dying pointed to a fecal stain on his pants as an indication. One of the helpers said it was old, which it may have been. But regardless, when they did release him they just stood there just looking down at Neely not rendering aid. Reckless IMO. Unless, of course, they knew he was already dead. But why did Penny try to assist LE with CPR? Why not start it right away? I guess we’ll find out eventually.

JMO
 
Should I have added
..and most people believe the strong man acted correctly..?

Murphy, we can only guess at his motives.
We can only guess at his history, his associations and his beliefs because there is simply no open source info available on Mr Penny.
Which is pretty unusual.

None of us can see what Mr Penny saw on the day he killed Jordan.
We can see what he did but we can't see his thoughts or motivations.

We know he is not sorry because he has said so.
We know he would do it again because he has said so.

We do not know it was an accident and many of us believe that to be highly unlikely because Mr Penny had received special training on the 'art' of choke and he had received training on not using it too and being a native of NY we can assume he was educated in
duty to retreat
duty to report
illegality of choke hold.
Nevertheless Mr penny choked Jordan Neely.

Entitlement much?

He had other options if he believed Mr penny needed to be immobilised, something yet to be decided.

And the reason Mr penny had more options than most is because Mr Penny received special training in de-escalation and non lethal immobilisation.

Maybe nobody needed to step forward at all?
Maybe that was all in Mr penny's mind.
and Mr penny shows no indication of either remorse or reflection so perhaps Mr Penny's mind was more damaged than the well documented damage of his victim?
... or maybe not. . . to all of the above.

JMO.


punctuation edit
 
Should I have added
..and most people believe the strong man acted correctly..?

Murphy, we can only guess at his motives.
We can only guess at his history, his associations and his beliefs because there is simply no open source info available on Mr Penny.
Which is pretty unusual.

None of us can see what Mr Penny saw on the day he killed Jordan.
We can see what he did but we can't see his thoughts or motivations.

We know he is not sorry because he has said so.
We know he would do it again because he has said so.

We do not know it was an accident and many of us believe that to be highly unlikely because Mr Penny had received special training on the 'art' of choke and he had received training on not using it too and being a native of NY we can assume he was educated in
duty to retreat
duty to report
illegality of choke hold.
Nevertheless Mr penny choked Jordan Neely.

Entitlement much?

He had other options if he believed Mr penny needed to be immobilised, something yet to be decided.

And the reason Mr penny had more options than most is because Mr Penny received special training in de-escalation and non lethal immobilisation.

Maybe nobody needed to step forward at all?
Maybe that was all in Mr penny's mind.
and Mr penny shows no indication of either remorse or reflection so perhaps Mr Penny's mind was more damaged than the well documented damage of his victim?

I don't know that it's "most people" who agree with this killing. I really think NYers (who matter in this) are very divided.

What we do see is a weak will on the part of the passengers (and the 5 known people who stayed behind as everyone else exited) to restrain or interfere with Penny. It's possible people were equally afraid of Penny as of Neely. That's why we have investigations, hearings, trials and juries.

Penny did have more options (I couldn't have done that chokehold). He could have released the hold, as well. Others could have either expressed encouragement of his actions OR tried to stop him (one man seems to try...but not strongly).

This is where we're at, in big cities, on public transport.

I say this because the lawyers defending Penny need to think about all of this. There are plenty of NYers online who are saying that such incidents do not incite fear enough to warrant deadly force. And others who think that force was needed - but I think there are only a few people who think the citizens should kill other people on public transport if it's at all possible to avoid it. Including, I think, the mentally ill.

I could be wrong.

Maybe some people are at the point where they feel citizen execution of mentally ill persons is warranted. There are an alleged 49 other mentally ill problem people in NY. The Court is going to have to rule on whether such actions by citizens are warranted. Everyone understands that if there is an immediate danger, action is required - but should it be deadly? Unfortunately, Penny was trained in choke holds and knew or should have known the point at which it was lethal. One of the witnesses is telling him not to murder, to stop. Is assessing pulse. I don't see Penny saying anything back to that man, he doesn't seem concerned about the state of his choke hold (yet, his training is very much like police training - he knows what can happen with a choke hold).

If an entire jury of 12 people thinks Penny should be exonerated, that's a huge deal.

IMO.
 
<modsnip - quoted post and response was removed>

"Neely was yelling and harassing passengers on the train ... "Mr. Neely began aggressively threatening Daniel," and the Marine veteran and others "acted to protect themselves." ... Mr. Neely had a documented history of violent and erratic behavior" link

A mentally ill man is violently threatening others. Do you really want to take the 1% chance that you're the victim? Mentally ill people who are given a pass due to illness escalate, don't they, until they get the reaction they want?

We shouldn't endorse societal norms where tolerating violence in public is expected because we don't want to offend the mentally ill person who is threatening violence.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I remember the days when a mentally ill person could be spotted a block away because they talked to themselves. We knew how to avoid the problem. Today, everyone appears to be talking to themselves because they're plugged into their cell phone. Suddenly, mentally ill people who talk to themselves blend in and look normal, until they threaten violence.

Sure, we should all be compassionate to those who have challenges, but should that include being that person who does nothing while those who have challenges lash out?
 
<modsnip - quoted post and response was removed>

"Neely was yelling and harassing passengers on the train ... "Mr. Neely began aggressively threatening Daniel," and the Marine veteran and others "acted to protect themselves." ... Mr. Neely had a documented history of violent and erratic behavior" link

A mentally ill man is violently threatening others. Do you really want to take the 1% chance that you're the victim? Mentally ill people who are given a pass due to illness escalate, don't they, until they get the reaction they want?

We shouldn't endorse societal norms where tolerating violence in public is expected because we don't want to offend the mentally ill person who is threatening violence.

@otto with all due respect, your quote about Neely’s behavior is from his killer’s attorney. The investigation is not complete, and we have not been told exactly what happened. What we do know is that Penny used a dangerous chokehold on Mr Neely and killed him in the process.

No one is endorsing the tolerating of violence in public by anyone. <modsnip>

JMO
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
115
Guests online
3,361
Total visitors
3,476

Forum statistics

Threads
593,289
Messages
17,983,829
Members
229,076
Latest member
rodrickheffley
Back
Top