NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[everybodhi]

Sad. I wonder what the solution is...the issues of the "unhoused" in the United States is really getting to a tipping point. Unhoused people have become, as a group, more erratic and unstable. There are many threads on WS about mentally ill unhoused people who have done crimes against others. And, they had a long list of previous incidents. Just a matter of time...

It’s only going to get worse as housing costs continue to go up at the same time low income salaries remain stagnant.
Homelessness can be both a cause and consequence of poor mental health, not many of us would be “stable” living on the streets. I read one study that said even one night sleeping on the street can affect a person’s long term mental health.
Add trauma to the equation, again, both cause and consequence of homelessness, such as Neely’s trauma as a child of a murdered mother. But something as common as a medical trauma causing one to miss work at their low wage job can result in homelessness.
And just another reminder, mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators according to decades of statistics

The Never-Ending Loop: Homelessness, Psychiatric Disorder, and Mortality

Fundamental basic needs. A qualitative study highlighted the basic human needs that often take priority over seeking psychiatric care. Access to adequate nutrition, water, shelter, and protection from the elements are the reality homeless individuals encounter daily, and these issues take priority over psychiatric needs, which are often not addressed until a crisis occurs.

Poverty and mental health: it’s a two-way street.

People in poverty can face constant, high levels of stress, for example due to struggling to make ends meet, overcrowded or unsafe housing, fear of crime, and comparatively poor physical health.
Poverty is clearly linked with a number of mental health problems, including schizophrenia, depression and anxiety, and substance misuse.

 

[IceIce9]

I don’t know that we can blamed NYC, the state, or the USA for all of the homeless. We have shelters, soup kitchens, access to social services, outreach programs, etc. while I’m sure we could use more in the lines of shelters these things only help if people use them.
A lot of homeless don’t want the rules shelters have. MOOOOO

I used to volunteer in shelters and meal kitchens, there are plenty of shelters available but many of the homeless won’t use them. In bitter cold weather the police pick up the homeless and take them to shelters but often they don’t stay. If the weather is cold enough to be life threatening LE will “arrest” homeless people who refuse to go to shelters on their own. LE takes them to the shelter but they still leave as soon as they can get out the door.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Daniel Penny Plans to Testify Before Grand Jury in Subway Chokehold Case

Daniel Penny, charged with manslaughter in the killing of Jordan Neely, is expected to argue that he acted in self-defense.

www.nytimes.com

Behind a subscriber only wall for me.

 

[IceIce9]

Daniel Penny Plans to Testify Before Grand Jury in Subway Chokehold Case

Daniel Penny, charged with manslaughter in the killing of Jordan Neely, is expected to argue that he acted in self-defense.

www.nytimes.com

So was the choke hold really 15 minutes?

From the article: But a passenger began filming the two men on his phone after Mr. Penny’s chokehold was already in place, and the video shows it lasted about four minutes.

 

[MyBelle]

Behind a subscriber only wall for me.

It's beyond a pay wall for me too but it is encouraging to me that Penny will testify. Let the judicial process play out.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

So was the choke hold really 15 minutes?

From the article: But a passenger began filming the two men on his phone after Mr. Penny’s chokehold was already in place, and the video shows it lasted about four minutes.

Penny's attorney has said there is other video. Perhaps the train had a security camera that captured the incident from the very beginning.

JMO

 

[everybodhi]

So was the choke hold really 15 minutes?

From the article: But a passenger began filming the two men on his phone after Mr. Penny’s chokehold was already in place, and the video shows it lasted about four minutes.

If it was four minutes it is further proof how dangerous chokeholds are and why they are now banned by most police departments including all federal agencies

AAN POSITION STATEMENT ON THE USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT

The medical literature and the cumulative experience of neurologists clearly indicate that restricting cerebral blood flow or oxygen delivery, even briefly, can cause permanent injury to the brain, including stroke, cognitive impairment, and death.
Unconsciousness resulting from such maneuvers is a manifestation of catastrophic global brain dysfunction.

Because of the inherently dangerous nature of these techniques, the AAN strongly encourages federal, state, and local law enforcement and policymakers in all jurisdictions to classify neck restraints, at a minimum, as a form of deadly force.

Furthermore, because there is no amount of training or method of application of neck restraints that can mitigate the risk of death or permanent profound neurologic damage with this maneuver, the AAN recommends prohibiting the use of neck restraints.
BBM

 

[Charlot123]

.

 

[Charlot123]

I think you make good points, keeping in mind that Mr Neely had been diagnosed as schizophrenic in addition to his drug use. Either or both would have been extremely difficult for his family to deal with. And we will never know which came first. But self-medicating could certainly have been a factor in his drug use and certainly wouldn’t have helped his circumstances.

Either mental illness or both could have made his use of services difficult. He was incarcerated for 15 months and had done well until he was released to a halfway house. He was someone IMO who desperately needed ongoing inpatient treatment and/or incarceration. He was a ticking time-bomb per social workers.

He needed something like a long-term mental health facility. The ones that got closed, one by one, in the 90es.

 

[10ofRods]

Sharing a MSM article that I hope casts more light on this case. This was not an event in isolation; trained social services personnel, paid by NYC, were anticipating disaster: Jordan Neely Was on New York’s ‘Top 50’ List of Homeless People at Risk

I hope those who take the time to read that come back here and opine on the amount of social services care he received, the number of teams and interventions and trained mental-health care interactions he experienced regardless of the open warrants against him. The in-person accompaniment he got to a safe haven shelter in the Bronx. The zero-cost rehab stints he walked out of. Please read that and come back and opine as to how social services failed this man.

The legal system failed. Do you regard it as part of social services? I have no clue how people taxonomize these things.

It's a very good question (what failed). Surely there has to be a way of actually using arrest warrants to prevent citizens from taking things literally into their own hands?

imo.

 

[squareandrabbet]

The legal system failed. Do you regard it as part of social services? I have no clue how people taxonomize these things.

It's a very good question (what failed). Surely there has to be a way of actually using arrest warrants to prevent citizens from taking things literally into their own hands?

imo.

New York City has a right to shelter, but will it establish a right to sleep outside?

Democratic leaders in major U.S. cities are finding themselves politically squeezed when it comes to addressing homelessness. Their constituents are tiring of seeing homeless encampments sprouting across communities. Advocates for homeless people are denouncing the hardline approaches being...

apnews.com

Not exactly what you asked for, but still informational.

Frankly I don't think tent cities spreading will solve things, but the mayor hasn't asked me.

 

[kittythehare]

So was the choke hold really 15 minutes?

From the article: But a passenger began filming the two men on his phone after Mr. Penny’s chokehold was already in place, and the video shows it lasted about four minutes.

No idea.
It's very badly written.
The video duration was 4 minutes.
We knew that.
what we do not know is duration.
But what is most relevant is that the choke hold continued after Neely had become incapacitated.

 

[everybodhi]

BBM. I think that is exactly what happened and why Penny's attorney said there is more video that hasn't been released. It's been more than 3 weeks and still no grand jury indictment.

JMO

It looks like there will be several more weeks..it is being predicted Perry’s testimony of his own good character will factor into his defense.

Daniel Penny Plans to Testify Before Grand Jury in Subway Chokehold Case

The grand jury of 23 randomly selected people from Manhattan will meet behind closed doors over the next several weeks, though the exact timing of the process is unknown.

For the vast majority of defendants, a grand jury indictment is all but a foregone conclusion. Under New York law, defendants have a right to answer questions under oath before the grand jury before they are indicted, but rarely do so.

Mr. Penny’s plan to testify signals that his lawyers feel confident that he could represent himself well in front of a grand jury.

“They’re going to be playing up the humanity of this guy 100 percent,” said Thomas Schiels, a 30-year veteran of the Manhattan district attorney’s office. “He’s got a great military background, he’s apparently never been arrested before, he’s going to be fairly well-spoken and his claim, though not a legal self-defense perhaps, is certainly going to be appealing to much of the general public.”

 

[kittythehare]

If it was four minutes it is further proof how dangerous chokeholds are and why they are now banned by most police departments including all federal agencies

AAN POSITION STATEMENT ON THE USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT

The medical literature and the cumulative experience of neurologists clearly indicate that restricting cerebral blood flow or oxygen delivery, even briefly, can cause permanent injury to the brain, including stroke, cognitive impairment, and death.
Unconsciousness resulting from such maneuvers is a manifestation of catastrophic global brain dysfunction.

Because of the inherently dangerous nature of these techniques, the AAN strongly encourages federal, state, and local law enforcement and policymakers in all jurisdictions to classify neck restraints, at a minimum, as a form of deadly force.

Furthermore, because there is no amount of training or method of application of neck restraints that can mitigate the risk of death or permanent profound neurologic damage with this maneuver, the AAN recommends prohibiting the use of neck restraints.
BBM

MCMAP helps develop a Marines’ character. It helps make them mentally stronger and teaches the responsible use of force, leadership and importance of teamwork.
“I think it’s important that we learn these techniques,” said Sallee. “It’s important to learn how to protect yourself without taking someone else’s life in the process.”

Co. C recruits learn responsible use of force

In their fourth week of training, recruits of Company C, 1st Recruit Training Battalion, learned chokes and counter techniques during a Marine Corps Martial Arts Program session aboard Marine Corps

www.marines.mil

 

[Charlot123]

The legal system failed. Do you regard it as part of social services? I have no clue how people taxonomize these things.

It's a very good question (what failed). Surely there has to be a way of actually using arrest warrants to prevent citizens from taking things literally into their own hands?

imo.

I suspect that the street and the jail system might be communicating vessels; when there are too many people on the street, more will flow into jails; when the jails might be overflowing, more are let out into the street. There is probably some seasonality, too. If we view Mr. Neely as one person in this huge river of human homelessness’s, he was probably shuffled to and fro, within the system.

 

[10ofRods]

My apologies if I posted this yesterday. I found the source of my "30 seconds" from take down to arrival at the platform. Here's the quote:

It’s at that moment that this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck, and I think — I didn’t see, but I think — that move of grabbing him by the neck also led him to grab Neely by the legs with his own. They both fell. And then in like 30 seconds, I don’t know, we got to Broadway-Lafayette, and they were just there on the floor.

Those are the words from a much longer interview with Mr. Vasquez (the freelance journalist). He also says that Neely got on at Second Avenue, in case that wasn't clarified. Here's the full interview:

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

It was an exclusive interview. I think it has been posted before here, but I'll alert mods just in case.

 

[Sillybilly]

My apologies if I posted this yesterday. I found the source of my "30 seconds" from take down to arrival at the platform. Here's the quote:



Those are the words from a much longer interview with Mr. Vasquez (the freelance journalist). He also says that Neely got on at Second Avenue, in case that wasn't clarified. Here's the full interview:

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

It was an exclusive interview. I think it has been posted before here, but I'll alert mods just in case.

We do not consider curbed to be MSM and normally would not approve their content. In this instance however, it purports to be an actual interview with the witness whose video is under discussion, so we will make a one-time exception and allow the article.

It should be noted that the article specifies "This interview has been translated from Spanish and condensed and edited for publication."

 

[Ontario Mom]

From the above linked article:

"I tried to start filming from that moment, but I didn’t because I couldn’t see anything — it was too crowded. And then I heard him take off his jacket. He bundled it up and just threw it on the floor, very violently. You could hear the sound of the zipper hitting the floor. At that moment, when he threw the jacket, the people who were sitting around him stood up and moved away. He kept standing there and he kept yelling."

This sounds like what we've been hearing all along. Passengers were afraid of this guy. Daniel Penny acted, it all went to heck after that. It appears the witnesses are all pretty much consistant on what happened.

jmo

ETA: also, in the interest of keeping this dicussion fact based, the first line of the article is factually incorrect. Jordan Neely was not murdered, and Daniel Penny was not charged with murder. Although to be fair to the writer, this was dated 05.05 and no charges had been filed yet. So, the article leads with the writer's opinion of what happened.

 

[Cryptic]

He probably 'attacked' a lot of people.
I often got a box from a patient.

Did you often get your nose and orbital bone broken by patients? I am thinking his boxing was a little on the heavy handed side.

 

[kittythehare]

Did you often get your nose and orbital bone broken by patients? I am thinking his boxing was a little on the heavy handed side.

Do you really believe that is why he was choked to death?
Two years later?
The guy is dead.
He didn't kill himself.