4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[Sister Golden Hair]

It does not surprise me that the information would be shared between the PA GJ and Idaho. I wanted to check the statutes first, I don't think we can assume that this is nefarious. There may or may not be information shared that will be relevant to the ID case, but it makes sense that the parents' testimony would be shared in case there is something relevant. PA parties wouldn't know what would or would not matter. Erring on the side of conservatism is a practical choice as well as an accounting principle. It could even be the defense that reached out for the information. Hard to say. It could be like the Brady/Giglio violations - related to anything, a nothing burger, or a big whopper. But the act of sharing alone is not an indicator of anything much. I believe that once the information is revealed, this will be one of the least shocking pieces of it. IMO JMO.

Title 42

www.legis.state.pa.us

Disclosure of proceedings by participants other than witnesses.--Disclosure of matters occurring before the grand jury...
The attorneys for the Commonwealth may with the approval of the supervising judge disclose matters occurring before the investigating grand jury including transcripts of testimony to local, State, other state or Federal law enforcement or investigating agencies to assist them in investigating crimes under their investigative jurisdiction.

Title 18

www.legis.state.pa.us

 

[Sundog]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>
Pennsylvania law allows judges to release transcripts of witness testimony before grand juries to other investigative agencies after a court hearing.

source

Parents of Idaho student murder suspect subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury

By law, a Monroe County grand jury can only review potential crimes that occurred within Monroe County, Pennsylvania. It is unclear what potential crime they are investigating.

abc7chicago.com

 

[Balthazar]

You know my mind goes to some pretty crazy places of speculation, so when I saw this sharing order, I thought maybe BK did have a solid alibi that night. He was home with his parents, his phone was at his parents, and he was using his phone during this time, online stalking WSU and U of I students...

How easy would it have been for him to find SM activity for current students, like any of the victims? He knew he was moving to WA soon, so why not? I'm not even saying he was already planning the murders, but he could have already found one of the girls online. Jmo.

The news reports says he was not "in the region" at the time of DS' murder. It was right after he graduated with his Master's degree. Maybe he went on a trip? So I'm thinking the Grand Jury is looking at something else entirely to do with him and that information is somehow beneficial to the case in Idaho.

 

[Cool Cats]

Yes. I think I do. Instinct/compulsion + opportunity + weapon + plan(optional) = commission of crime.
I agree with you - IMO once the commitment to the commission of the crime was definite, things escalated dramatically.

I just had a hideous thought - it's been mentioned in this thread (regarding motor rego) that BK's birthday was in November. I'm REALLY hoping it wasn't close to the date of these murders....

November 21, 1994 I think is his birthday. I have been looking for a photo of his drivers license but only came up with this:



Retired NYPD Detective. Host of “The Rob O’Donnell Show” on NEPA’s largest News/Talk Station @WILKnewsradio *Law Enforcement Senior Contributor*

https://twitter.com/x/status/1608874549202026497

 

[10ofRods]

Alot can be read into his expression. When we see him he normally has a blank generic stare but in this traffic stop you get to see some interesting expressions on his face.

If I just saw this face randomly in another context, I would say that this is the face of a person in pain.

IMO.

I vacillate between compulsion or plan. BK wants to be important IMO.

I think he wanted to prove his belief in Rational Choice Theory. He believed that one viable theory of criminal behavior (that would fit many criminal actions) is that the criminal is not insane, but actually attempting to be rational (I'd say, opportunistic) in making decisions. I think he felt he would be important (to himself and others) by "proving" this right, inside himself.

He messed up really badly and I do wonder if he now feels something like humiliation. He's now notorious, which fits his goal of importance, though.

So I guess I think it's obsession, compulsion AND planning. You and I are thinking along similar lines. At the end of the day, it's my wonder over the motivation in this crime that drives me crazy and causes my own obsessions to kick in.

IMO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

The news reports says he was not "in the region" at the time of DS' murder. It was right after he graduated with his Master's degree. Maybe he went on a trip? So I'm thinking the Grand Jury is looking at something else entirely to do with him and that information is somehow beneficial to the case in Idaho.

Or it could just be that the ID peeps wanted the information JIC, even the defense could have requested via LE (the record would be subject to discovery) and if the testimony contained any exculpatory evidence, the prosecution would need to turn it over regardless. It's actually prudent to do this on both sides of the ID legal equation imo. If I were prosecution or defense in ID, and I knew that the parents of my suspect/client were testifying in a GJ investigatory hearing, I'd want the records even if was only a case involving canned sardines. I would not want to miss the potential - and if there was nothing, at least I can say I tried.

 

[10ofRods]

I’m late here. Been following other cases. Can someone tell me how she died, or was killed? Thanks.

Did anyone answer? We don't know how Ms Smithers died. Her body was found almost a year later and the autopsy has not been released, AFAIK. We may find out some day, but right now, it's within a (non-public) Grand Jury investigation.

Good to see you here. This is an interesting case, for sure.

imo

 

[Sundog]

Or it could just be that the ID peeps wanted the information JIC, even the defense could have requested via LE (the record would be subject to discovery) and if the testimony contained any exculpatory evidence, the prosecution would need to turn it over regardless. It's actually prudent to do this on both sides of the ID legal equation imo. If I were prosecution or defense in ID, and I knew that the parents of my suspect/client were testifying in a GJ investigatory hearing, I'd want the records even if was only a case involving canned sardines. I would not want to miss the potential - and if there was nothing, at least I can say I tried.

On the other hand, I hope that the PA legal system would have some policies or guidelines in place for judges to follow in the event of a decision to share grand jury testimony transcripts with other states and legal jurisdictions. Otherwise, it would seem to be quite arbitrary. I haven't had time to research this, but maybe someone here knows the policy/guidelines if there are any.

Maybe our verified attorney @prairiefriend can help us out with this.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

On the other hand, I hope that the PA legal system would have some policies or guidelines in place for judges to follow in the event of a decision to share grand jury testimony transcripts with other states and legal jurisdictions. Otherwise, it would seem to be quite arbitrary. I haven't had time to research this, but maybe someone here knows the policy/guidelines if there are any.

Maybe our verified attorney @prairiefriend can help us out with this.

(b) Disclosure of proceedings by participants other than witnesses.--Disclosure of matters occurring before the grand jury other than its deliberations and the vote of any juror may be made to the attorneys for the Commonwealth for use in the performance of their duties. The attorneys for the Commonwealth may with the approval of the supervising judge disclose matters occurring before the investigating grand jury including transcripts of testimony to local, State, other state or Federal law enforcement or investigating agencies to assist them in investigating crimes under their investigative jurisdiction. Otherwise a juror, attorney, interpreter, stenographer, operator of a recording device, or any typist who transcribes recorded testimony may disclose matters occurring before the grand jury only when so directed by the court. All such persons shall be sworn to secrecy, and shall be in contempt of court if they reveal any information which they are sworn to keep secret.

and I think you mean @PrairieWind IMO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

No. The original poster was discussing who gave the cars back.The families didn't. LE it seems released a couple.

Just FYI. The poster you quoted asked if LE still has them, not who gave them back. The OP said K and X vehicles were given back, but not the Chapin's vehicle and the poster you quoted asked if LE still has it. Just clearing that up.

 

[10ofRods]

That^^^ is a really valid point and a good question.

Was he really serious about wanting to get his PHD? If so, why get into heated beef with the supervising professor who has a big say in your future success?

Did he have a lack of self control, when it came to being triggered or feeling disrespected?

Great way to phrase this question. Thanks for pulling that out. It seems he had a hard time with various impulses (probably a huge understatement), but also worked hard at controlling certain basic parts of his life/lifestyle. After his heroin addiction, he then adopts a fairly rigid dietary plan for himself, perhaps first for weight loss (which is never easy). He may think his own self-control and deportment is superior to others.

Having lost half his body weight, he probably prided himself intensely on self-control and felt that making "rational choices" with exercise and health were sterling qualities - but generalized, oddly, to believing that this was true of human problem solving in general. At any rate, he viewed himself as highly rational, I'm sure.

But it seems he got into altercations (plural) with the professor over the prof trying to guide him to better TA skills. And caused other people to feel uncomfortable (possibly without being able to sense, see or realize that).

The tailgating in Indiana is another example (impatiently up on the rear end of the next vehicle - twice in 10 minutes). Probably does it all the time.

He may have thought the Ph.D. would be easy for him - or at least easier than it turned out to be.

imo

 

[DrQ]

IMHO I don't know if BK's trial will be on live TV. However, there will be plenty of time for all of us to watch (maybe) and follow his trial.
Due to my career, I trend to not get emotional about anyone except the victims. In BK I see a man who dislikes himself so deeply and feels nothing to the point of (allegedly) killing four innocent young people. When looking at his pictures, I see a flat deadness to his eyes with a hint of anger. I have yet to feel that he is fearful and see slight arrogance in his arrest pictures. I see a man who is so awkward with women that (while filmed in court) he can barely make and keep eye contact with his attorney.
He has the right to be defended and roll the dice with hopes for his freedom. Madison, Kaylee, Xana, and Ethan had all of their hopes, dreams, and lives taken away which will forever haunt their families and friends.
Deep in my heart, I believe he did it. If this true, I hope he is found guilty. I am hopeful but doubtful that he will pled guilty if they remove the death sentence. It would save the pain of the parents and friends sitting in court. I am not a fan of BTK but he did pled guilty and was sentenced without all the drama, cost, and sadness for the families.
With this trial, everyone on both sides will have to live with all that comes out about their personal lives. All of BK's family dysfunction (which families usually have) will unfortunately be disclosed for all to hear. I find that sad.

 

[DrQ]

IMHO I don't know if BK's trial will be on live TV. However, there will be plenty of time for all of us to watch (maybe) and follow his trial.
Due to my career, I trend to not get emotional about anyone except the victims. In BK I see a man who dislikes himself so deeply and feels nothing to the point of (allegedly) killing four innocent young people. When looking at his pictures, I see a flat deadness to his eyes with a hint of anger. I have yet to feel that he is fearful and see slight arrogance in his arrest pictures. I see a man who is so awkward with women that (while filmed in court) he can barely make and keep eye contact with his attorney.
He has the right to be defended and roll the dice with hopes for his freedom. Madison, Kaylee, Xana, and Ethan had all of their hopes, dreams, and lives taken away which will forever haunt their families and friends.
Deep in my heart, I believe he did it. If this true, I hope he is found guilty. I am hopeful but doubtful that he will pled guilty if they remove the death sentence. It would save the pain of the parents and friends sitting in court. I am not a fan of BTK but he did pled guilty and was sentenced without all the drama, cost, and sadness for the families.
With this trial, everyone on both sides will have to live with all that comes out about their personal lives. All of BK's family dysfunction (which families usually have) will unfortunately be disclosed for all to hear. I find that sad.

 

[Balthazar]

It does not surprise me that the information would be shared between the PA GJ and Idaho. I wanted to check the statutes first, I don't think we can assume that this is nefarious. There may or may not be information shared that will be relevant to the ID case, but it makes sense that the parents' testimony would be shared in case there is something relevant. PA parties wouldn't know what would or would not matter. Erring on the side of conservatism is a practical choice as well as an accounting principle. It could even be the defense that reached out for the information. Hard to say. It could be like the Brady/Giglio violations - related to anything, a nothing burger, or a big whopper. But the act of sharing alone is not an indicator of anything much. I believe that once the information is revealed, this will be one of the least shocking pieces of it. IMO JMO.

Title 42

www.legis.state.pa.us

Disclosure of proceedings by participants other than witnesses.--Disclosure of matters occurring before the grand jury...
The attorneys for the Commonwealth may with the approval of the supervising judge disclose matters occurring before the investigating grand jury including transcripts of testimony to local, State, other state or Federal law enforcement or investigating agencies to assist them in investigating crimes under their investigative jurisdiction.

Title 18

www.legis.state.pa.us

At first I thought that the evidence being examined in Pennsylvania might be in regards to him cleaning his car. I know that LE observed him doing that. And now we know the family also looked in his car. I'm not sure if LE observed the family search or not. I would think having questions about that would be very reasonable. The ONLY thing that makes me think this is something else is that the sisters don't seem to be involved in the Grand Jury and I believe they would HAVE to be because one of his sisters allegedly made the accusation.

So, by logic and elimination, this is something else, something only the parents would know about, not his sisters.

It would not be about the drive back from Washington since his mother was not present. Is it about something that preceded his move to Washington or something that happened between the time he got home and was arrested? Or, were there phone calls, emails or texts he made to his parents prior to the murders that are of interest to the Grand Jury?

 

[Love Never Fails]

Did anyone answer? We don't know how Ms Smithers died. Her body was found almost a year later and the autopsy has not been released, AFAIK. We may find out some day, but right now, it's within a (non-public) Grand Jury investigation.

Good to see you here. This is an interesting case, for sure.

imo

Thanks for welcoming me. This is the kind of case nightmares are made of. Most cases just make you angry and you want revenge for the victims because the killings are senseless.
Well, actually any killing is senseless.

But I remember a few serial killer cases, Ted Bundy, BTK and one in Texas. And I can’t delve into them too much or I definitely will have nightmares.

This one is the act of a wanna be serial killer, I think, and he is cruel and sick and all the things that a regular human being is not.
I could say more but it would really disturb me to think of it.

I hope he didn’t kill the lady in PA. But someone did.

 

[Warwick7]

Just FYI. The poster you quoted asked if LE still has them, not who gave them back. The OP said K and X vehicles were given back, but not the Chapin's vehicle and the poster you quoted asked if LE still has it. Just clearing that up.

Then we agree.

 

[10ofRods]

Isn't the Grand Jury convened in the County where Smithers went missing (Monroe County). She was also found in that County. The investigative GJ was convened a month or two after her disappearance. I suspect it is hearing any evidence put forward. Maybe looking at tips, esp. if there were multiple tips about a suspect.

BK does not live in Monroe County. If the GJ had something to do with the Kohberger's property or evidence in the Idaho case (which I find it hard to believe could be sought in this way but IANAL), then it would convene in Carbon County (where the Kohbergers live).

Now, I am using MSM for the court's name (the one where the Kohberger's went to testify):

Bryan Kohberger's parents subpoenaed to testify before Penn. grand jury

CNN reports that Bryan Kohberger's parents have been subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury in Monroe County, Pennsylvania.Bryan Kohberger has been charged

idahonews.com

(Idaho news is citing the CNN report).

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

At first I thought that the evidence being examined in Pennsylvania might be in regards to him cleaning his car. I know that LE observed him doing that. And now we know the family also looked in his car. I'm not sure if LE observed the family search or not. I would think having questions about that would be very reasonable. The ONLY thing that makes me think this is something else is that the sisters don't seem to be involved in the Grand Jury and I believe they would HAVE to be because one of his sisters allegedly made the accusation.

So, by logic and elimination, this is something else, something only the parents would know about, not his sisters.

It would not be about the drive back from Washington since his mother was not present. Is it about something that preceded his move to Washington or something that happened between the time he got home and was arrested? Or, were there phone calls, emails or texts he made to his parents prior to the murders that are of interest to the Grand Jury?

BBM for emphasis

Cleaning a car is not a crime, so the PA GJ couldn't call them in to testify about that. We also know that PA cannot investigate ID & WA crimes, and that county can only investigate crimes in that county in PA. So narrowing down to crimes in that county in PA to which BK's parents might have information really limits the scope of what's possible. And I'm sure that any texts and phone call records have already been seized per the WA, ID and PA warrants, and how would the GJ in PA be investigating that anyway?

WA warrant gets them

https://d.newsweek.com/en/file/465464/bryan-kohberger-search-warrant.pdf

PA warrant gets them

Commonwealth v. Kohberger 682 MD 2022 | Cases of Public Interest | News & Statistics | Unified Judicial System of Pennsylvania

ID warrants also seized digital records and all his AT&T and other media.

I think the best we can know about this without making random leaps is that if we were LE, the prosecution and/or the defense in this case, we would want to review the GJ investigative hearing testimony of the parents of the man accused of a quadruple homicide and who was about to be tried and potentially sentenced to death. IMO that would be worthy of examination, regardless. But more than that, it's all assumption. We only know three things: 1) the parents were subpoenaed to testify in a GJ investigative hearing; 2) the county GJ can only investigate crimes in their county in their state; and 3) the parents are not the potential suspects. I think that's all we can be sure of, though ICBW.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Isn't the Grand Jury convened in the County where Smithers went missing (Monroe County). She was also found in that County. The investigative GJ was convened a month or two after her disappearance. I suspect it is hearing any evidence put forward. Maybe looking at tips, esp. if there were multiple tips about a suspect.

BK does not live in Monroe County. If the GJ had something to do with the Kohberger's property or evidence in the Idaho case (which I find it hard to believe could be sought in this way but IANAL), then it would convene in Carbon County (where the Kohbergers live).

Now, I am using MSM for the court's name (the one where the Kohberger's went to testify):

Bryan Kohberger's parents subpoenaed to testify before Penn. grand jury

CNN reports that Bryan Kohberger's parents have been subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury in Monroe County, Pennsylvania.Bryan Kohberger has been charged

idahonews.com

(Idaho news is citing the CNN report).

@10ofRods, the Kohbergers do actually live in MONROE COUNTY, PA. Their home is technically in the Chestnut Hill Township, which is in Monroe Co.

IMO

 

[Helechawagirl]

So police seized a total of 5 cars: Investigators seize 5 cars from house where University of Idaho students were murdered

Kaylee
Xana's
2 that belong to the Chapins
and?

Whose car is #5?

Maddie’s maybe?