Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[CityKid]

Like many here, in cases like this, where my assumption is guilt, I always like to try and come up a plausible opposite narrative of innocence too. It’s certainly tricky with what we have so far!
But perhaps something like:

The suspect is preparing beef wellington. Realises she under-bought on the button mushrooms, and has no time to go and buy more. No problem - she has those dried ones in the cupboard she bought at an Asian grocer a while back! Rehydrates them and adds to the mix.
Lunch is served.

Her guests, who are all significantly more elderly and lower BMI than her all succumb very quickly. She only suffers mild sickness - perhaps somehow related to those two factors (older people’s health and organs are generally less resilient; BMI may have some impact on toxin levels?) or she eats less of the wellington than them for some other reason (on a diet or similar).

The kids eat the leftovers with the mushrooms removed because they are, like me, grossed out by eating fungus in any form and insist on it all being scraped off.

Some time later when everyone is hospitalised the doctors report it is suspected mushroom poisoning. At this point she starts to doubt the provenance of the dried mushrooms she used. *Were* they the Asian grocer ones she’d had, or could these be ones they had foraged some time ago? Now she’s not so sure.
Kids ask along similar lines and Dad overhears and makes the documented “is that how you poisoned them?” comment. Suspect panics, as she says, and in her wild panic irrationally thinks that removing evidence of any accidental poison mushrooms from her home will somehow exonerate her. Dumps the dehydrator and sticks with the story as she thought it was, prior to the sicknesses - that she was just using up some dried mushrooms from the grocer’s. Because that, in her mind, was the version of events where she was ‘innocent’.

It’s sort of possible, but for me I struggle to come up with any narrative that doesn’t involve the remarkable coincidence of neither her nor her kids eating (much of) the poisoned shrooms. Unless age really is a protective factor in mushroom poisoning, which so far I’ve found no evidence to suggest.

I’d be interested to hear anyone else’s attempt at a reasonable narrative of innocence!

I like your narrative (except I don't believe she ingested any poison, and I love mushrooms). Unfortunately for EP, her lies and her dumping of the dehydrator don't allow this to be a plausible story.

 

[CityKid]

DBM

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Like many here, in cases like this, where my assumption is guilt, I always like to try and come up a plausible opposite narrative of innocence too. It’s certainly tricky with what we have so far!
But perhaps something like:

The suspect is preparing beef wellington. Realises she under-bought on the button mushrooms, and has no time to go and buy more. No problem - she has those dried ones in the cupboard she bought at an Asian grocer a while back! Rehydrates them and adds to the mix.
Lunch is served.

Her guests, who are all significantly more elderly and lower BMI than her all succumb very quickly. She only suffers mild sickness - perhaps somehow related to those two factors (older people’s health and organs are generally less resilient; BMI may have some impact on toxin levels?) or she eats less of the wellington than them for some other reason (on a diet or similar).

The kids eat the leftovers with the mushrooms removed because they are, like me, grossed out by eating fungus in any form and insist on it all being scraped off.

Some time later when everyone is hospitalised the doctors report it is suspected mushroom poisoning. At this point she starts to doubt the provenance of the dried mushrooms she used. *Were* they the Asian grocer ones she’d had, or could these be ones they had foraged some time ago? Now she’s not so sure.
Kids ask along similar lines and Dad overhears and makes the documented “is that how you poisoned them?” comment. Suspect panics, as she says, and in her wild panic irrationally thinks that removing evidence of any accidental poison mushrooms from her home will somehow exonerate her. Dumps the dehydrator and sticks with the story as she thought it was, prior to the sicknesses - that she was just using up some dried mushrooms from the grocer’s. Because that, in her mind, was the version of events where she was ‘innocent’.

It’s sort of possible, but for me I struggle to come up with any narrative that doesn’t involve the remarkable coincidence of neither her nor her kids eating (much of) the poisoned shrooms. Unless age really is a protective factor in mushroom poisoning, which so far I’ve found no evidence to suggest.

I’d be interested to hear anyone else’s attempt at a reasonable narrative of innocence!

I have no firm opinion yet at all, and have surmised the same scenario, basically.

I am having trouble accepting guilty of poisoning. Just not sure why.
I just keep saying...i want to hear from those children!

 

[SMK777]

Like many here, in cases like this, where my assumption is guilt, I always like to try and come up a plausible opposite narrative of innocence too. It’s certainly tricky with what we have so far!
But perhaps something like:

The suspect is preparing beef wellington. Realises she under-bought on the button mushrooms, and has no time to go and buy more. No problem - she has those dried ones in the cupboard she bought at an Asian grocer a while back! Rehydrates them and adds to the mix.
Lunch is served.

Her guests, who are all significantly more elderly and lower BMI than her all succumb very quickly. She only suffers mild sickness - perhaps somehow related to those two factors (older people’s health and organs are generally less resilient; BMI may have some impact on toxin levels?) or she eats less of the wellington than them for some other reason (on a diet or similar).

The kids eat the leftovers with the mushrooms removed because they are, like me, grossed out by eating fungus in any form and insist on it all being scraped off.

Some time later when everyone is hospitalised the doctors report it is suspected mushroom poisoning. At this point she starts to doubt the provenance of the dried mushrooms she used. *Were* they the Asian grocer ones she’d had, or could these be ones they had foraged some time ago? Now she’s not so sure.
Kids ask along similar lines and Dad overhears and makes the documented “is that how you poisoned them?” comment. Suspect panics, as she says, and in her wild panic irrationally thinks that removing evidence of any accidental poison mushrooms from her home will somehow exonerate her. Dumps the dehydrator and sticks with the story as she thought it was, prior to the sicknesses - that she was just using up some dried mushrooms from the grocer’s. Because that, in her mind, was the version of events where she was ‘innocent’.

It’s sort of possible, but for me I struggle to come up with any narrative that doesn’t involve the remarkable coincidence of neither her nor her kids eating (much of) the poisoned shrooms. Unless age really is a protective factor in mushroom poisoning, which so far I’ve found no evidence to suggest.

I’d be interested to hear anyone else’s attempt at a reasonable narrative of innocence!

Yes, elderly people may be weaker when it comes to things like Listeria which are only dangerously toxic in people with compromised immune systems (infants, elderly, cancer patients, and others).

But the literature on death cap mushrooms asserts that they can be fatal to anyone ingesting them. Quite different.

 

[arrogantcat]

I have no firm opinion yet at all, and have surmised the same scenario, basically.

I am having trouble accepting guilty of poisoning. Just not sure why.
I just keep saying...i want to hear from those children!

It’s definitely hard to believe anyone would ever expect to get away with it, and even less so with no pre-considered cover story. One of those cases that doesn’t really make sense whatever way you look at it, so far!

 

[SMK777]

It’s definitely hard to believe anyone would ever expect to get away with it, and even less so with no pre-considered cover story. One of those cases that doesn’t really make sense whatever way you look at it, so far!

She may have thought it would be automatically deemed a tragic accident, after presenting herself at the hospital. So many crimes are committed by people (Chris Watts, Lori Vallow, Scott Peterson) who thought they would not become suspects.

 

[MsMarple]

It’s definitely hard to believe anyone would ever expect to get away with it, and even less so with no pre-considered cover story. One of those cases that doesn’t really make sense whatever way you look at it, so far!

I agree that this case doesn’t make sense but EP does have a cover story, in the form of a sworn statement she gave to her lawyers. The Deputy Police Commissioner noted that it wasn’t an official police statement.

She’s claiming she bought fresh button mushrooms from a supermarket and dried mushrooms from an Asian market. She can’t remember the name or location other than it was in Mt. Waverley.

She said she threw away a dehydrator after her estranged husband asked her if she used it to poison his relatives. She said she lied to LE about it because she was scared she’d lose her kids.

She claims she also became ill and had to have a saline drip and meds to protect her liver.

I do agree that it’s helpful sometimes to look at a case from an opposite perspective but IMO arguing a different scenario requires basing the argument on known facts.
MOO

Deputy police chief slams ‘unhelpful’ circulation of mushroom cook’s statement

Victoria Police say their lengthy investigation into the deaths of three people will include examining the veracity of Erin Patterson’s statement about the fatal lunch.

www.theage.com.au

 

[MissTwiddle]

The death caps are out of season, so if she did use them on purpose to lace the meal this means she had them on her person for quite some time.

This means the use of the mushrooms is premeditated OR it’s been a contingency plan / a just in case plan.

I’m struggling to understand how, when we’re looking at someone who supposedly has the wherewithal to preplan the execution of all of her dinner guests. From picking and dehydrating poisonous mushrooms months earlier, storing them safely, engineering a dinner where they would all be present, carefully handing the death caps so as she herself wouldn’t ingest them, making sure her children were safely at the cinema, but yet she’s not thought of a reasonable explanation on how it could have happened.

Surely someone with such murderous intent would have dumped the dehydrator months earlier AND not made it obvious she’s used poisonous mushrooms by making a dish where mushrooms play a key role.

And, on top of all that one of the key guests was missing! Was she that keen to kill she thought ‘F it’ I can’t be bothered to wait another week / month until I can get them all in the same room. Makes no sense.

 

[Salah11]

It doesn’t have to make sense to us why she did it but looking at the crime at face value there seems to be little chance she wasn’t involved IMO

All the Symptoms fit death cap Mushroom poisoning and she has admitted she used plenty of mushrooms in her dish.

In a police statement obtained by the ABC, Erin reportedly told investigators that she had prepared a meal of beef Wellington with a “lot of mushrooms”.

She claims she got them in a store ( can’t remember where) awhile ago but oddly no other outbreak of death cap mushrooms in the local area.



ETA - her ex husband has even accused her and he also oddly had a very serious illness where he was sick and spent months in hospital and it’s still unexplained what was wrong with him.

 

[jjenny]

The death caps are out of season, so if she did use them on purpose to lace the meal this means she had them on her person for quite some time.

This means the use of the mushrooms is premeditated OR it’s been a contingency plan / a just in case plan.

I’m struggling to understand how, when we’re looking at someone who supposedly has the wherewithal to preplan the execution of all of her dinner guests. From picking and dehydrating poisonous mushrooms months earlier, storing them safely, engineering a dinner where they would all be present, carefully handing the death caps so as she herself wouldn’t ingest them, making sure her children were safely at the cinema, but yet she’s not thought of a reasonable explanation on how it could have happened.

Surely someone with such murderous intent would have dumped the dehydrator months earlier AND not made it obvious she’s used poisonous mushrooms by making a dish where mushrooms play a key role.

And, on top of all that one of the key guests was missing! Was she that keen to kill she thought ‘F it’ I can’t be bothered to wait another week / month until I can get them all in the same room. Makes no sense.

Well it doesn't always makes sense. Look at Lori Vallow. Children's bodies were buried on the property of the boyfriend, for crying out loud. They could have hidden the bodies away from the property (lots of forest around), but here we are.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

At this point she starts to doubt the provenance of the dried mushrooms she used. *Were* they the Asian grocer ones she’d had, or could these be ones they had foraged some time ago? Now she’s not so sure.

RSBM

Here's a question:

there's been mention in earlier media reports of the handwritten label on the mushrooms bought at the Asian shop.

And in an article discussed in the last thread (from the UK Independent, I think) she is described as wanting "to use them up" as they'd been in her pantry for a while.

So where is this labelled packaging she would presumably have discarded in her trash if she used up the last of the mushrooms? (or that is still in her pantry if she didn't use them all)

Also when she said "use them up" it made me wonder if she had used any of them previously in some other meal? If so, it might offer some indication that the dried mushrooms weren't actually the source of the poison.

MOO

 

[jjenny]

RSBM

Here's a question:

there's been mention in earlier media reports of the handwritten label on the mushrooms bought at the Asian shop.

And in an article discussed in the last thread (from the UK Independent, I think) she is described as wanting "to use them up" as they'd been in her pantry for a while.

So where is this labelled packaging she would presumably have discarded in her trash if she used up the last of the mushrooms? (or that is still in her pantry if she didn't use them all)

Also when she said "use them up" it made me wonder if she had used any of them previously in some other meal? If so, it might offer some indication that the dried mushrooms weren't actually the source of the poison.

MOO

I don't think there were dried mushrooms she purchased from the Asian grocer. I think she made that up.

 

[jjleroche]

In France, pharmacists are trained to recognise mushroom types and you can take any foraged finds to a chemist for ID. Precisely for this reason!

What a great idea!

 

[jjleroche]

I have no firm opinion yet at all, and have surmised the same scenario, basically.

I am having trouble accepting guilty of poisoning. Just not sure why.
I just keep saying...i want to hear from those children!

Me too!

 

[jjleroche]

It doesn’t have to make sense to us why she did it but looking at the crime at face value there seems to be little chance she wasn’t involved IMO

All the Symptoms fit death cap Mushroom poisoning and she has admitted she used plenty of mushrooms in her dish.




She claims she got them in a store ( can’t remember where) awhile ago but oddly no other outbreak of death cap mushrooms in the local area.



ETA - her ex husband has even accused her and he also oddly had a very serious illness where he was sick and spent months in hospital and it’s still unexplained what was wrong with him.

 

[jjleroche]

DBM

 

[kittythehare]

Me too!

Same but I'm almost always wrong.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It’s definitely hard to believe anyone would ever expect to get away with it, and even less so with no pre-considered cover story. One of those cases that doesn’t really make sense whatever way you look at it, so far!

This is the aspect that makes no sense.

Unless maybe one idea. How about EP did have a stash of death cap mushroom, dried and powdered and kept in a packet or jar. She had it because she was planning on using some time, maybe on the (ex) husband. However, someone's pulled a dirty trick on her -or- she's got mixed up and gone and used a bit of it, or cross contaminated other dried mushrooms with it maybe on the dehydrator. And as opposed to all of this being some mass murder attempt, it's been a muddle up?

 

[kittythehare]

This is the aspect that makes no sense.

Unless maybe one idea. How about EP did have a stash of death cap mushroom, dried and powdered and kept in a packet or jar. She had it because she was planning on using some time, maybe on the (ex) husband. However, someone's pulled a dirty trick on her -or- she's got mixed up and gone and used a bit of it, or cross contaminated other dried mushrooms with it maybe on the dehydrator. And as opposed to all of this being some mass murder attempt, it's been a muddle up?

What about somebody else putting them there or switching labels?

 

[jjenny]

What about somebody else putting them there or switching labels?

If she was not aware of the special mushrooms, one would think she would have eaten a nice portion of the meal herself.