GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

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This is a great insight into child psychopaths - it's a very long article that features different named people as children or as now adults. This out of all things I've read this past week helps me glean an insight into LL as a solo child and how not having siblings might have kept obvious things under wraps. JMO

Link here: When Your Child Is a Psychopath
 
This is quite good if anybody interested in Dr Das trying to work out what her notes ( the three exhibits, postit notes) display.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'Scribbled notes are the only glimpse into Lucy Letby's twisted mind'

DR SOHOM DAS: Those scribbled notes are, quite simply, a glimpse into Lucy Letby's psyche. As a forensic psychiatrist, it's my job to treat and rehabilitate what some call the 'criminally insane'.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
If there is an appeal I would assume it would revolve around The lack of hard evidence. That has already been debated on here.
 
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I was a teenager and young woman in a different place and time - but still. When I look at those photos of a young Lucy and her friends out having fun, it strikes me as a bit odd. It's all girls - where are the guys? Before young people start pairing off, in my experience they go out socialising in mixed groups. Especially church young people, which Lucy was. But this was all girls. Were all these girls together because they were similar in many ways? Perhaps all a bit shy, a bit immature, not particularly popular with boys? Them against the world? So now they are closing ranks to support one of their own, and maybe aren't mature enough to see LL as she truly is? Just an idea.
 
Officer Dibble said:
This is a great insight into child psychopaths - it's a very long article that features different named people as children or as now adults. This out of all things I've read this past week helps me glean an insight into LL as a solo child and how not having siblings might have kept obvious things under wraps. JMO

Link here: When Your Child Is a Psychopath
Click to expand...
Thank you!
Very interesting read!
 
WaxLyrical said:
It’s the insulin cases. The entire case relies on them, would the police even have charged her without this irrefutable proof of foul play. Furthermore, if the jury considered her guilty of one charge then they could take this into consideration when assessing other charges, and we can see now they were unanimous on the insulin charges.

Except both prosecution and defence did a terrible job of presenting the evidence, and even by closing were still arguing which baby was given more insulin than the other, and how many bags were poisoned. It was never resolved, and the judge simply directed the jury not to be detectives.

There were various pieces of testimony given, talk of “sticky” insulin, how many units were given and over what period. No forensic testing or attempt to recreate the insulin output they observed at the point the blood samples were taken, using the same machine, giving sets, fluids and rate of administration. It was all very “finger in the air”, saying a minute amount of insulin would have been required, despite it having such a short half life. If it transpired that 8 vials were needed to produce what they observed, then no nurse would even have access to this amount of insulin. The lab itself told the hospital to send the samples to an another specific lab who could run a specific insulin test, but the hospital didn’t and so the lab destroyed the blood sample a week later. The lab further said this wasn’t unusual and that hospitals “usually” didn’t take them up on the offer, suggesting these results are not as rare as we’d think.

There was further key witness testimony on the insulin, but no live reporting on that day, so it’s very possible the jury had access to important information that the public has not (which I personally hope to be the case).

I am completely unsurprised that people who are now only becoming aware of this case and the evidence underpinning it are now asking these sorts of questions. I asked them myself for many months. My key question being whether they can be certain the c-peptide readings were accurate.
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one question and an easy yes or no is enough for me ( I have others but I'll keep it short)

did LL's Defence put on their own expert witness to counter the Pros's evidence on the insulin poisoned kids?
 
Taskforce88 said:
It appears to be a narrative that is being created on social media and blogs.
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Taskforce88 said:
I guess the fact it was all circumstantial
Click to expand...

Were those social media people and bloggers in the courtroom every day? I doubt it. And you know what they say—opinions are like arseholes, everyone’s got one.

And many on social media and many bloggers are creating an opinion out of thin air, with little to no basis in any facts of this case. We should listen to and read from people who actually know and have information about the case.

Circumstantial evidence is good, strong evidence. LL is a monster, and those who choose to believe otherwise despite ALL the evidence presented have some weird personal agenda going on.

IMO (yeah, I’ve got one, too)
 
cottonweaver said:
one question and an easy yes or no is enough for me ( I have others but I'll keep it short)

did LL's Defence put on their own expert witness to counter the Pros's evidence on the insulin poisoned kids?
Click to expand...
no.

Her defence consisted of her saying she didn’t do it, and a plumber saying he unblocked a sink on a date when no incidents occurred.
 
  1. Lucy Letby was on shift for all 22 incidents of collapse/death - not much in and of itself right?​
  2. Collapses only happened at night, while LL was on night shifts. Once LL was moved to day shifts, the collapses followed her there. And once she was removed from the unit completely, lo and behold they stopped.
  3. Lucy Letby had opportunity. She was in some cases witnessed being the last person near these babies before they collapsed. She didn’t require long to inject air into her victims. A few seconds would have been enough.
  4. Lucy Letby didn’t like not being allocated babies in room 1. This is where the itu babies were. In the case of baby C she moaned to a co worker about not being designated a room 1 baby just 6 minutes before baby C collapsed and died
  5. Lucy Letby was found with 257 handover sheets in her home, relating to many of the victims. Handover sheets that should never have left the hospital. And certainly should not have been stashed in bags for life or boxes marked ‘KEEP’
  6. Lucy Letby owned a shredder that she could have used to shred these personal documents but didn’t (even though she claims to have used the shredder for bank statements) she lied about owning the shredder, claimed to have no recollection of it, then claimed it was her parents, then claimed she brought it shortly before her arrest.
  7. Lucy Letby searched for the parents of her victims on Facebook, with a special interest in the parents of her twin victims. One search conducted Christmas Day, others on the anniversary of deaths.
  8. Lucy Letby falsified documents, made false notes in her victims medical records, later beginning to document a false gradual decline wanting to show that her victims were poorly so that their collapse wasn’t as sudden unexpected or suspicion. She altered times, made up phone calls to registrars and falsely claimed doctors had reviewed her victims. She claimed a doctor had advised her to omit baby E’s feed - they hadn’t.
  9. Whenever Lucy Letby wasn’t on shift, no suspicious collapses or deaths occurred. She would go away on holiday and the unit would be calm. She returned as she said ‘back with a bang lol’ and attacked 2 babies within 24 hours back to back. A 3rd baby collapsed the following day although no verdict was reached on this charge.
  10. Dr J witnessed LL standing over baby K as she deteriorated whilst she did nothing - LL wasn’t convicted of this attack however in the grand scheme of things it is more likely than not that Dr J was telling the truth about this incident.
  11. Baby E’s mother arrived at 9pm to find her son screaming and bleeding. Lucy Letby told her to go away ‘trust me I’m a nurse’. This was the last time Baby E’s mother saw her son before she saw medics battling to save him. Lucy Letby denies this incident ever happened. Baby E was due a feed at 9pm, his mother brought milk down for this feed. Lucy letby claims she was told by a registrar to omit this feed. The registrar says this conversation never happened.
  12. Lucy Letby made a comment to a colleague about baby P ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he?’ The same day that baby P collapsed and died.
  13. Lucy Letby after realising that consultants were complaining about her suddenly filed a Datix report about baby P’s death - in it she mentioned an open port putting baby P at a ‘risk of air embolism’ - she also made a similar comment to a colleague.
  14. LL sent a sympathy card to the parents of one of her victims, she photographed one set of twin victims without parents permission. She obsessed over the babies that would go on to collapse or die texting colleagues when not even on shift, wanting updates and seemingly revelling in all the drama on the unit.
  15. LL wrote confession notes which demonstrated her desire to be perceived as a victim. ‘Not good enough’ ‘I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them’ ‘I am evil I did this’. In there notes she mentioned those she believed had wronged her in some way, her victim mentality was evident. ‘I don’t deserve Mum & Dad Tom & Matt’ ‘I will never have children or marry’
  16. LL lacked empathy on every level, the only person she felt sympathy for was herself. She only shed a tear when she heard the voice of her married ex lover, when she saw pictures of her bedroom or when her cats were mentioned. She showed no emotion while parents and colleagues discussed the desperate attempts to save tiny babies, the spreading rash and discolouration, inflated tummies, horrific screaming, parents describing holding their babies in their arms as they took their last breaths. LL made inappropriate comments to parents and colleagues saying to parents ‘you’ve had long enough put him in here now’ when their baby hadn’t yet passed away. She had to be told to stop going in and bothering grieving parents. She cheerfully described how she’d given her victim their first bath. She washed and dressed her victims and took their hand and foot prints for memory boxes
  17. Lucy Letby lied to police, changed her story, admitted to lying. Lied on the stand. Couldn’t recall anything that could have painted her in a bad light but recalled details that made her look innocent.
  18. Lucy Letby loved the pampering and attention she received from her married boyfriend. He showered her with compliments and even said he would trust her with his own children. This inflated her ego almost to bursting point and made her believe she had everyone fooled enough to attempt 3 murders within 3 days.
  19. Lucy Letby threw her colleagues under the bus one by one, it was always someone else’s fault and never her own. She refused to admit to any wrongdoing or making any mistakes, even when she claimed to not recall events, she knew she hadn’t made any errors.
  20. Lucy Letby demonstrated her victim mentality further, claiming to have PTSD from being arrested ‘in her pyjamas’ which NJ found wasnt true. She clung into a comfort blanket and stress toy on the stand and discussed her traumatic experience. All infront of parents who had lost their babies, had witnessed their children being resuscitated, had to bury their babies, had considered ending their own lives, had their relationships and family torn apart, these parents were truly traumatised. Yet Letby considered herself a victim and put on a sorry display of universal victim mentality as she sat with her comfort blanket like the only person in that court room who had been traumatised with absolutely no regard for the parents of the tiny babies killed.
  21. Lucy Letby refused to attend her sentencing, instead cowardly sitting in her cell pretending it wasn’t happening. Relishing in exercising the last element of control she had left. Denying her victims parents the chance to look in her eyes and tell her the horror she has brought upon their lives and how much she has stolen away from them with her evil actions.
My opinion is that Lucy Letby is an evil, psychopathic narcissist with a serious lack of empathy, an inflated sense of superiority, an excessive need for admiration, a sadistic woman who thrived in inflicting pain on others whilst operating under the guise of someone who cared. She has been convicted and is now a serial child killer serving 14 whole life orders. She will never be released to inflict such terror upon anyone else and the points above are only a small portion of what convicted her. This is without getting into the specifics of each case, the evidence here is overwhelming.
 
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Blondiexoxo said:
  1. Lucy Letby was on shift for all 22 incidents of collapse/death - not much in and of itself right?​
  2. Collapses only happened at night, while LL was on night shifts. Once LL was moved to day shifts, the collapses followed her there. And once she was removed from the unit completely, lo and behold they stopped.
  3. Lucy Letby had opportunity. She was in some cases witnessed being the last person near these babies before they collapsed. She didn’t require long to inject air into her victims. A few seconds would have been enough.
  4. Lucy Letby didn’t like not being allocated babies in room 1. This is where the itu babies were. In the case of baby C she moaned to a co worker about not being designated a room 1 baby just 6 minutes before baby C collapsed and died
  5. Lucy Letby was found with 257 handover sheets in her home, relating to many of the victims. Handover sheets that should never have left the hospital. And certainly should not have been stashed in bags for life or boxes marked ‘KEEP’
  6. Lucy Letby owned a shredder that she could have used to shred these personal documents but didn’t (even though she claims to have used the shredder for bank statements) she lied about owning the shredder, claimed to have no recollection of it, then claimed it was her parents, then claimed she brought it shortly before her arrest.
  7. Lucy Letby searched for the parents of her victims on Facebook, with a special interest in the parents of her twin victims. One search conducted Christmas Day, others on the anniversary of deaths.
  8. Lucy Letby falsified documents, made false notes in her victims medical records, later beginning to document a false gradual decline wanting to show that her victims were poorly so that their collapse wasn’t as sudden unexpected or suspicion. She altered times, made up phone calls to registrars and falsely claimed doctors had reviewed her victims. She claimed a doctor had advised her to omit baby E’s feed - they hadn’t.
  9. Whenever Lucy Letby wasn’t on shift, no suspicious collapses or deaths occurred. She would go away on holiday and the unit would be calm. She returned as she said ‘back with a bang lol’ and attacked 2 babies within 24 hours back to back. A 3rd baby collapsed the following day although no verdict was reached on this charge.
  10. Dr J witnessed LL standing over baby K as she deteriorated whilst she did nothing - LL wasn’t convicted of this attack however in the grand scheme of things it is more likely than not that Dr J was telling the truth about this incident.
  11. Baby E’s mother arrived at 9pm to find her son screaming and bleeding. Lucy Letby told her to go away ‘trust me I’m a nurse’. This was the last time Baby E’s mother saw her son before she saw medics battling to save him. Lucy Letby denies this incident ever happened. Baby E was due a feed at 9pm, his mother brought milk down for this feed. Lucy letby claims she was told by a registrar to omit this feed. The registrar says this conversation never happened.
  12. Lucy Letby made a comment to a colleague about baby O ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he?’ The same day that baby P collapsed and died.
  13. Lucy Letby after realising that consultants were complaining about her suddenly filed a Datix report about baby P’s death - in it she mentioned an open port putting baby P at a ‘risk of air embolism’ - she also made a similar comment to a colleague.
  14. LL sent a sympathy card to the parents of one of her victims, she photographed one set of twin victims without parents permission. She obsessed over the babies that would go on to collapse or die texting colleagues when not even on shift, wanting updates and seemingly revelling in all the drama on the unit.
  15. LL wrote confession notes which demonstrated her desire to be perceived as a victim. ‘Not good enough’ ‘I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them’ ‘I am evil I did this’. In there notes she mentioned those she believed had wronged her in some way, her victim mentality was evident. ‘I don’t deserve Mum & Dad Tom & Matt’ ‘I will never have children or marry’
  16. LL lacked empathy on every level, the only person she felt sympathy for was herself. She only shed a tear when she heard the voice of her married ex lover, when she saw pictures of her bedroom or when her cats were mentioned. She showed no emotion while parents and colleagues discussed the desperate attempts to save tiny babies, the spreading rash and discolouration, inflated tummies, horrific screaming, parents describing holding their babies in their arms as they took their last breaths. LL made inappropriate comments to parents and colleagues saying to parents ‘you’ve had long enough put him in here now’ when their baby hadn’t yet passed away. She had to be told to stop going in and bothering grieving parents. She cheerfully described how she’d given her victim their first bath. She washed and dressed her victims and took their hand and foot prints for memory boxes
  17. Lucy Letby lied to police, changed her story, admitted to lying. Lied on the stand. Couldn’t recall anything that could have painted her in a bad light but recalled details that made her look innocent.
  18. Lucy Letby loved the pampering and attention she received from her married boyfriend. He showered her with compliments and even said he would trust her with his own children. This inflated her ego almost to bursting point and made her believe she had everyone fooled enough to attempt 3 murders within 3 days.
  19. Lucy Letby threw her colleagues under the bus one by one, it was always someone else’s fault and never her own. She refused to admit to any wrongdoing or making any mistakes, even when she claimed to not recall events, she knew she hadn’t made any errors.
  20. Lucy Letby demonstrated her victim mentality further, claiming to have PTSD from being arrested ‘in her pyjamas’ which NJ found wasnt true. She clung into a comfort blanket and stress toy on the stand and discussed her traumatic experience. All infront of parents who had lost their babies, had witnessed their children being resuscitated, had to bury their babies, had considered ending their own lives, had their relationships and family torn apart, these parents were truly traumatised. Yet Letby considered herself a victim and put on a sorry display of universal victim mentality as she sat with her comfort blanket like the only person in that court room who had been traumatised with absolutely no regard for the parents of the tiny babies killed.
  21. Lucy Letby refused to attend her sentencing, instead cowardly sitting in her cell pretending it wasn’t happening. Relishing in exercising the last element of control she had left. Denying her victims parents the chance to look in her eyes and tell her the horror she has brought upon their lives and how much she has stolen away from them with her evil actions.
My opinion is that Lucy Letby is an evil, psychopathic narcissist with a serious lack of empathy, an inflated sense of superiority, an excessive need for admiration, a sadistic woman who thrived in inflicting pain on others whilst operating under the guise of someone who cared. She has been convicted and is now a serial child killer serving 14 whole life orders. She will never be released to inflict such terror upon anyone else and the points above are only a small portion of what convicted her. This is without getting into the specifics of each case, the evidence here is overwhelming.
Click to expand...
Excellent post, but you might need to edit point nine to adhere to sub judice re: baby Q, since that charge was returned no verdict.

MOO
 
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Kemug said:
I was a teenager and young woman in a different place and time - but still. When I look at those photos of a young Lucy and her friends out having fun, it strikes me as a bit odd. It's all girls - where are the guys? Before young people start pairing off, in my experience they go out socialising in mixed groups. Especially church young people, which Lucy was. But this was all girls. Were all these girls together because they were similar in many ways? Perhaps all a bit shy, a bit immature, not particularly popular with boys? Them against the world? So now they are closing ranks to support one of their own, and maybe aren't mature enough to see LL as she truly is? Just an idea.
Click to expand...
My guess is that the girls prefer to be with the girls, especially LL...as Jerry S. from Seinfeld would say, "Not that there is anything wrong with that".
imo, complete speculation.
 
iamshadow21 said:
Excellent post, but you might need to edit point nine to adhere to sub judice re: baby Q, since that charge was returned no verdict.

MOO
Click to expand...
Thank you I’ve changed it! I do hope she is retried on the charges that no verdict was reached for. It’s such a shame that these parents could not speak to the court on Monday after enduring the trauma of this trial. Though the no verdict charges IMO show that the jury really gave each case serious thought and didn’t just assume that because she was guilty of one she was guilty of all
MOO
 
Blondiexoxo said:
Thank you I’ve changed it! I do hope she is retried on the charges that no verdict was reached for. It’s such a shame that these parents could not speak to the court on Monday after enduring the trauma of this trial. Though the no verdict charges IMO show that the jury really gave each case serious thought and didn’t just assume that because she was guilty of one she was guilty of all
MOO
Click to expand...
And I've edited the quote of your post in mine so that the previous version of point nine in your post has been replaced by the new version.

I think it's possible she will be retried on some, probably on the cases without a verdict one way or the other. I think the babies where, for example, she was found guilty on one charge and no verdict on another will probably not be retried, because she has already received a whole life order for attacking that child.

MOO
 
iamshadow21 said:
And I've edited the quote of your post in mine so that the previous version of point nine in your post has been replaced by the new version.

I think it's possible she will be retried on some, probably on the cases without a verdict one way or the other. I think the babies where, for example, she was found guilty on one charge and no verdict on another will probably not be retried, because she has already received a whole life order for attacking that child.

MOO
Click to expand...
Would it be considered in the public interest to do so ?
 
Davieson said:
Would it be considered in the public interest to do so ?
Click to expand...
I think that both the families and LL herself are entitled to a verdict one way or the other. And the public has the desire to see justice done. Leaving the question open satisfies nobody.

Unless by 'public interest' you mean 'money'. And I can only speak for myself on that, but I would be fine with my taxes being spent on a trial concerning the unexplained deaths and collapses of vulnerable infants.

MOO
 
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