GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[LadyL]

IMO the murders had little to do with her feelings about the premies themselves, other than they were the available, convenient route to hurting the parents.

I’d really love to know if she chose Nursing intending to murder babies and relish the parents’ grief or if something triggered her after she started working with them.

I disagree. I think there's a thrill in hurting the most vulnerable.

 

[katydid23]

Tbh I get it. Part of me still finds it hard to believe.

Not because she's a nice young pretty nurse. Just because she's just so... Normal. They never seemed to dig up anything that looked like a red flag. Anything that suggested she'd got from nicu nurse to compulsory murder babies.

Usually people but drop a few even if only seen in hindsight the sort of personality traits that let you just do what she did tend to seep out.

Where's her escalation?

That is one main reason I think she had some underlying form of Munchausen by Proxy [now called Factitious Disorder by Proxy.]

With this disorder, there are no childhood stories about the person being a bully, or acting out cruelly, etc. In fact, they are often seen as caretakers and the type to look after others. They are known as responsible types growing up---eager to please others.

One clue though is that they may be kind of consumed with their own health concerns, and even border on being a hypochondriac. We do know she has spoken about childhood health problems, and even planned to be a nurse and spoke about her plans to care for children later in life.

 

[cottonweaver]

yes - the schoolgirl Letby was described by former HSchool friend as routinely carrying rucksack containing, basically, a First Aid kit

 

[cottonweaver]

I feel like she was treated with kid gloves during the trial (including during the sentencing) so she could never, ever come back and appeal based on biased or bad treatment during her remand/trial period. It was smart, IMO. It also takes some ammo away from the crazies out there who are still saying she's a scapegoat - not that they're really a factor at all.



I guess if their WLO ever gets reduced on appeal they still have that extra 2 years?

IDK the answer to that and in trying to find out, I found something else which I hadn't been aware of.

'According to a barrister Edward Fitzgerald, whole-life prisoners since 2014 "are in a sort of limbo. In legal theory they have the right to a review after say 25 or 30 years in the light of their progress. But in actual practice there is no recognition of this fact in any policy statement by the Secretary for Justice and no real means of knowing what it is they must do to win release even after decades in custody"

That explains why Dr David Holmes made the comment about elderly WLO-ers & issue of compassionate release cropping-up later down the line.

Life imprisonment in England and Wales - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

( IDK if it's realistic that a successful appeal only leads to a reduction. Plus even if she successfully appealed one conviction, she still has all the other life sentences)

 

[Dotta]

yes - the schoolgirl Letby was described by former HSchool friend as routinely carrying rucksack containing, basically, a First Aid kit

This is not normal.

And I say this as a teacher, who usually sees the contents of students' school bags.
And I saw many things kids/teens carry to school, but NEVER first aid kits.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

That is one main reason I think she had some underlying form of Munchausen by Proxy [now called Factitious Disorder by Proxy.]

With this disorder, there are no childhood stories about the person being a bully, or acting out cruelly, etc. In fact, they are often seen as caretakers and the type to look after others. They are known as responsible types growing up---eager to please others.

One clue though is that they may be kind of consumed with their own health concerns, and even border on being a hypochondriac. We do know she has spoken about childhood health problems, and even planned to be a nurse and spoke about her plans to care for children later in life.

Yeh I do think that’s a plausible thing for her and yes very fitting for mbp.

 

[Dotta]

"Access and attention: ​

why serial killers like Lucy Letby often work in healthcare​

One research group studied 64 female serial killers in the US between 1821 and 2008, and found nearly 40% of them worked in healthcare.

Healthcare workers have access to medications not available to others, as well as the knowledge to hide their crimes more effectively."

Access and attention: why serial killers like Lucy Letby often work in healthcare

These ‘custodial killers’ are often healthcare workers who murder helpless or dependent people in their care.

theconversation.com

 

[Marantz4250b]

Kind of off topic but not. About time this happened.

Most definitely!

In fact, it was mentioned on the news just yesterday that judges already do have the power to compel people to attend but rarely use it. This proposal just puts it on a more statutory footing, I believe.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I don’t think anything she did was particularly sly. She’s devious yes but I see no reason to assume she ever made meticulous efforts to conceal her actions. Remember if the docs had had their way she would have arrrested years before she was. Might simply be the fact she was so forthright and in managers pockets that allowed her to continue without conseqhence.

I might think she didn’t go off sick when seconded was due to her being motivated to clear her name. She can’t manipulate people at home can she? she’s out of the loop at home, at work she’s got multiple reasons to be motivated. 1, continue to try to clear name, 2. Gather informatiom, 3, manipulate the power dynamic and presence is 100% vital for that.

I think you're right in all of this, especially about her not being very meticulous in covering things up. I see very little effort to make any effort to cover anything up other than to lie and manipulate people. Having hundreds of hospital records at your home is not any attempt to go under the radar, as far as I'm concerned.

Agree with your second sentence as well - which is further reason they should have suspended her whilst they investigated her. She was only put in the Patient Safety office to get her off nursing duties because there were suspicions about her. If there were suspicions about her competence or behaviour she should have been off the premises altogether.

 

[Marantz4250b]

But showing up to work was an attempt to continue to exert influence and control to me. In terms of how she saw it playing out, she could not help herself but keep killing children and I don’t know if she had fully appreciated if the Little Miss Innocent, I care about babies, my parents and friends think butter wouldn’t melt etc act would eventually play itself out. The attention and high from hurting children was all-important even as it massively increased the risk of detection. Just IMO.

I think it definitely was.

A similar but kind of opposite situation; I know a few people who work for banks. When they take annual leave they are required to take it in blocks - I think of at least a week at a time. They can't use up their annual leave as a series of one or two days here and there. This, obviously, is so that if they are running any sort of scam or manipulation of financial systems they are far less likely to be able to continue to do so, and are far more likely to be discovered, if they have no influence over things for many days.

Similarly, if you suspect that a nurse is harming patients then you really need to have them off the premises so that they can't continue to manipulate events.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It'd be interesting to hear from friends of LL what she was like after a few drinks. Did an alter ego come out, etc.?

It's been more than five years since her arrest and the trial is well over. In my opinion if the papers haven't found anyone with anything bad to say about her in the period then they probably aren't going to. Anyone who comes forward now with tales of bad behavior by LL should be treated with huge suspicion, I think.

For what it's worth, I don't think she was ever a big drinker - I mean like falling down drunk. The video which came out a few days ago showing their "Night of Hell" didn't show LL drunk as a skunk, as far as I could see. She was mostly looking after her friend (the one in the documentary) who clearly plastered.

That behaviour is consistent with the reports of her being the "mother" of the group taking care of the wilder ones, IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

partial transcript -

Michael Buchanan: This is the story of an NHS Trust that didn’t properly investigate why 13 babies died unexpectedly in a one-year period. Instead it turned against the very people who wanted the police to examine the deaths. […]

The first three babies died in June 2015. The executive team held a meeting at which it was agreed that an external investigation into the deaths would be held. It never happened.

By October, with seven babies now dead, a staff analysis of the incidents made a link between all the deaths and Lucy Letby being on shift, but it was still seen as coincidental.

In February 2016 with 10 babies now dead, the Director of Nursing, Alison Kelly, and Ian Harvey, the Medical Director, were asked for an urgent meeting to discuss the deaths and Lucy Letby’s links to all of them. They didn’t respond for three months. [...]

In June 2016, two babies died on consecutive days. 13 children had now died. Lucy Letby was on shift for all of them.

---

My schedule of convictions - showing seven deaths highlighted


8 Jun 2015 - Twin A - murder - boy - night – room 1 - designated
10 Jun 2015 - Twin B - attempted murder – girl - night – room 1 – Anon 5 mentor designated – LL room 3
14 Jun 2015 - C - murder – boy - night – room 1 – Sophie Ellis designated – LL room 3
22 Jun 2015 - D - murder - girl- night – room 1 – Caroline Oakley designated – LL room 1
4 Aug 2015 - Twin E - murder - boy - night – room 1 - designated
5 Aug 2015 - Twin F - attempted murder - boy - night – room 2 – Anon 5 mentor designated – LL room 2
7 Sep 2015 - G - attempted murder – girl - night – room 2 - Anon 4 designated – LL room 1
21 Sep 2015 - G - attempted murder - day - room 4 - designated
23 Oct 2015 - I - murder - night – room 1 – Ashleigh Hudson designated – LL room 3
9 Apr 2016 - Twin L - attempted murder – boy - day – room 1 – Mary Griffith designated – LL room 1
9 Apr 2016 - Twin M - attempted murder – boy - day – room 1 – Mary Griffith designated – LL room 1
3 Jun 2016 - N - attempted murder – boy - night – room 1 – Christopher Booth designated – LL room 4
23 Jun 2016 - Triplet O - murder - boy - day – room 2 - designated
24 Jun 2016 - Triplet P - murder – boy - day – room 2 - designated – but care transferred – non-designated

 

[Marantz4250b]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1696931250001351108

It absolutely confounds me as to why politicians time and time again announce that something will be something when it clearly should be something else and that they are obviously going to have to do a U-turn on it later!

 

[Officer Dibble]

yes - the schoolgirl Letby was described by former HSchool friend as routinely carrying rucksack containing, basically, a First Aid kit

I forgot that. We heard that recently.

 

[Marantz4250b]

If they're already serving life, they could get an extra 2 years tacked on? Huh?

It's because "Life" is the statutory sentence for murder. When you get life the judge sets the minimum term that you spend in custody before you can apply for parole based on the starting points in law which range from 15 years to a Whole Life Order. So, if you are given 25 years minimum then it could be increased to 27 years minimum. If paroled you are on "Life Licence" and can be recalled to prison is you breech the terms of your licence.

Obviously, not much point if you have a WLO as you can never apply for parole.

 

[Marantz4250b]

IDK the answer to that and in trying to find out, I found something else which I hadn't been aware of.

'According to a barrister Edward Fitzgerald, whole-life prisoners since 2014 "are in a sort of limbo. In legal theory they have the right to a review after say 25 or 30 years in the light of their progress. But in actual practice there is no recognition of this fact in any policy statement by the Secretary for Justice and no real means of knowing what it is they must do to win release even after decades in custody"

That explains why Dr David Holmes made the comment about elderly WLO-ers & issue of compassionate release cropping-up later down the line.

Life imprisonment in England and Wales - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

( IDK if it's realistic that a successful appeal only leads to a reduction. Plus even if she successfully appealed one conviction, she still has all the other life sentences)

The way I understood this was that it wasn't an appeal against the WLO order still being appropriate, as such, but whether it was justified in the first place. If that makes sense?

Anyway, I don't think it's an actual appeal based on "good behaviour" or similar.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think it definitely was.

A similar but kind of opposite situation; I know a few people who work for banks. When they take annual leave they are required to take it in blocks - I think of at least a week at a time. They can't use up their annual leave as a series of one or two days here and there. This, obviously, is so that if they are running any sort of scam or manipulation of financial systems they are far less likely to be able to continue to do so, and are far more likely to be discovered, if they have no influence over things for many days.

Similarly, if you suspect that a nurse is harming patients then you really need to have them off the premises so that they can't continue to manipulate events.

On your last point, I heard Former Superintendant of the Met say that he was stunned that a person suspended from a ward pending investigation was then placed into a department where suspect has any access to patient records at all. ( Name of ex Super is Dal Babu)

imo Bound to crop up in Inquiry. Indefensible.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think you're right in all of this, especially about her not being very meticulous in covering things up. I see very little effort to make any effort to cover anything up other than to lie and manipulate people. Having hundreds of hospital records at your home is not any attempt to go under the radar, as far as I'm concerned.

Agree with your second sentence as well - which is further reason they should have suspended her whilst they investigated her. She was only put in the Patient Safety office to get her off nursing duties because there were suspicions about her. If there were suspicions about her competence or behaviour she should have been off the premises altogether.

I dont think I’ve seen anything that made me think she had made any particular effort to really hide her association with anything. She’s obviously not that good at it she didn’t even try and make it look like it was someone else’s fault Oldest trick in the book. She had more than ample opportunity to get rid of anything at home but nada.

 

[Dotta]

Arrogant, demented and maniacal serial killers are usually detached from reality.

They live in their own world of madness.

They only superficially resemble normal people.

JMO

 

[Knitty]

This thread is closed. Please continue at Thread #34