GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[iamshadow21]

Could it be that Doc X was her source of ' narcissistic supply?
She definitely wanted his attention and his presence in the room during the emergencies.
She wanted his praise and affirmation, as well as others ( Lucy is so good in a crisis etc)

Most everybody seems to agree that she exhibits narcissism, some might even think that is part of a personality disorder she has. IDK about that but the definition is here:

narcissistic supply is a pathological or excessive need for attention or admiration...
Fenichel highlighted the narcissistic need in early development for supplies to enable young children to maintain a sense of mental equilibrium.
He identified two main strategies for obtaining such narcissistic supplies—aggression and ingratiation—contrasting styles of approach which could later develop into the sadistic and the submissive respectively...

Psychoanalyst Otto Kernberg considered the malignant narcissistic criminal to be coldly characterised by a disregard of others unless they could be idealised as sources of narcissistic supply...

Heinz Kohut saw those with narcissistic personality disorder as disintegrating mentally when cut off from a regular source of narcissistic supply.'

Narcissistic supply - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She breaks down when he testifies, tries to flee the dock.
She uses the word Love in her jottings. It's not credible that she understood what love truly means.

She writes the names of her other sources of validation & supply in the jottings, over and over. Karen Rees, Kathryn de Bergarac. 'Doc X' etc Love. Love and hearts.
She claimed they were ' just doodles' I don't think so


What she told Ben Myers KC about those notes:
The love hearts are "just doodling".
Various names including a doctor, Karen Rees - "director of nursing", Minna,
"They were important people to me at that time - they were the main people I could talk to."
Also written is "I can't do this any more"
Letby said she was "fighting for my life, my job"
Also written is "HELP ME" and "Please help
"Please help me [doctor] LOVE PLEASE HELP ME [doctor] You were my best friend [doctor]."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, May 17 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

images of the meltdown notes / 'doodles' 'Scribbled notes are the only glimpse into Lucy Letby's twisted mind'

I think it's been very clear that she didn't just have one, she had many. Him, other nurses, probably her friends and parents. Her conversations on messenger imply she picks them up then puts them down and switches to someone else when she doesn't get what she wants. Someone refusing to engage her and supply what she wants in the aftermath of a death gets gaslit that they're being a bad friend, 'not much team spirit' etc. Always someone she can hit up for a fix.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

When we first saw the messages I pondered whether he was more like a father/parental substitute to her. Constantly asking if she was OK (which would have irritated the hell out of me), offering her a lift home, buying her little treats, telling her how great she was.

On the other hand to her, he was also (like Dr Ventress before him) providing her with valuable feedback about what the doctors were making of the collapses, as well as being somebody she could "trauma bond" with and then relive the deaths and near deaths with afterwards!

Ugh! Trauma bond . Very plausible. Also someone to share it with afterwards. (Re feedback. Her manipulation is also something to behold in other text exchanges, how she subtly tries to get info out of colleagues)

'It was the prosecution’s claim that she had attacked babies because she enjoyed the drama of being in a crisis situation with him.'

When she tells Myers KC that the atmosphere after a baby death is ' flat', I am convinced that she is disappointed that other colleagues are not sharing the adrenaline high she's just received. ( She quickly adds on a more acceptable response to Myers - it's devastating, you want to save.)

Asked about what the atmosphere is like when a baby dies on the unit, Letby tells the court: "It's completely flat, there is a complete change in atmosphere...to me personally, it's devastating, you want to save every baby in your care.

"You're not supposed...to watch a baby die."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, May 17 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Plus the evidence from consultant Ravi was she seemed transfixed watching a baby die/suffer.
You're not supposed ...to enjoy watching... ( LL missed a word)

 

[cottonweaver]

re manipulation & feedback


If I'd been a doc on the receiving end of this I don't think I would have picked up on what she's doing. With the benefit of hindsight it all becomes clearer
IDK which doc this is, don't think it's the Registrar

Text messages between Letby and a doctor from June 30-July 1, 2016 are shown to the court, concerning the liver injury.
Letby recalls a colleague being "very upset" and "was crying" at what had happened.
The doctor had messaged: "I'm not sure where the information has come from.
"It seems that on the SHO grapevine somebody at LWH has said that one of the triplets was found to have a ruptured Liver.
"[Colleague] was upset that this may have been caused by her chest compressions."

Letby: "Oh no, that's awful.
"No wonder she's upset. Were you able to reassure her?"
The doctor replied: "We spent 20 mins in a cubicle going over everything.
The CPR was all at the 5th rib space - between the nipples.The duoderm on [Child O] was high.If there was anything it will have been due to fluid volume causing Liver distension."I'm not sure I believe it.
"It was a coroners pm."It usually takes weeks to get any report."

Letby: "It seems a bit like a rumour mill has gone into overdrive - the boys were only returned today, can't see how info would be out that quick?"
Doctor: "No me neither."

Letby: "Not nice for [colleague] though, can see how it would play on her mind."

Doctor: "This has come at the end of a 7 day run for her. Not a good time."

Letby: "No. It's good that she felt able to tell you"

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, May 17 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

@iamshadow21 Do you have a rough idea when these Messenger messages were presented at trial so that I can find them?

 

[dotr]

Wow re the coloured asterisks. Speechless.

Lucy Letby used 'colour coded system' to track how she was killing babies in hospital

Lucy Letby made plenty of notes about her mindset in relation to her horrific crimes which formed a major part of the police investigation before she was convicted of murdering seven babies

www.mirror.co.uk

rbbm

Letby's notes detail her mindset ( Image: PA)

''DI Woods added: "We knew she was a copious writer of notes. Now we thought that perhaps having been arrested she might stop doing that," he added. "It turned out when we searched that second time, she had continued to write her thoughts and all sorts of processes about the investigation about the events that she was being investigated for."

'' There is no evidence here of a mental illness so serious that it might reduce Letby's criminal culpability. What does leap out at me are the expressions of self-hatred, guilt, shame and self-loathing, along with a low self-confidence – what psychiatrists call 'negative cognitions'." He added that Letby is a "remorseless killer" though this doesn't mean she has all the typical traits of a psychopath. "Her true motivations, I believe, are power, control and the thrill of being around the grieving process."

''However, he says Letby is the "most extraordinary and unique clinical case I have encountered" with nothing in her past appearing to be particularly strange. He fears we'll never fully understand her, partly because she will remain in prison and so never receive the psychiatric support which could lead to an epiphany''.

 

[iamshadow21]

re manipulation & feedback

If I'd been a doc on the receiving end of this I don't think I would have picked up on what she's doing. With the benefit of hindsight it all becomes clearer
IDK which doc this is, don't think it's the Registrar

Text messages between Letby and a doctor from June 30-July 1, 2016 are shown to the court, concerning the liver injury.
Letby recalls a colleague being "very upset" and "was crying" at what had happened.
The doctor had messaged: "I'm not sure where the information has come from.
"It seems that on the SHO grapevine somebody at LWH has said that one of the triplets was found to have a ruptured Liver.
"[Colleague] was upset that this may have been caused by her chest compressions."

Letby: "Oh no, that's awful.
"No wonder she's upset. Were you able to reassure her?"
The doctor replied: "We spent 20 mins in a cubicle going over everything.
The CPR was all at the 5th rib space - between the nipples.The duoderm on [Child O] was high.If there was anything it will have been due to fluid volume causing Liver distension."I'm not sure I believe it.
"It was a coroners pm."It usually takes weeks to get any report."

Letby: "It seems a bit like a rumour mill has gone into overdrive - the boys were only returned today, can't see how info would be out that quick?"
Doctor: "No me neither."

Letby: "Not nice for [colleague] though, can see how it would play on her mind."

Doctor: "This has come at the end of a 7 day run for her. Not a good time."

Letby: "No. It's good that she felt able to tell you"

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, May 17 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

@iamshadow21 Do you have a rough idea when these Messenger messages were presented at trial so that I can find them?

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #21

Looks like she's texting in the nurseries again. Unless she took time for a break.

www.websleuths.com

 

[ColourPurple]

''However, he says Letby is "the "most extraordinary and unique clinical case I have encountered" with nothing in her past appearing to be particularly strange. He fears we'll never fully understand her, partly because she will remain in prison and so never receive the psychiatric support which could lead to an epiphany''.

My first thought was well she'll love that he called her extraordinary and unique! But then maybe he's being clever and knows that flattery is the most likely way to get her to talk... not that I think she ever will!

 

[dotr]

re -fresher

The text messages Lucy Letby sent as she murdered babies

Messages on Letby's phone show her trying to win sympathy or deflect blame after murdering babies.

www.bbc.com

''13 June 2015: Five days after Baby A's murder, and the day before she kills Baby C, Letby has an irritable exchange with a colleague over her manager's refusal to let her go back to work in intensive care.
She says when she worked at Liverpool Women's Hospital, she found she needed to go straight back and care for another baby "otherwise the image of the one you lost never goes".

The colleague disagrees, telling her to take a break:
Colleague: I agree with her don't think it will help. You need a break from full on ITU... It sounds very odd and I would be complete opposite.
[…]
Letby: Forget i said anything, I'll be fine, It's part of the job just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight X
The conversation continues into the evening, until 23:09 when Letby signs off saying "Sleep well xx".
Six minutes later, Baby C falls critically ill.

Letby had been assigned to a child elsewhere in the unit, but that night she enters the nursery where Baby C is and feeds air into his stomach through a nasogastric tube, causing his collapse.''

Lucy Letby: Nurse 'commended' for work during 'stressful situation'

TEXT messages recovered from Lucy Letby's phone show the baby murder-accused nurse was commended for her "hard work" during a busy time at…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

''Letby messages a colleague, who cannot be named, asking her how she should reply. The conversation alludes to a disagreement among the neonatal unit staff regarding a Christening for one of the babies in the unit.

Letby responds to Ms Griffiths: "Thank you. That's really nice to hear as I gather you are aware of some of the not so positive comments that have been made recently regarding my role which I have found quite upsetting.

"Our job is a pleasure to do & just hope I do the best for the babies & their Family. Thank you to you & [another colleague] for your support X".


Letby messages her colleague: "Im still frustrated/upset with what's gone on but don't think such rubbish nights & being tired help"

Her colleague responds: "Good reply as it's important they know about the bitchiness which is all it is. Yes re tired..."

The colleague added: "Anyway. You're a star. You e done yourself proud. You've given positive memories to the family whatever the outcome. Let's hope they can tease her in a few yrs about her 'attention seeking' ways. Sleep well. Xx

"Always a pleasure to work with you even if we're a '[s***] magnet' team".

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Every person LL had managed to manipulate were part of her narcisstic supply. Those who didn’t feed her or were just indifferent towards her caused her narcissistic injury.

Take baby C for example- messages with colleague about not being allowed back in room 1 even though she thinks it would be helpful to see another baby in there. Colleague doesn’t agree that it’s a good idea. She doesn’t really understand why seeing another baby where baby A was would be helpful. LL tells her to forget she said anything. LL’s ego is bruised, she is angry, colleague has not fed her need for admiration, attention and sympathy. LL then goes and murders child C only minutes after this exchange

The opposite is also true though, when LL is supplied with attention, admiration and sympathy, her ego becomes inflated, she feels superior, special and above suspicion. With doc choc, he was feeding her narcissism with constant compliments. LL felt untouchable and murdered baby O and P less than 24 hours apart.

Someone like LL is very dangerous, if you are indifferent towards her and refuse to feed her you anger her, you bruise her ego and she bubbles with rage. When you feed her and shower her with compliments she feels so invincible that she craves more and more. She needs a never ending supply, and the way she got it was through murdering babies. When her supply was running low she murdered babies. When she had attention and admiration she still murdered babies because she craved more. Like a drug addict needing fix after fix.

I wonder if being 100 miles away from her parents meant she craved attention she couldn’t get from them not living close by so they could pamper and coo over her.

All MOO

 

[kittythehare]

Lucy Letby used 'colour coded system' to track how she was killing babies in hospital

Lucy Letby made plenty of notes about her mindset in relation to her horrific crimes which formed a major part of the police investigation before she was convicted of murdering seven babies

www.mirror.co.uk

rbbm
View attachment 442567
Letby's notes detail her mindset ( Image: PA)

''DI Woods added: "We knew she was a copious writer of notes. Now we thought that perhaps having been arrested she might stop doing that," he added. "It turned out when we searched that second time, she had continued to write her thoughts and all sorts of processes about the investigation about the events that she was being investigated for."

'' There is no evidence here of a mental illness so serious that it might reduce Letby's criminal culpability. What does leap out at me are the expressions of self-hatred, guilt, shame and self-loathing, along with a low self-confidence – what psychiatrists call 'negative cognitions'." He added that Letby is a "remorseless killer" though this doesn't mean she has all the typical traits of a psychopath. "Her true motivations, I believe, are power, control and the thrill of being around the grieving process."

''However, he says Letby is the "most extraordinary and unique clinical case I have encountered" with nothing in her past appearing to be particularly strange. He fears we'll never fully understand her, partly because she will remain in prison and so never receive the psychiatric support which could lead to an epiphany''.

I would not want to be the shrink trying to work that one out.
would be like diagnosing a switched off television.

 

[cottonweaver]

re @dotr 's last post on the first exchange

' It sounds very odd...'

You can almost see LL jump at that phrase. There's a hint of suspicion that LL is not normal. LL must have freaked out at that

'Forget i said anything, I'll be fine...'

 

[gc105]

Her father is 77 years old and her mother in her 50s from recollection. They are imho mad to chase their daughter all around the country to be closer to her as she could be moved anytime. Returning to their house in Hereford not a massively pleasant option either so they are knackered either way.

After watching the Hummingbird documentary am I correct in thinking that handover sheets found on the second search were not found on the first ?

Which documentary is this? I’ve watched the Sky News special & BBC Panorama already.

 

[iamshadow21]

re @dotr 's last post on the first exchange

' It sounds very odd...'

You can almost see LL jump at that phrase. There's a hint of suspicion that LL is not normal. LL must have freaked out at that

'Forget i said anything, I'll be fine...'

Like I said, I think her whole thing has been to pretend to be so normal it's abnormal. So if she senses she's said or done something weird, she pulls back hard and tries to distract and deflect and gaslight. She masks very well. Her life is smoke and mirrors, and 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain'.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

Which documentary is this? I’ve watched the Sky News special & BBC Panorama already.

Not really a docu , more a series of interviews but worth a listen

 

[cottonweaver]

Like I said, I think her whole thing has been to pretend to be so normal it's abnormal. So if she senses she's said or done something weird, she pulls back hard and tries to distract and deflect and gaslight. She masks very well. Her life is smoke and mirrors, and 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain'.

MOO

You were spot on.

Despite Dawn Howe telling us that everybody sticks by 'innocent' LL - as do her family - you can imagine that out there in Hereford, there's somebody more objective who knew LL as she developed - maybe a secondary school year tutor or similar - and who has seen the mask slip so many times before.

 

[kittythehare]

I think she is in low Newton for a long time. Right place for her, she’s going to be such a big name and a huge target, potentially the biggest one in the UK. In a bigger prison there would be too much risk for her. Low Newton houses mostly young people and a few category A prisoners. Her situation is much easier to manage in LN and I think her personality is probably suited to it. She probably wouldn’t survive in a bigger prison.

I actually think her parents are doing the right thing. I hope they can play a part in getting her to talk Which I think would be hugely beneficial both for her victims and society in a broader way. That’s worth the time and resources to achieve. I totally get both sides but I think sick people do sick things. There is some huge abhorrence in the mind of her. I hope the docs can pull the truth out of her at some point.

Treatment is not about obtaining the truth on behalf of a third party or any party at all.
It's not always even the best thing for the patient who is possibly locked into denial in an act of self preservation, often unconscious..

There is a line between ethical medical and psychiatric treatment that simply cannot be crossed and should never be crossed unless something like a lot of people could die imminently if the patient refused to speak but the psychiatrist had knowledge.
even that is messy enough if the patient is still alive...
not simple.

 

[cottonweaver]

This is shocking:

Q: Who was the Chair of the Countess Hospital Board during this Letby murder spree catastrophe?
A: Sir Duncan Nichol

Q: Who was ' a career hospital administrator and head of the NHS at the time of the Beverley Allitt scandal?'


According to The Sunday Times it was......

A: Sir Duncan Nichol !

Sunday Times Link:

https://archive.ph/SATKz#selection-1515.12-1515.106

Lessons from the official Allitt Inquiry- Allitt murder spree catastrophe- published 1994

https://minhalexander.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/notes-on-beverly-allitt-inquiry-3.pdf

 

[iamshadow21]

You were spot on.

Despite Dawn Howe telling us that everybody sticks by 'innocent' LL - as do her family - you can imagine that out there in Hereford, there's somebody more objective who knew LL as she developed - maybe a secondary school year tutor or similar - and who has seen the mask slip so many times before.

What I thought was interesting about Dawn is just how indoctrinated she was. She's been in Letby's orbit since she was a teenager. So doesn't question that Letby tells her flat - don't come to court. Why not? Because if Dawn sits through all that testimony, it's letting another version of events not controlled by Letby in. And she seems genuinely baffled as to why she wouldn't be able to give Letby information about her godchildren in her letters to her. She knows what the charges are! If Letby was a scoutmaster or swimming coach accused of child rape, would she be so clueless? I think she would. She's invested half her life in being Letby's friend. There's a point where people who are caught up in, say, a financial scam become aware of information that suggests they might have been had. That's the point when people often double down, invest MORE money. Tell their friends to invest theirs. Because they've invested too much by then to allow themselves to consider that it was all a lie, that they might have done something that shattered their security and prosperity. The disillusionment is too much, and the brain just goes NOPE. It's why it's so hard for people to leave cults or cultish organisations. I honestly don't know if Dawn will ever find her way out, or if in twenty years, she'll still be crusading for Letby's release. Letby will probably keep the lines of communication open. She's not going to have many narcissistic supply options open to her in seg.

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

This is shocking:

Q: Who was the Chair of the Countess Hospital Board during this Letby murder spree catastrophe?
A: Sir Duncan Nichol

Q: Who was ' a career hospital administrator and head of the NHS at the time of the Beverley Allitt scandal?'


According to The Sunday Times it was......

A: Sir Duncan Nichol !

Sunday Times Link:

https://archive.ph/SATKz#selection-1515.12-1515.106

Lessons from the official Allitt Inquiry- Allitt murder spree catastrophe- published 1994

https://minhalexander.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/notes-on-beverly-allitt-inquiry-3.pdf

Karen Rees, now Moore, could not be reached for comment but is understood to dispute the account given by Dr Brearey

 

[cottonweaver]

Karen Rees, now Moore, could not be reached for comment but is understood to dispute the account given by Dr Brearey

Yes I saw that, the nursing council are also investigating her fitness to practice too now ( will see if I can find the link)

Apologies Kitty, it's not Rees, it's Kelly who had moved to a job with Salford ( Director of Nursing Northern care Alliance NHS trust) , was suspended this week and is now referred to the nursing watchdog.

Lucy Letby’s former nursing boss referred to regulator

Alison Kelly accused in court of failing to act when doctors raised ‘serious concerns’ about the serial baby killer

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[cottonweaver]

What I thought was interesting about Dawn is just how indoctrinated she was. She's been in Letby's orbit since she was a teenager. So doesn't question that Letby tells her flat - don't come to court. Why not? Because if Dawn sits through all that testimony, it's letting another version of events not controlled by Letby in. And she seems genuinely baffled as to why she wouldn't be able to give Letby information about her godchildren in her letters to her. She knows what the charges are! If Letby was a scoutmaster or swimming coach accused of child rape, would she be so clueless? I think she would. She's invested half her life in being Letby's friend. There's a point where people who are caught up in, say, a financial scam become aware of information that suggests they might have been had. That's the point when people often double down, invest MORE money. Tell their friends to invest theirs. Because they've invested too much by then to allow themselves to consider that it was all a lie, that they might have done something that shattered their security and prosperity. The disillusionment is too much, and the brain just goes NOPE. It's why it's so hard for people to leave cults or cultish organisations. I honestly don't know if Dawn will ever find her way out, or if in twenty years, she'll still be crusading for Letby's release. Letby will probably keep the lines of communication open. She's not going to have many narcissistic supply options open to her in seg.

MOO

I agree to all -I thought that the ' none of my friends should attend court ' was very telling although the penny hasn't dropped with D and maybe never will.
LL needed dupes around her. ( You have to be somewhat naive and self-centred to imagine that announcing this on Panorama - a million viewers including possibly 100 family victims whose lives have been forever ruined - was the appropriate thing to do in August 2023. )

I have heard psychologists say that dealing with the cognitive dissonance can be painful.
Then again, have also heard them say that maintaining denialism is also very destructive long term.
Regardless of that, I'm not embarrassed to admit that I can't summon up much compassion for any of them right now- because I would have preferred that LL hadn't forced a trial on the families and the 4 year(?) agonising wait to conclusion.

re your last line in bold.
Once LL gets out of segregation, she's going to have to cope with inmates like Dennehey. Apparently, Dennehey is, ' a self-confessed 'fully committed psychopath. ' Can you imagine the scenes, potentially?
LL still being in denial and claiming innocence while being goaded to admit what you are by your fellow inmate? Lucy Letby set to be locked up with notorious criminals in Low Newton