I don't think it was ever tested for anything other than what was found in it. The blanket and book. I don't believe LE would know what clothing the Rs INTENDED to pack. As far as we know, there was no mention of clothing strewn in the area of the suitcase. I feel the suitcase was not a factor in the upcoming trips. It may or may not have been a factor in the crime. One thing- it was NOT used to climb out that window. FW admitted he was the one who moved the suitcase there when examining the glass from the broken window.
Christmas photos
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I don't think it was ever tested for anything other than what was found in it. The blanket and book. I don't believe LE would know what clothing the Rs INTENDED to pack. As far as we know, there was no mention of clothing strewn in the area of the suitcase. I feel the suitcase was not a factor in the upcoming trips. It may or may not have been a factor in the crime. One thing- it was NOT used to climb out that window. FW admitted he was the one who moved the suitcase there when examining the glass from the broken window.
Ravyn
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Since the suitcase as been brought up and looking back at the photos.And comparing the two photos,the one under the window seem to be dark brown and looks to be an older style,the one with glass seem to blue cloth material with a strap hanging from it,and looking again at the photos the one under the window don't look like it as a strape..
Ravyn
New Member
Now to me about the photo of the brain,a child head is more softer than an adults,with a fracture like JB had I believe there would be massive blood,even if with some say they believe she was hit twice,cause I remember the time my daughter about 6 was bouncing on her bed she fell and it the corner of the post and I thought while taking her to the ER I wasn't going to be able to stop the bleeding now lucky to say she never jumped on her bed again, but if the R's did have a stun gun,and I asked a county police officer this,now to say he looked at me strange but if she was stunned she wouldn't be able to fight if she was being strangled.
Camper
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Just putting together some thoughts after reading posts here.
1. Ramseys had a how-to video on use of stun guns, and explained away 'not owning one' and that they had visited a store on one of their trips that sold them etc.
2. The missing Christmas photos may in fact would have shown a 'skirmish' with the two young children about 'gifts' that were received OR an ->etc.
3. While parents were busy -> JR prepping plane, PR in basement busy doing whatever. Zowee, could have happened PRIOR to JR leaving and PR being so busy OR OR?
4. IS IT then possible that the stun gun was used during Christmas Day, ->Hence causing Jon Benet to NOT feel well and rest that afternoon. Additionally she did NOT eat at the White's party, took home 'a' plate of food for Jon Benet to have 'later'.
a. Perhaps the unseen missing photos had a rougher 'hurt' inflicted on Jon Benet (not the stun gun)
-> requiring the afternoon resting for Jon Benet.
5. Still have the problem to solve on the WHO or WHY someone looking like JAR was seen walking up to the door of the Ramsey home Christmas Day? WE donut know the time of day, OR I donut remember WHAT time of day Mr. Barnhill SAW this 'person'. I don't remember reading any report on the time of day the 'person' was seen.
Comment about my two sons in LE. They both were instructed during their LE lengthy training about WHAT a stun gun does and the use of one. MY OLDEST SON volunteered to have one used on HIM for class demonstration. HE was adamant about the pain and total debilitation caused by the gun, and the time after the use, for recovering totally. This is the son who retired from the military, and took LE training after retirement.
.
1. Ramseys had a how-to video on use of stun guns, and explained away 'not owning one' and that they had visited a store on one of their trips that sold them etc.
2. The missing Christmas photos may in fact would have shown a 'skirmish' with the two young children about 'gifts' that were received OR an ->etc.
3. While parents were busy -> JR prepping plane, PR in basement busy doing whatever. Zowee, could have happened PRIOR to JR leaving and PR being so busy OR OR?
4. IS IT then possible that the stun gun was used during Christmas Day, ->Hence causing Jon Benet to NOT feel well and rest that afternoon. Additionally she did NOT eat at the White's party, took home 'a' plate of food for Jon Benet to have 'later'.
a. Perhaps the unseen missing photos had a rougher 'hurt' inflicted on Jon Benet (not the stun gun)
-> requiring the afternoon resting for Jon Benet.
5. Still have the problem to solve on the WHO or WHY someone looking like JAR was seen walking up to the door of the Ramsey home Christmas Day? WE donut know the time of day, OR I donut remember WHAT time of day Mr. Barnhill SAW this 'person'. I don't remember reading any report on the time of day the 'person' was seen.
Comment about my two sons in LE. They both were instructed during their LE lengthy training about WHAT a stun gun does and the use of one. MY OLDEST SON volunteered to have one used on HIM for class demonstration. HE was adamant about the pain and total debilitation caused by the gun, and the time after the use, for recovering totally. This is the son who retired from the military, and took LE training after retirement.
.
claudicici
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... i am confused about the stun gun...i thought it was FACT,that those marks on jonbenet were not from a stun gun....or could they have been....
Ames
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It was NOT from a stun gun.
Sadly, any info on the stun gun is conjecture, not fact. Mayer never determined what made the "abrasions" on JBR, or if he did, he didn't put it in the report. JR refused to agree to an exhumation of the body to finally try to determine stun gun use. And Hunter refused to get a court order for an exhumation. At this point, it is doubtful that any testing would be useful. She's been 12 years in an Atlanta grave.
Ravyn
New Member
Ok, confused once again, have anyone read The R's book cause they bring up the evidence they wanted reexamined and a stun gun was brought up.
Camper
New Member
--->>>Thank you for confirming the not fact part about the stun gun. In working on this case for 6 + straight years living, eating, breathing, sleeping and totally consumed by IT through 3 major Websleuths crashes that lost all threads. Plus being light on my posting through my life or death triple by pass heart operation for 4 months in 1999, my recollection was that it was not proven or printed, in any official written reports. Plus the fact that the R's would not disturb the tiny girls grave site to substantiate the use of a stun gun.
We discussed here at WS, the possibility that the marks were caused by Patsys, single large solitaire diamond ring, the young brothers wood burning tools, and lived through ol whats his name Lou Smit (a fine detective by his previous case records) and his using a stun gun on a pig to prove after the fact that a stun gun (as reported by one of the rag weekly magazines) was not used cuz' no marks like that were left on the 'pig'.
So lets just go with my current thoughts that 'something' had to have happened Christmas morning to perhaps injure JonBenet and cause some bed rest Christmas afternoon, and spoil her appetite at the White's party, hence no years long 'traditional' Christmas morning photos. I do like my thoughts about this thought.
Little girls like to hang together at parties with their 'best' little friend, I am now wondering IF the Whites daughter had refreshment at the White's party, and would the two little girls have gone to get some food together, OR were the two of them so involved with the beading kits they did not answer the call for Christmas food at the same time. WE would have known this by now, one would think, IF there had been pictures displayed of the White's party.
My little 6 year old grand daughter hangs like glue to her 6 year old cousin at family festivities, doing 'stuff' together.
We will have varying numbers of people at our family get to gethers, most times around 20 or so up to 30 people. There are always two to four guests with cameras priorr to having digital cameras these days and phone cams, shooting pictures from every direction.
Would be great IF one of the White's guests would come forward with Pictures, and approach perhaps the Enquirer Hmmm, with some concrete pictorial coverage of Christmas at the White's 1996.
Wonder IF those (if any) ever found their way into the evidence stash of LE OR the Whites pictures either?
?
.
Maikai
New Member
John Meyer noted the "abrasions" but did not know they were stun gun marks. There was another case in Denver where the Doberson, the medical examiner missed stun gun marks. It was only when the police found a stun gun in the trunk of a suspect's car that the body was exhumed, and Doberson did further research and testing and determined that the "abrasions" he called out were in fact from the stun gun.
Lou Smit contacted Doberson to look into the marks on JBR. The one on the face was almost identical to the one on Boggs in the Denver case. Doberson searched the world literature on stun gun marks, and did the experiments on pigs, and concluded that with a HIGH DEGREE OF MEDICAL CERTAINTY the marks on JBR's face and back were from a stun gun. Pigs were typically used in other medical papers on stun gun marks, because their skin is the most similar to humans. Actually, pigs are used in other studies, because their biological systems are most like humans.
John Ramsey was not against exhuming JBR's body. He said he couldn't make that call because she had been laid to rest. Steve Thomas said the police were very close in exhuming her body but decided against it due to potential negative publicity. It's not easy for an individual to exhume a body. They can't simply request it. They have to go through the courts. It was up to the police to pursue this, and they didn't do it.
Medical examiners and ER docs are generally not trained in looking for stun gun marks. There was a case in Arizona I read about on medline, where a child was stungunned by a caretaker. The article concluded that ER docs should have training to look for the marks when child abuse is suspected
I'm confident Doberson got it right, and he learned from his mistakes in the Boggs case.
Hi Camper.
Thankyou for your persererance.
It's appreciated, the dedication to JBR.
hmmm I think that's it, as you commented, "living, eating, breathing, sleeping and totally consumed by IT". by rehashing IT all these details and contradictions surface and .... well like the idea that the marks on JBR's back may not be from a taser but from the rings PR wore.
(I'll try and post that link)
no significant observation on the autopy report concerning the marks.
ya
( vintage WS) Was a stun gun used in the crime or not
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-14161.html
ya that is so true, how little girls 'hang like glue' at parties.
Why have these photos never surfaced! Photos, info, and intergrity were sold over the twelve years. pffft.
Ames
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Over at acandyrose.com there is a page of pictures that you can click on to view. One of them says..."White's Christmas Party...under construction". So, I keep hoping that one day, we will get to see them.
It's on this link...
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-ramseycase.htm
Top right square (where pictures will eventually be).
It's on this link...
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-ramseycase.htm
Top right square (where pictures will eventually be).
hey Ravyn.
The Truth ... from Forums For Justoce:
The Truth about Judge Julie Carnes' Decision.Stun Gun/Rope/Bag/Door/Lights/Knots/Bat
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4708
The Stun Gun Myth:
http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html
Wecht's autopsy findings, interpreted:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/9101/wecht.html
He also noted an abrasion to her right cheek, and one on the back of her right shoulder, which also bore a bruise. She also carried two scratches on her lower left back area and the lower back of her left leg.
The Truth ... from Forums For Justoce:
The Truth about Judge Julie Carnes' Decision.Stun Gun/Rope/Bag/Door/Lights/Knots/Bat
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4708
The Stun Gun Myth:
http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html
Wecht's autopsy findings, interpreted:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/9101/wecht.html
He also noted an abrasion to her right cheek, and one on the back of her right shoulder, which also bore a bruise. She also carried two scratches on her lower left back area and the lower back of her left leg.
Ames
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It has been like that for quite a while, I know at least a year. Guess she is just waiting for them to be released. But UNDER CONSTRUCTION leads a person to believe that she has them, she just has to get them up on the site.
Actually, my impression is that she is waiting for them to be released and then she will post them. I doubt she has them; if they exist LE surely has them. All the photos on ACR are those that have been made public. The autopsy photos, while never released by LE, are the ones that the Globe published and so they have already been made public. I've been on that site for a few years and it was still "under construction" then.
I have seen the stun gun comparison photos, and they do look similar. I am probably one of the few RDI who does not discount the stun gun. An instructional video was found in the home, and for me, that could make a connection to the case. The fact that a stun gun was never found doesn't bother me. There are many cases where a weapon was never found. In this case, the original panties were never found either. While unpleasant to think of the circumstances in which a stun gun would have been used in RDI, this was a case where I believe parents staged a strangulation on a still-alive 6-year old girl (though I hope they didn't know she was still alive) to cover up a fatal head bash. So the stun gun could fit in as well.
Lots of stuff walked out of that house. Golf bag. Winter coat pockets.....lots of places to stuff a stun gun and a small pair of panties. Let's not forget the "breakfast club" of R friends and "victim's advocates". Were they searched when they left? I'd bet they were NOT.
Lots of stuff walked out of that house. Golf bag. Winter coat pockets.....lots of places to stuff a stun gun and a small pair of panties. Let's not forget the "breakfast club" of R friends and "victim's advocates". Were they searched when they left? I'd bet they were NOT.
Ames
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The Stun Gun Manual was written in Spanish, which the Ramsey's say that they couldn't read. My question is, why in the heck did they have it if they couldn't read it. Then again, it seems that Patsy was a pack rat.
Ravyn
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Thanks Tadpole, now I read all this evaluations on PR is there one for JR. Cause in everything that is link to me I serious like to know this.Cause I read JR looked like he was about to cry when something was said about the death penalty,JAR said forgiveness for the one that done this to JBR,and PR interview with ST she said punish the one that done this,