Christmas photos

[Sophie]

Camper, the reason that Pam gave to police to get inside the Ramsey home...was that she was sent in by the Ramsey's to get clothes for JB's funeral. Patsy gave Pam a "grocery list"...of things to get...including...baby teeth, PASSPORTS, and some of JB's American Girl dolls. I will see if I can find a complete list of things that she took out when she was taken out the "funeral clothes".

Here ya go...

04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"

Page 51:

"Patrol Officer Angie Chromiak told me later that when she showed up to pull a security shift at Tin Cup circle, she was ordered by police headquarters to ferry Pam Paugh over to fifteenth Street to collect some clothing that John, Patsy, and Burke Ramsey could war to the funeral. Even that decision, as kind as it might have been to grieving parents, was questionable, for nothing should be removed from an active crime scene."

ST (HB) Page 52:

"She spent an hour on her first trip through the crime scene and emerged with a big cardboard box filled to the brim, which she plopped into the trunk of the police car. For the next several hours, Pam made about half a dozen trips through the bouse, often spending an hour or more inside, and hauled out suitcases, boxes, bags, and loose items until the backseat of the police car was stuffed like a steamer trunk."

"Pam's last trip was into the bedroom of JonBenet, and she pumped herself up again; "I can do this, I can do this, I can do this." She came back carrying an armload of stuffed animals and other items from the first room in the house to have been sealed off by police."

"Everett kept only a general inventory of what was removed, and even that abbreviated listing was astonishing. Stuffed animals, tiaras, three dresses for JonBenet, pageant photo portfolios, toys and clothes for Burke, John Ramsey's Daytime, the desk Bible, and clothing. For Patsy, there were black pants, dress suits, boots, and the contents of the curio cabinet. Bills, credit cards, a black cashmere trench coat, jewelry that included her grandmother's ring and an emerald necklace, bathrobes, a cell phone, personal papers, bank records, Christmas stockings, her Nordstrom's credit card, and even their passports. The patrol car was loaded with zipped bags, boxes, sacks, and luggage, the true contents unknown."

Gosh, Ames: that passage never fails to take my breath away. Thank you for resurrecting it - it's nothing short of dumbfounding that Pam got away with this and that the heads of the people who authorised it didn't roll!

(Happy May Day all, btw: white rabbits to you all).

 

[Sophie]

Hi Camper.

"Everyone knows how much JR would have needed the golf clubs & bag in the DEAD of winter, particularly IF IF they ended up in Charlevoix MI." - Camper

Hey, do you know what 'brand' / what was the make of JR's set of clubs?

Hi, Tadpole,

Also, is it known how much of a golf freak John was before the death. I mean, if he was a total golf addict then I can honestly see him carrying on with it immediately after the death on the basis that some people stick to habits and routines in terms of extreme stress. On the other hand, if he wasn't a golf addict, then insisting on retrieving the clubs does raise a red flag or two.

 

[Tadpole12]

--->>>Sorry I don't.

DOI chapter called 'Saying Goodbye', page 34 through 35 makes NO mention of the golf clubs, in the rather long list of items that Aunt Pam picked up. Their interpretation of what items she was 'able' to remove was said that the items were logged by the BPD Person, one by one.

I do recall something I had read about ?somewhere? that JR's fav clubs or something to that effect had his name on the bag in gold letters, I am vague on where I read that. Only that he had a special fondness for them, I cannot remember. I seem to also recall that the clubs had 'special' club hoodie coverings, donut know the term used for the metal use ends of a club, duh, er.

I am going to put the re-reading of DOI on my coming 'read' list.
Will probably just do short read sessions and absorb again time frame.

So I will plan on jumping in and starting a new thread when SOMETHING jumps out at me after all this time.



Although I do think that pro golfers take along 'pet' clubs like a putter er. to stick in their bag of perhaps original clubs purchased as a 'brand' name set.

I don't recall the type of club found in the yard, an iron or putter er???

.

Hi Camper.

Well ty very much for the info that you are able to provide. hmmm lots to consider just from that.

I am guessing that you are 'wondering' about the connection between the club found in the yard and the set Aunt Pam took, huh, er?. - Camper

YES.

Ya, ya know, seasoned golfers do have favorite clubs, some even backup clubs from an old set ... that were 'lucky' or a provide a 'sweet' chip or put.


term used : the 'heads'

the putter and the 'irons:'four' iron, the heads are not round but flat, reminescant of the bone particle that was dislodged from JBR's head.


Hey Camper, when you "do [your] short read sessions", could you start a thead focussing on the 'reviewed' material fom DOI. That would be swell?


.... a hopeful Tad

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi, Tadpole,

Also, is it known how much of a golf freak John was before the death. I mean, if he was a total golf addict then I can honestly see him carrying on with it immediately after the death on the basis that some people stick to habits and routines in terms of extreme stress. On the other hand, if he wasn't a golf addict, then insisting on retrieving the clubs does raise a red flag or two.

Hi Sophie.

Ya, golf addicts do become strangely attached to their golf set.
I think my hubs would save his set, once owned by his father, if there would be the need.

And for sure 'Dad' .... 'if the house was on fire' would have saved his set, maybe even before he would have saved 'Mom'. pfft.

 

[Sophie]

Hi Sophie.

Ya, golf addicts do become strangely attached to their golf set.
I think my hubs would save his set, once owned by his father, if there would be the need.

And for sure 'Dad' .... 'if the house was on fire' would have saved his set, maybe even before he would have saved 'Mom'. pfft.

LOL. No golf addicts in my family but my dear hub will no doubt watch Manchester United on telly during the Apocalypse and moan no end about interference with the cable service as God sends us all to our rewards...

 

[Tadpole12]

LOL. No golf addicts in my family but my dear hub will no doubt watch Manchester United on telly during the Apocalypse and moan no end about interference with the cable service as God sends us all to our rewards...

LOL!

a Manchester United Fan!

Whoa, 'Props' to you Sophie.
you're living with a special breed.

Next game: vs. Middlesbrough, 2 May 8:45am ET
FYI

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't care if the golf clubs were solid gold- this was while his "murdered" 6-year old daughter was still IN THE MORGUE. The entire house would shortly be packed up and moved to Atlanta. Was there a reason why that golf bag could not go on the moving van with the rest of the family belongings? This was December in Colorado and they were headed to Atlanta. He didn't need that golf bag for the purposes of playing golf RIGHT THEN. IMO, the only reason why he needed that golf bag at all is that there must have been something in it that was too risky to allow it to be taken into evidence. No danger there- the Boulder circus clowns never bothered to consider it evidence in the first place, even though by then the autopsy had discovered a HOLE punched in her skull which could have been made by a golf club. You know...a golf club from the GOLF BAG 2 feet outside the room where she was found.

 

[Ames]

I don't care if the golf clubs were solid gold- this was while his "murdered" 6-year old daughter was still IN THE MORGUE. The entire house would shortly be packed up and moved to Atlanta. Was there a reason why that golf bag could not go on the moving van with the rest of the family belongings? This was December in Colorado and they were headed to Atlanta. He didn't need that golf bag for the purposes of playing golf RIGHT THEN. IMO, the only reason why he needed that golf bag at all is that there must have been something in it that was too risky to allow it to be taken into evidence. No danger there- the Boulder circus clowns never bothered to consider it evidence in the first place, even though by then the autopsy had discovered a HOLE punched in her skull which could have been made by a golf club. You know...a golf club from the GOLF BAG 2 feet outside the room where she was found.

Yeah, and even Patsy said that John was not an avid golfer...and that she couldn't even remember the last time that he played. Oh, but he just HAD to have that golf bag. I don't know of anybody that plays golf in the dead of winter in Atlanta either. It's not exactly the Bahamas. Yes, it's warmer than Colorado (I have lived two states up from CO, and now live in SC, about four hours from Atlanta...so I know what the weather is like in both places), but it's not warm enough to play golf.

 

[Ravyn]

Now we know the BR was reported hitting JBR with a golf club accidently,so maybe it happen again,I don't know just a thought. And anyone in the armed forces will tell you that the garrote looks just like a tourniquet, cause in basic training you have to learn first aid.But Auntie Pam shouldn't be allowed to take this stuff clothes yes, but a police car full no.

 

[DeeDee249]

Now we know the BR was reported hitting JBR with a golf club accidently,so maybe it happen again,I don't know just a thought. And anyone in the armed forces will tell you that the garrote looks just like a tourniquet, cause in basic training you have to learn first aid.But Auntie Pam shouldn't be allowed to take this stuff clothes yes, but a police car full no.

Actually, she shouldn't even have been allowed to take clothes from a crime scene. The Rs didn't need clothes from the funeral. It was reported that local shops donated funeral clothes for the family- PR spoke about buying a new outfit and made special mention of her "Jacquie Kennedy" hat with veil.
At the most, Aunt P should have been allowed to take a pageant dress and accessories for JBR to be buried in, and taken the family's documents, jewelry and that's it. And done it with an officer right next to her every step through that house. We know that LE stayed OUTSIDE the house, while Aunt P took her time and FILLED the patrol car with items requested by her sister. All the while wearing a POLICE jacket so as not to attract suspicion. Right. So here is another inexplicable action by LE that leaves me dumbfounded. Allow a relative of a MURDER SUSPECT free access to a crime scene. Alone.

Oh, I forgot. Hunter said to treat "these people like victims, not suspects".
And so they did.

 

[Ravyn]

See that's the part I don't understand the R's said the LE treated them like crimerals right off the bat, and Auntie Pam going in the crime scene says different..but then again this case always twisting and turning..

 

[Ravyn]

Now in the begining I never believed the IDI theory, I feel in my heart JB knew and trusted the person(s) now if BR did tell the truth about hearing something about midnight,now I read this in one the links that was giving me,since he was a the second floor, and if JAR was there maybe what BR heard was someone making it look like JAR wasn't there, best way I can think of putting suitcases on the bed where it look like they been there getting ready for a trip.Now on JAR theory still looking into the timeframe of his whereabouts.As everyone knows here this wasn't done by someone strange to the house, the one that done this I believe in my opinion knew the house.

 

[BBB167893]

See that's the part I don't understand the R's said the LE treated them like crimerals right off the bat, and Auntie Pam going in the crime scene says different..but then again this case always twisting and turning..

That's easy: to make themselves look like victims twice over. As I say in the book, every hero needs a good villain. Batman has the Joker, Sherlock Holmes has James Moriarty, etc. The Rs have TWO villians. First the "intruder," then the big, bad cops.

 

[Tadpole12]

Now in the begining I never believed the IDI theory, I feel in my heart JB knew and trusted the person(s) now if BR did tell the truth about hearing something about midnight,now I read this in one the links that was giving me,since he was a the second floor, and if JAR was there maybe what BR heard was someone making it look like JAR wasn't there, best way I can think of putting suitcases on the bed where it look like they been there getting ready for a trip.Now on JAR theory still looking into the timeframe of his whereabouts.As everyone knows here this wasn't done by someone strange to the house, the one that done this I believe in my opinion knew the house.

Hi Ravyn.

Wow .... on your line of speculation. I had never thought of it that way ...
someone else who was also going to take the early morning flight with the Ramseys could well have been there, at the Ramsey home that night.
Your speculation applies .... even if the known time frame excludes JAR.

 

[Sophie]

That's easy: to make themselves look like victims twice over. As I say in the book, every hero needs a good villain. Batman has the Joker, Sherlock Holmes has James Moriarty, etc. The Rs have TWO villians. First the "intruder," then the big, bad cops.

LOL! Conjured up an image of the detectives twirling handlebar moustaches like the villains in a Victorian melodrama

Seriously, though: DOI is quite possibly the most obvious bit of self-victimising propaganda ever published.

 

[Sophie]

LOL!

a Manchester United Fan!

Whoa, 'Props' to you Sophie.
you're living with a special breed.

Next game: vs. Middlesbrough, 2 May 8:45am ET
FYI

LOL. Thank you! Hub actually went to that match so I spent a blissful afternoon with a glass of Chardonnay and the posts on here I had only managed to skim during the week.

Seriously, DeeDee and Ames do raise a point which had sort of passed me by, namely the weather. I wonder whether the golf courses in Colorado and Georgia are even open during the winter months?

 

[BBB167893]

LOL! Conjured up an image of the detectives twirling handlebar moustaches like the villains in a Victorian melodrama

Seriously, though: DOI is quite possibly the most obvious bit of self-victimising propaganda ever published.

You catch on fast.

 

[Sophie]

You catch on fast.

LOL: you're on form!

DoI was a masterpiece in its own way: my mother and sisters were literally bawling crying at the heinousness of the treatment meted out to the Ramseys. Add that to the Mills and Tracey docu-comedies, and they think that there is a new circle of hell just for the BPD...

 

[Tadpole12]

LOL: you're on form!

DoI was a masterpiece in its own way: my mother and sisters were literally bawling crying at the heinousness of the treatment meted out to the Ramseys. Add that to the Mills and Tracey docu-comedies, and they think that there is a new circle of hell just for the BPD...

Hi sophie.

ty for that insight,
Was the book off putting to you when you read it.
Did you read it as a total work of fiction?

 

[Sophie]

Hi sophie.

ty for that insight,
Was the book off putting to you when you read it.
Did you read it as a total work of fiction?

Hi Tadpole,

Must say, I bought the book in the hope that it would support the notion of Ramsey innocence but it actually persuaded me of their guilt. To me, the whole tenor of the book was one of reinvention - reinvention of their co-operation with the police, reinvention of their lives pre- and post-murder, reinvention of the investigation etc. It also seems to have been predicated on the idea of attack being the best form of defence and it was therefore a ruthless attack on the BPD generally and ST specifically. For example, they object to some questions ST asked a witness about their (the Ramseys') physical relationship and refer to him as 'sick,' knowing that the average reader will find the question distasteful and therefore condemn ST rather than the Ramseys. In fact, murder investigations with sexual competents are always going to raise unsavoury questions and it would have been delinquent of ST not to ask them but, in DoI, they push buttons that will work for many readers and suggest that he was some sort of sick freak for asking them. Likewise, they twabble on about how young ST and Trujillo looked, obviously trying to make them sound like clueless young puppies. They may well have looked youthful (lucky buggers) but the fact is, they were mid-thirties and experienced policemen. I'm articulating this appallingly, but it seemed to me that the Ramseys tried to establish their own innocence purely by attacking the BPD's competence.

Actually, I could have summarised that waffle in one word : manipulative.