The Eikelenbooms and Touch DNA

[Amster]

No, the E team won't be doing the testing. The lab chosen to do the work does touch DNA....no need for the E's.

 

[whiteangora]

Why would a lab in PA bring in a couple from Europe who don't have the same accreditation as the lab personnel do? That's not making sense to me. Isn't it Colorado the E's are heading for?

I think this is Baez saying "uncle" and waving bye bye to the "E's". At least I hope so.

It's getting confusing now, Holland, CO, now PA........I think JB does this just to keep us on our toes.:nyah:

 

[Dear Prudence]

I thought this was a really interesting read.

http://www.courts.state.ny.us/REPORTER/3dseries/2010/2010_20037.htm

Earlier this year a Frye Hearing was held in a New York State case to determine if the LCN DNA method of testing meets generally acceptable scientific techniques. The court found that it did meet standards as performed and interpreted by the NY Office of Chief Medical Examiner and would be admissible in the case.

 

[Leila]

The Eikelenbooms and their expertise in Touch DNA is being discussed on several different threads, so I thought it would be nice to try and consolidate the infomation to one thread.

Richard and Selma Eikelenboom are Dutch forensic scientists that specialize in evidence analysis and DNA extraction. They own a company in the Netherlands called Independent Forensic Services. Information on their expertise can be found at their website:

http://www.forensic-services.nl/

Baez filed a motion which was argued at a status hearing yesterday 9/27/10 in which he wanted to send the canvas laundry bag and the pair of shorts found with Caylee to the Eikelenbooms lab in the Netherlands in order for them to attempt to extract DNA. Judge Perry stated he will not allow the evidence to leave the country. Baez stated the Eikelenbooms are opening a lab in Denver, CO and they could test the evidence there. JP said he would be inclined to grant that but would formally rule later this week.

Things of interest to me include:
Richard and Selma Eikelenboom themselves & are they renowned in their field as the defense claims

What is Touch DNA, is it a technique allowed in US criminal cases

Defense reasoning on testing those 2 particular items, the canvas bag and the shorts & what do you think they'll find and the implications

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread, but having read about the Eikelenbooms, I'm concerned that JB is trying to introduce reasonable doubt by any means.

He's not requesting the blanket and other items found at the dump site, only the shorts and canvass bag. Just the name, "touch DNA" suggests DNA transferred by only brief contact: Cindy does the laundry and pulls Caylee's shorts out of the dryer and folds them - her DNA is transferred to the shorts; Caylee sits next to RM on his sofa and he reaches across her for the remote control, his hand briefly touching her shorts and his DNA is transferred to the shorts.

There's any number of circumstances where DNA could be transferred from a person to another person's clothing. If a person sneezed just a couple of feet away, their DNA would land on your clothing through the droplets in a sneeze - or a cough.

Lets say the testing by the Eikelenbooms shows that Caylee's shorts have DNA from Casey, Cindy, George, Ricardo, Amy, and DNA from several other unidentified people (people at a supermarket or other places Caylee went to while wearing those shorts). The defense will tell the jury that any of these people could have killed and dumped Caylee at the site.

JB is trying to find any means of showing DNA other than Casey's on the shorts and laundry bag.

 

[Sun]

Originally posted by salvarenga yesterday:

Article on the "world renowned" Touch DNA expert that is relocating to Denver per JB:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12102408

Thanks salvarenga, nice find!!

Thanks so much for sharing this link, Dear Prudence
and salvarenga!

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12102408

Though world-renowned in their fields, the couple have registered as grad students at the University of Denver, where he'll research touch DNA and she'll study ways to determine the time of death. Having the letters "P," "H" and "D" after their names, they say, should help disarm their naysayers.

"We're looking for lots of acreage," she says of their search for a place to live and work in the foothills. "I'm not moving here to mingle."

Over a year ago, it seems like neither had met the educational requirements that I would expect of an expert witness in the medical/science area.

 

[logicalgirl]

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread, but having read about the Eikelenbooms, I'm concerned that JB is trying to introduce reasonable doubt by any means.

He's not requesting the blanket and other items found at the dump site, only the shorts and canvass bag. Just the name, "touch DNA" suggests DNA transferred by only brief contact: Cindy does the laundry and pulls Caylee's shorts out of the dryer and folds them - her DNA is transferred to the shorts; Caylee sits next to RM on his sofa and he reaches across her for the remote control, his hand briefly touching her shorts and his DNA is transferred to the shorts.

There's any number of circumstances where DNA could be transferred from a person to another person's clothing. If a person sneezed just a couple of feet away, their DNA would land on your clothing through the droplets in a sneeze - or a cough.

Lets say the testing by the Eikelenbooms shows that Caylee's shorts have DNA from Casey, Cindy, George, Ricardo, Amy, and DNA from several other unidentified people (people at a supermarket or other places Caylee went to while wearing those shorts). The defense will tell the jury that any of these people could have killed and dumped Caylee at the site.

JB is trying to find any means of showing DNA other than Casey's on the shorts and laundry bag.

Mother Nature may have a little something to say about that.

 

[nums24]

Here is a transcript of R. Eikelenboom's testimony in the Master's case:

http://www.uis.edu/innocenceproject...nts/Nov62006testimonyofRichardEikelenboom.pdf

 

[ynotdivein]

Mother Nature may have a little something to say about that.

logical, I figured so too, but reading the Masters case outline (thank yous to WSers who provided links!), it seems that after a decade-plus, the E's were obtaining DNA remnants from the victim's clothing and matching them to ex-boyfriends etc.

Guess I'd feel a lot better if there had been a Body Farm-type space open for the last several decades, testing "touch DNA" remnants from various items left out in various elements for various lengths of time.

 

[nums24]

Web Extra: Inside The Crime Farm The Eikelenboom Lab

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/16/48hours/main6304279.shtml

Video Report, Inside The Crime Farm: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6304404n&tag=related;photovideo

 

[Snaz]

OK, so I guess I have a dumb question then...

HHJP made the comment at yesterday's hearing that he was inclined to grant the defense's motion to have the evidence tested. However, he also stated he would not allow the testing to be done outside of the country.

HHJP ruled today that the testing will be done by National Medical Services in Willow Grove, PA, NOT by the E's in Holland, as the defense was requesting. If I understood JA's objection correctly, he did not object to the defense testing the evidence. He only objected to it not being done at an accredited lab and within the U.S.

So, HOW is this a WIN (as in granting the defense's motion) for the defense? Seems to me this is a win for the prosecution, as JA got exactly what he wanted.

Am I missing something here?

TIA!

 

[nums24]

OK, so I guess I have a dumb question then...

HHJP made the comment at yesterday's hearing that he was inclined to grant the defense's motion to have the evidence tested. However, he also stated he would not allow the testing to be done outside of the country.

HHJP ruled today that the testing will be done by National Medical Services in Willow Grove, PA, NOT by the E's in Holland, as the defense was requesting. If I understood JA's objection correctly, he did not object to the defense testing the evidence. He only objected to it not being done at an accredited lab and within the U.S.

So, HOW is this a WIN (as in granting the defense's motion) for the defense? Seems to me this is a win for the prosecution, as JA got exactly what he wanted.

Am I missing something here?

TIA!

Can you please tell me where it says the E's are NOT doing the testing? :waitasec:

 

[Snaz]

Can you please tell me where it says the E's are NOT doing the testing? :waitasec:

No, I'm sorry... I can't. I was going on the assumption that the lab chosen would be doing the testing rather than to allow the E's into their lab to do the testing.

Would JA have agreed to the E's doing the testing at the lab in PA?

I guess we will know for sure if the E's will be doing the testing or not once we see the judge's ruling.

If the E's are allowed to do it, that explains my question about how this is a win for the defense.

 

[nums24]

No, I'm sorry... I can't. I was going on the assumption that the lab chosen would be doing the testing rather than to allow the E's into their lab to do the testing.

Would JA have agreed to the E's doing the testing at the lab in PA?

I guess we will know for sure if the E's will be doing the testing or not once we see the judge's ruling.

If the E's are allowed to do it, that explains my question about how this is a win for the defense.

<snipped>

Ashton said he was concerned about the items leaving the country, where the prosecution would have no power to compel witnesses to testify. He also wanted to limit any damage to important pieces of evidence caused by transporting them great distances.

Ashton said he would not object to the items being tested at National Medical Services of Willow Grove, Pa. That facility is also acceptable to the defense team, according to its motion.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...casey-anthony-status-20100928,0,1617809.story

 

[ynotdivein]

Web Extra: Inside The Crime Farm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/16/48hours/main6304279.shtml

Video Report, Inside The Crime Farm: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6304404n&tag=related;photovideo

nums, thank you for both of these, and more generally for the amazing work you do here. In my readings about the Eikelenbooms' lab, I've seen them pull samples out of items that one might not expect to yield anything of evidentiary value, but I haven't seen anything yet that tells me that they are doing the kind of control testing where they deliberately touch items and then leave them in swampy/marshy water for 2, 3, 6 months and then test for DNA, or put the items in arid heat or buried under a layer of brush in the fall for six weeks and then test. Clearly they are working on the cutting edge of this type of science, and for that I applaud them.

That being said... while touch DNA is a fascinating topic, IMO it is no more than an interesting distraction from much more significant evidence in Caylee's murder: 31 days with no report. Blockbuster video. 911 call. Duct tape on baby's face linked to duct tape in A home. KC's lies. "It smells like there's been a dead body in the d*mn car!" And the list could go on...

:cow:

 

[chefmom]

No, I'm sorry... I can't. I was going on the assumption that the lab chosen would be doing the testing rather than to allow the E's into their lab to do the testing.

Would JA have agreed to the E's doing the testing at the lab in PA?

I guess we will know for sure if the E's will be doing the testing or not once we see the judge's ruling.

If the E's are allowed to do it, that explains my question about how this is a win for the defense.

I think that JB can use the E's or whatever expert he wants to test the items, but he has to do it here in the US at this PA lab. IMO, if the E's are unable to find some nefarious DNA to cast reasonable doubt, they can now say that they were at a disadvantage having to use a strange lab and not having access to their usual devices, etc, etc.

 

[Snaz]

<snipped>

Ashton said he was concerned about the items leaving the country, where the prosecution would have no power to compel witnesses to testify. He also wanted to limit any damage to important pieces of evidence caused by transporting them great distances.

Ashton said he would not object to the items being tested at National Medical Services of Willow Grove, Pa. That facility is also acceptable to the defense team, according to its motion.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...casey-anthony-status-20100928,0,1617809.story

So, Nums, do you think the E's will be allowed to perform the testing at the lab in PA?

TIA.

ETA: Chefmom, I didn't see your response when I posted... so thank you for your answer.

 

[alphaville]

Whoever said JB was trying to introduce reasonable doubt is spot on, IMO.

Mother Nature may have a little something to say about that.

Well, if they use Low Copy Number profiling, then there is definitely a chance some skin cells survived the elements. 5 skin cells could certainly hide in the sewed parts of the shorts and remain protected.

 

[nums24]

nums, thank you for both of these, and more generally for the amazing work you do here. In my readings about the Eikelenbooms' lab, I've seen them pull samples out of items that one might not expect to yield anything of evidentiary value, but I haven't seen anything yet that tells me that they are doing the kind of control testing where they deliberately touch items and then leave them in swampy/marshy water for 2, 3, 6 months and then test for DNA, or put the items in arid heat or buried under a layer of brush in the fall for six weeks and then test. Clearly they are working on the cutting edge of this type of science, and for that I applaud them.

That being said... while touch DNA is a fascinating topic, IMO it is no more than an interesting distraction from much more significant evidence in Caylee's murder: 31 days with no report. Blockbuster video. 911 call. Duct tape on baby's face linked to duct tape in A home. KC's lies. "It smells like there's been a dead body in the d*mn car!" And the list could go on...

:cow:

I am right there with you ynot. The irony is rich indeed, after reading this thread and watching these videos, it seems like the defense wants the cake and to eat it too. They will fight against the air samples, yet use this science to try and clear ICA.

 

[nums24]

So, Nums, do you think the E's will be allowed to perform the testing at the lab in PA?

TIA.

ETA: Chefmom, I didn't see your response when I posted... so thank you for your answer.

I do believe so and I agree with what Chefmom said too.

 

[Numbers]

Thanks so much for sharing this link, Dear Prudence
and salvarenga!

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12102408

Though world-renowned in their fields, the couple have registered as grad students at the University of Denver, where he'll research touch DNA and she'll study ways to determine the time of death. Having the letters "P," "H" and "D" after their names, they say, should help disarm their naysayers.

"We're looking for lots of acreage," she says of their search for a place to live and work in the foothills. "I'm not moving here to mingle."

Over a year ago, it seems like neither had met the educational requirements that I would expect of an expert witness in the medical/science area.

RBM

Snobby much?