Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #3

[hollyblue]

Why would she have brains or other "matter" all over herself/water? The pirates (as previously reported http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr100110.pdf) are using AR15 or AK 47 = bullet in and bullet out is about the same diameter to the naked eye. There is no "matter" sprayed all over. The moment of death, the heart stops beating and the blood stops pumping. The movies, that people watch, sort of give a wrong description of what bullets do IMO.

I've shot lots and lots of elk, mule deer and white tail deer and there is never, ever "matter" sprayed all over the place. Entrance/exit is about the same to the untrained eye.

ALL of the above is just my opinion and my experience.

ONCE again want to state the Hartley's DID NOT cross into Mexican water's illegally. Already posted the FACTS on another thread.

The border, in the lake, is NOT well marked. There are several miles between the markers. I don't think the Hartley's ever disputed they were going to Mexico to see the old church?

You hunt with AK47's and AR15's? Really?

Your correct that they did not enter the Mexican side of the lake illegally, but to me, TH going on this border binge has absolutely nothing to do with DH's death. Nothing. If he was killed inside of MX territory, what border issue are we dealing with here?

Per Intermezzo's post above, this looks to me like she/they had done their homework on the Old Guerrero area....which I do not believe that they were in fact there.

On April 30, five people in two different boats were fishing on Falcon Lake and went to the Old Guerrero area, where they were taking photos of the old church. While they were there, a boat with four heavily tattooed men approached the two boats quickly. The men identified themselves as "Federales," but they were not wearing uniforms. The men boarded the boats, demanded cash and asked "where are the drugs?" The fishermen told the men that they had no drugs and were just fishing and taking photos. They ended up giving the men $200 cash and left the area. The pirates followed the two boats, but the U.S. boats were able to outrun them and the men stopped following once the two boats entered U.S. waters"

Also, they were reportedly 7 miles into MX boundaries...her on a jet ski with 70 mph capabilities vs a fishing boat with a max mph of what 30-40 mph....yet they were right behind her and on her tail when she was approaching US soil? Given the "chase" would have been over a few miles at least, how in the world did they manage to stay so close to her.????


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[hollyblue]

I'll chime in here. :innocent:
All we have from Tiffany regarding taking a Poly is a "Might"
I have not read that Tiffany said she would take a poly only that "she might" or "that might be an option"
There is no refusal by Tiffany to take a poly because she has never been asked to, by American LE and we don't know if Mexican authorities have asked?.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/10/08/mexico.us.shooting/index.html?eref=rss_crime&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_crime+%28RSS%3A+Crime%29

"On Thursday, Tiffany Hartley said she might take a lie detector test if people continue to doubt the veracity of her account.

If "that's what the authorities think I need to do, then that might be an option," she said when asked on CNN's "AC 360" about taking a lie detector test."

I'm hoping she doesn't need to....hoping the info they have gathered from her brilliant various interviews....and the retelling to the MX authorities...over and over again at the FBI office held enough BS for a thorough investigation at least.

I can't express my distaste for her "moving on" to this border issue, when what supposedly did happen had not a dang thing to do with the border. If it wasn't for DH being disappeared, it would be a fabulous joke. Instead it's a fallacy. I agree, she doesn't has a clue and is only taking it in from others like a little bird being fed and twirping it out again. Instead she should be telling people not to make the same STUPID mistake she made (?) by not listening to the authorities and venturing into awaiting trouble and mayhem. Deflect, change the subject, and BS your way through. Maybe she could go back to college for a degree in criminology and become the Sheriff's sidekick in Zapata.....but don't ask either one of them to step foot in MX to help in the investigation of an alleged shooting of an American citizen. :furious: Just picture taking......

 

[hollyblue]

This whole case falls into a curious "no-man's land".

Unless Texas Law is broken, the local Sheriff has no jusrisdiction and no reason to do any investigation. This would include pay for a poly. If Tiffany is telling the truth, there in no US jurisdiction. No aspect of the crime occured in the US. The American Consulate will work with the appropriate Mexican LE anytime a American is a victim of a serious crime in Mexico. My understanding is that they secure the co-operation of the victim, they make forensic technology available, and, perhaps, they make sure the locals are "amply motivated" to pursue the matter. In this case, initially two brothers were identified as suspects. (although they sounded more like common criminals than Drug Gang members) Then a lead investigator on the case was killed and his head cut off. Was this related to the Hartley case? We don't know. Later, Mexican authorities report that they found no trace of either David or the jet-ski and Mexican fishermen in the area reported no sighting of any boats with three men in them as Tiffany describes. Are they covering for or afraid of a Drug Gang or the "brothers"? We don't know. Now the Mexican LE position is that they do not believe the attack ever happened. Obviously, there are reasons to be skeptical.

Sherriff Sig has one primary concern. Did Tiffany Kill David or it there otherwise, a murder that is on his turf? Presumably he has done "sniffing around". His job is political so it is unlikely that that he would acknowledge any "doubt" of Tiffany's story unless he really had something that would be made public. We don't know what he really thinks. Of course, if this all proves to be a hoax, Tiffany could be charged with the false report.

If there is a substantial life Ins policy and a claim is filed, that will be the point where a very serious investigation will begin. Tiffany will have to prove he's dead. I don't know what it takes to have someone declared legally dead in Mexico but that, in itself won't be enough. The Ins co will pay for a serious investigation in Mexico and they won't be interested in putting any Drug gangsters in prison; only getting to the bottom of what happened. If they do prove fraud, they will provide the impetus for the prosecution of David and Tiffany.

While I have expressed suspicion that this is all a hoax, I have no idea what the motive might be. Insurance is a possibility, I have not heard any report that there is any. While Tiffany seems to be enjoying her new career as a "spokesperson" for border violence awareness, I can't see that as a motive. And what about David. He lived in Mexico three years so he knows his way around, but he can't lay low forever. He may have some sort of identity change planned.

We may never know.

BBM: Why did he send the life jacket away for forensics on the microscopic evidence if he didn't have the authority to do it?

I sadly agree.

 

[hollyblue]

Did anyone notice on the last video posted on the last thread of TH giving the interview of her view of the problems of US government and how to handle them....and notice the hugh palm? trees? When and where was this interview given? Surely not CO. ????? ETA: Never mind, I see it was done in TX....but when? Was interviewed by Steve Nohrden....running for congress. (NV)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY50dLc90jc[/ame]


This is the website of the person whose "support" put that video out there:

http://stevenohrden4congress.com/

 

[cmsg2002]

I'm at a loss to understand why TH in that video is now espousing 'take back our country' 'most americans believe in God' 'this country was founded on God' 'our founding fathers did not intend....' blah, blah, blah.

I'm sorry, but I have serious doubts that her husband is dead. I don't believe he is and from her actions, IMO, she knows he isn't either.

Wonder if he will reappear after election day is over? just MOO...

 

[Kimberlyd125]

What would election day have to do with it?

 

[Linda7NJ]

But from what she said, LE told her there was no need.
IMO she is not being looked at as a suspect so why would she need to take one? To satisfy internet forum members?
LE believes her. There are several articles stating that. Has there been any articles quoting LE where they questioned her account at all? They believe her.
Texas Gov. Believes her. He went so far as to say those questioning her should be ashamed. (paraphrased)
David's family believes her. They have said over and over they believe her. I saw David's Father and Sister on the Early Show this morning talking about the Mexican Pirates and border control.

Why would she need to take one?

and if they didn't believe her or had trouble with some parts of "her story" ? Come out and tell her? Don't think so. That would serve no purpose.

Really, what can they do about it anyway? The US has no jurisdiction if it happened in Mexico....and Mexico is supposed to? What? Suddenly put an end to the drug cartels?

 

[Tuffy]

What would election day have to do with it?

It shouldn't, but the border issue is so politically charged right now that it apparently has everything to do with this case.

 

[Tuffy]

But from what she said, LE told her there was no need.
IMO she is not being looked at as a suspect so why would she need to take one? To satisfy internet forum members?
LE believes her. There are several articles stating that. Has there been any articles quoting LE where they questioned her account at all? They believe her.
Texas Gov. Believes her. He went so far as to say those questioning her should be ashamed. (paraphrased)
David's family believes her. They have said over and over they believe her. I saw David's Father and Sister on the Early Show this morning talking about the Mexican Pirates and border control.

Why would she need to take one?

I really wish that Gov. Perry had not said that. There is no reason I should feel ashamed for not having complete and unwaivering faith in what a complete stranger (TH) tells me.

From the what the media is reporting, Tiffany has not been investigated, but Sigi says he believes her "story." The only thing that I have read about was the blood test on the life jacket. They have not released the results though. With all the doubt out there, you would think they would give the public something more concrete than "we believe her, and if you don't, you should be ashamed."

She is the last known person to see David alive, she (by her own admission) had his blood on her, and her "story" is far fetched and constantly changing. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a little more investigation in order to clear her before saying she had nothing to do with this.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I believe this woman and it certainly seems that LE does too. I have no clue what LE knows or what evidence they have uncovered but none of it seems to point at Mrs. Hartley.

I think this is just another example where the public tries a family member in the court of public opinion.

She has been upfront and done everything humanely possible to get her husband's body returned.

I doubt that will ever happen but she certainly has put herself on the line trying hard to see that it happens.

IMO, David would be very proud of his wife and how she continues to want his body returned.

IMO

 

[NoeticSoul]

Here's an interesting document from Sheriff Sigi, Governer Rick Perry and the Southwestern Border Sheriff Coalition:

http://homeland.house.gov/SiteDocuments/20090331101204-32080.pdf

It occurs to me, after reding this document that TH might have been been very well coached by Sheriff Sigi and Governor Perry for her television interviews. Anyone notice that TH continuously uses the phrase "spillover violence" on the TODAY Show interview? This term "spillover violence" is also found several times in the document above. It's an intriguing read.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Oh, I disagree about that, too. I really think Eyes is spot-on with her ability to detect deception. I don't think she is wrong about Somer's mom either. I listened to that woman's interviews, and she is very off. She may not be guilty in her daughter's disappearance, but she is showing a lot of deception and very little saddness.

I would actually have more of a problem with Eyes if she changed her opinion of someone's behavior based on whether they are arrested for a crime. IMO

Since the site is not allowed here, I don't think we can really discuss it much.
But, she was DEAD WRONG about Somer's mom.

There has been NO deception by DT AT ALL. And she is sad. How can you say she's not???
She did NOTHING wrong. A STRANGER snatched and killed her daughter. What could she be showing deception for????
I followed Somer's case from day one and I don't see HOW anybody could say that.

Just like TH, DT is a VICTIM!!!!

Ok, that's O/T. So I will stop now.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

and if they didn't believe her or had trouble with some parts of "her story" ? Come out and tell her? Don't think so. That would serve no purpose.

Really, what can they do about it anyway? The US has no jurisdiction if it happened in Mexico....and Mexico is supposed to? What? Suddenly put an end to the drug cartels?

Then why should she take the poly???
To satisfy me and you???? Don't think so.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

It shouldn't, but the border issue is so politically charged right now that it apparently has everything to do with this case.

I understand that Tuffy, but what the poster said that I responded to was if DH would "show up" after the election.

That makes no sense to me and I asked that poster why the election would matter.
In terms of DH all of a sudden showing up alive after the election.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I believe this woman and it certainly seems that LE does too. I have no clue what LE knows or what evidence they have uncovered but none of it seems to point at Mrs. Hartley.

I think this is just another example where the public tries a family member in the court of public opinion.She has been upfront and done everything humanely possible to get her husband's body returned.

I doubt that will ever happen but she certainly has put herself on the line trying hard to see that it happens.

IMO, David would be very proud of his wife and how she continues to want his body returned.

IMO

BBM - Spot on!
Great post! I agree!

 

[Tuffy]

I understand that Tuffy, but what the poster said that I responded to was if DH would "show up" after the election.

That makes no sense to me and I asked that poster why the election would matter.
In terms of DH all of a sudden showing up alive after the election.

Oh, gotcha! I wasn't thinking about an 'alive' David showing up. Yeah, I agree with you, if he shows up alive (as in trying to scam people) he's in big trouble if it's before or after the election.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Truth is stranger than fiction any day.

IMO

 

[Waddles]

Here's an interesting document from Sheriff Sigi, Governer Rick Perry and the Southwestern Border Sheriff Coalition:

http://homeland.house.gov/SiteDocuments/20090331101204-32080.pdf

It occurs to me, after reding this document that TH might have been been very well coached by Sheriff Sigi and Governor Perry for her television interviews. Anyone notice that TH continuously uses the phrase "spillover violence" on the TODAY Show interview? This term "spillover violence" is also found several times in the document above. It's an intriguing read.

Yes I have read speculation about this on blogs etc. where they have noticed apparent coaching and language similarities with Sigi

 

[Salem]

Good morning everyone! Thanks for following the David Harley case.

In keeping with the information that is being put out by Mexican LE, US LE, and MSM, the posting rules for this thread are changing just a bit. As most of you have been on the Board for awhile, I know you are used to changing rules with the flow of information but for the newbies (welcome) I want to explain a bit.

In the beginning, we had a missing/possibly shot US citizen and a distraught wife. US LE believed the wife. Mexico LE said they did not believe her. This opened the wife up for discussion because the crime/missing person happened on Mexican soil/water, so Mexico LE has jurisdiction.

Mexico LE's position seems to have changed in that suspects were identified and named. Because Mexico LE has named suspects, this takes the wife, Tiffany off the table. Posting rules about TH are changing from this point forward.

Posts may no longer treat TH as a suspect. She is NOT a suspect. Posts may question her actions/words, but the post may not accuse her of any wrongdoing.

I know it will take a bit to get used to this. Please let me know if you have any questions.

It is important to remember that WS is a victim-friendly forum. TH and all of David's family are considered victims unless evidence is found that says otherwise. For now, LE from both jurisdictions appear to believe TH and we need to post accordingly.

If you have any questions, please pm me or any other mod (they are all aware of this policy) and we will be happy to answer them for you.

Thanks and sorry this post was so long.

Salem

 

[IWannaKnow]

Thank you Salem.