Will the SA Introduce the Critical Missing Motive--KC’s vengeful hostility toward CA

[gxm]

I think having Caylee was a double edge sword for KC. On one hand she tied her down and kept her from doing whatever she wanted. On the other hand she was something to use to control her parents and guarantee a home and food.
I think after Caylee died KC had a reality check and realized that while she may have her freedom she no longer had her meal ticket and way to manipulate her parents. That is probably one of the many reasons she couldn't let her parents know she was gone.
I think maybe the happiest KC might have been is when she was out on bond. She got all the attention she wanted and had no responsibilities at all. If only her parents didn't bug her about what happened to Caylee.
The only thing she lacked was her freedom to party and stay with AL.

ITA. And thank you for stating it so clearly. ICA had to keep the "Caylee is alive" ruse going as long as possible. The entire house of lies she had carefully crafted over the years was about to come tumbling down. In "Casey World" (and only in "Casey World") does the 31 day cover up make any sense. In the real world, the world the rest of us inhabit, it is unfathomable. All I hope is that there is no one on the jury gullible enough to fall for yet another "Casey World" concoction her DT has put forth.

 

[wallflower67]

I haven't read through all the posts yet, so forgive me if this has already been said. Unless Cindy will testify to this, I think any other testimony would be hearsay.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Lee was the only one who, in his deposition, stated that Cindy and Casey had the huge fight that ended up with Cindy's hands around Casey's throat. That could actually be good for the defense. In fact, if Casey gets on the stand, SHE may testify to this fight and say that was the straw that broke the cammel's back as far as to whether she reported the drowing accident or not. "Your mother will never forgive you." She could say she feared for her own life because Cindy "tried to strangle her."

Amy testified that Casey and Cindy had a contentious relationship, and that Cindy called her an unfit mother (per Casey). Lee testified that Casey said she (Casey) was a spiteful ***** and that Cindy told Casey she was an unfit mother. I can't remember if Cindy testified that she told her coworkers that she was thinking of trying to get custody of Caylee. But all said Casey was a good mother.

In the closing statement, the SA may be able to mention that Cindy wanted custody of Caylee, and that Casey had an "If I can't have her you cant' either" type of reaction. But, sort of like in the opening statements, that's not testimony, and the jury will be instructed not to consider that true. However, the bell can't be unrung, as we know!

 

[JusticeSeeker1960]

Legal commentators on every channel keep harping on two huge problems with the SA's case:

(1) There is no proof of how Caylee died (Cause of Death). We'll ignore this here.

(2) KC had no real, compelling motive to murder Caylee. If KC wanted to be free and "single" all she had to do was give Caylee to doting grandparents, Cindy and George, to raise.

This week, the jurors heard a tape in which KC herself tells YM that if she wanted to be rid of Caylee, she'd have given Caylee to Cindy to raise--and that will surely make sense to the jurors.

I'm afraid that if jurors aren't made aware of the truly toxic, combative relationship between KC and Cindy, these jurors will never be "convinced beyond a reasonable doubt" that KC could, would, and did murder Caylee.

Do you think the SA is going to bring out the truth about KC's battles with Cindy? Are there any witnesses who could testify to this? Who are they? What could they describe--and will they do it or become foregetful? Is there any sworn testimony on anyone's deposition that could be used to force them to testify? What are the chances that Cindy or George would admit the truth if re-called to testify?

Right now, I can only think of one person with firsthand knowledge who'd be willing to testify, and that's the neighbor who loaned KC the shovel. He said he heard screaming matches with KC doing the screaming.

Also, which friend was it that said in her depo that everytime Casey was with her & they had plans that Cindy would call her and she'd have to go home...can't remember but I'm thinking one of the older friends. Plus, the SA didn't really do a good job of explaining the fact that Casey had 2 different sets of friends....the original ones that knew about & accepted Caylee and then this new college party crowd...I don't mean to bash the SA by any means, just wish they'd explained the 2 groups.

 

[Pink Panther]

Yes I noticed that too, but wasn't sure of the rationale for it.
But, all of CA's 'Unfit Mother' comments were allowed in, and I couldn't help thinking that if anyone had ever called me that, I doubt I would have spoken to that person again, ever. That would be the kiss of death to that relationship for me, but according to LA Cindy threw it in her face several times....

Maybe because it makes reference to KC stealing and that is not allowed in?

moo

 

[Phumi]

The big problem for the State is that CA told so many "mistruths" and "halftruths" during her depositions and in her police statements (KC and I are best friends, There was never any fight on the night of the 16th, etc.). If she admitted the difficulties she had in her relationship with KC now, she would open herself up for impeachment by the defense and send the case the State is building off on a tangent. It's very frustrating to watch, but the line of questioning has to stick close to the answers previously given. As for the defense, they won't dare bring it up to impeach Cindy for fear of providing the motive the State's case seems to be lacking. So, my guess is, we won't hear much about it at all.

I also believe that Cindy is still unable to admit to the whole truth. She has already testified to KC's wonderful, natural mothering instincts and to the preposterous story of she, KC and Caylee all cuddling together and watching videos.

 

[LawRig]

Indirectly ICA's attitude towards her mother and father have already been introduced to the jury ... every nasty look the defendant shoots her mother and father in court is visible...

you cant describe it as well as she shows it everytime she sees them in court... cant pretend she's happy to seen them...

 

[Tig]

While I recognize that the SA doesn't have to prove motive and understand that the possible motives below don't prove anything, it's what I had saved and thought it may be helpful/useful to others. I'm sure I missed a lot of other potential motives, but this is a rough draft list of what I had previously put together (for what it's worth)...

Possible Motives

Link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-casey-anthony-interviews,0,100606.htmlpage

• ICA told Nathan (Tony’s roommate) she didn’t want Caylee to be at home with her parents due to the arguing – didn’t want Caylee in that environment.

• CA’s brother, Rick Plesea, told Yuri Melich ICA hated CA because Caylee liked CA more than her.

• CA’s brother, Rick Plesea, told Yuri Melich CA went to see a counselor about ICA and counselor recommended CA “kick them out on the street.” CA threatened ICA several times that she would do this and file for custody of Caylee.

• Lee (ICA’s brother) told Jesse Grund ICA left the house 6-15-08 due to a fight ICA had with CA where CA choked Casey.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she didn’t want to be like her mom – wanted out of the house. Had love/hate relationship with CA. Angry because CA held Caylee first when she was born and CA called herself “mommy” in front of Casey.

• Tony Lazarro told ICA he only wanted boys.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she hated her dad because of all his gambling.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she hated her mom

• 5-6-08 – ICA texted NYItaliano (Anthony Rusciano) that her nanny was coming back from Tampa; the nanny’s sister was getting married, and asked Anthony if she (ICA) should “bring the little snothead”.

• ICA told Annie Downing (childhood friend) she was angry at her mother at Caylee’s 2nd b-day party.
Annie: “Caylee was, you know, opening her presents, and Cindy was doing a lot of the work for her and Casey got upset. We had discussion about it. You know, she was upset that Cindy was, you know, helping Caylee when it was Casey's daughter. Casey wanted to be the one helping. And did she say that was an issue between the two of them or a problem? I think that it's -- it was an ongoing battle with the two of them.” http://www.forthepeople.com/Downing.pdf

• ICA told Annie Downing she caught her mom signing her (ICA’s) name to e-mails or a text or something --http://www.forthepeople.com/Downing.pdf

• ICA told Amy H. (friend) her mom was “crazy.” When Amy H. took CA to Tony L.’s apartment to find ICA, Amy H. stated CA was very confrontational....angry.... massive explosion of mother and daughter.

• Lee Anthony (Brother) testified ICA said she was a spiteful bytch.
FG: Did you ask your sister why won't you allow us to see Caylee - what did you tell Det. Edwards she said?
LA: I told him she said "because maybe I'm a spiteful bytch"

• Lee Anthony: She (ICA) told me that my mother had numerous times thrown it in her face in my sister's face that Casey was an unfit mother for Caylee - and that Casey says maybe I am.... and I went on to say that my mother had also referenced Caylee as being a mistake, but the great mistake or best mistake Casey has ever made.

• Christine (friend) speaks on the phone with ICA. (ICA’s call from jail to home).
Casey - No they're not. Because I just watched the news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody, in my own family, is on my side - They just want Caylee back. That's all they're worried about now. Is getting Caylee back.

• ICA's Grandmother (Shirley) stated Caylee hated her mother more than she loved Caylee.

• ICA's jailhouse visit with her parents where she takes her hissy fit - angry at her mother for never allowing ICA to talk, etc. etc. etc.

TY for your post. And all this hatefulness makes one kill their child? E-gads! As bad or whatever this family was, it is hard for me to comprehend allowing that to make one kill their child. I am not saying she didn't murder Caylee. Just trying to understand. Again ty for your post.

 

[JusticeSeeker1960]

This case is very sensitive for me, I have an ex-daughter in law who almost reminds me of KC with the exception of not quite so many lies. But, living a life trying to meet her mother's expectations has lead her to turn to pills. Fine, I could deal with that but now, my grandson is my main concern, especially since she & my son are getting a divorce. If you guys think Cindy Anthony is something, you don't know this woman...she's really a piece of work!

She was expected to get up every day (even though she didn't work), and match her clothes, shoes, handbag, etc. Put on all her makeup, fix her hair just right...she can't just put on jeans and a tshirt....that wasn't acceptable. Then came my grandson. They both (her & her mother) thought he'd be like a little doll..dress him up, take him around town & show him off. What they got was a child that needed MOST of the time and had to be taken care of right then, not later after their 5 hour routine was completed. I asked her once, "Does the baby cramp yours & your Mother's style?" and she said, "Yes". She didn't bond with him when he was a baby, I begged her but she didn't until he was close to one year old when they began having problems & divorce was imminent.

I had to file for my disability retirement & was approved in 2007/8, and when my son filed for divorce, Momma put her in rehab-again- and her Mother filed paperwork to get custody of the baby siting "substantial harm"...because he would be around ME! They turned on me like...well, you get the idea! All because I was on daily medication & told a TON of lies on me in order to do 2 things: 1)break my son because they brought me into it & since they had absolutely nothing on him except that he's gone to work 2 wks. at a time & 2) to cause him to have sooo much attorney's fees that he wasn't able to fight (yea, they have money & she's an only child).

Long story short, that baby is my life & because of that, I can relate to Cindy's heartache & the void that she feels. During my grandson's first year of life, he was with me for several months due to her going in and out of rehab....at their request...her mom always called me to come get him saying she couldn't take care of him (she's a cancer survivor & also takes meds every day but she had her doctors type a letter saying she was just hunky dorry). I'm in a constant worry that something may happen to my grandson, I've lost so much weight from worrying but I can't help it.

I feel Cindy's pain in having to re-live this horrible tragedy all over again. But, on the other hand, the SA needs to point out her expectations & especially how she always told George she would handle KC. The DT has made it such an issue that George didn't call KC, George didn't seem upset when the cops got there, etc.. They really need to do something because some people look so pretty on the outside but it doesn't show the other side of them & yes, it can cause some people to go to great lengths to measure up or it takes them down, way down! Doesn't give them an excuse to kill, just sayin!

 

[Aedrys]

Well, I think the jury got an eyeful of their relationship in those videos shown last week. It was brilliant on the SA's part. No one had to testify to it, the jury just watched it for themselves in those videos. I think that's why the SA showed those videos - to get in the motive of her hatred for her mother without actually having to have anyone testify to it (and also for the lies too, but I definitely think that it was also to show the real relationship between CA and ICA). It's come up in other ways too - the text where she says her mom owes her came up, the 911 tapes and the description by Lee of her mom trying to get out of her where Caylee was, and how Casey glares at her mom in court too. By making Cindy so sympathetic on the stand and Casey still obviously showing hate towards her, the jury is seeing live the relationship between those two. The motive is obvious to me. It's just not being said in obvious words in court. I don't think the SA has to say it at this point. It's already out there.

 

[rosepetal1065]

If there were a way to take the videos of Caylee being filmed by Casey, it would show the lack of interaction between her and her baby and the baby's reaction to it. There are a few. Shows to me, she never expressed herself as a loving mother to her daughter unless someone else was around. But at least once, even when there were others around, I perceived it on the video where she is tickling her on the floor, but it wasn't long before Caylee was ready to get away from her. Casey just couldn't pull it off and kids don't lie. They react.

I noticed this too, and thought I was being harsh..since I hate her, but Caylee was trying to escape, the tickling game wasn't fun to her. imo

I get worried too, then I remind myself, what's normal to us, will not be in terms of ICA, motive to regular people, will be off a few pegs concerning her. moo

 

[Tig]

TY JusticeSeeker. Your personal telling is horrific and puts a clearer perspective for me.
Hoping things do get better...

 

[feddup]

I really wish the state could bring in and explore the fight between Casey and Cindy on the 15th. Or was there one? I always thought there was and thought that was the trigger for Casey's anger. IF Cindy did threaten to fight for custody of Caylee and kick Casey out---THAT would trigger RAGE like no other, imo.

Casey had nothing REAL in her life except her home on Hopesprings Drive. Every thing she had came from there. That is where she stole money to live on, where she got everything she needed, the only people she relied upon. If they actually kicked her to the curb she had nothing left. She would lose everything, including Tony and her friends. How could she possibly tell them she lost custody of her kid and lost contact with her family. " How would that look?"

I really want to know if there was a fight that night. If so, that is a motive the jury can understand, imo

CA publicly already explained it on TV shows....KC took Caylee, they needed some bonding time. She seems to deny any fight that took plac but I find it hard to believe CA didnt yell and scream when she found out about the stolen money. I dont understand why she denies any fight. It would be reasonable, any parent would be furious.

 

[Scamperoo]

Legal commentators on every channel keep harping on two huge problems with the SA's case:

(1) There is no proof of how Caylee died (Cause of Death). We'll ignore this here.

(2) KC had no real, compelling motive to murder Caylee. If KC wanted to be free and "single" all she had to do was give Caylee to doting grandparents, Cindy and George, to raise.

This week, the jurors heard a tape in which KC herself tells YM that if she wanted to be rid of Caylee, she'd have given Caylee to Cindy to raise--and that will surely make sense to the jurors.

I'm afraid that if jurors aren't made aware of the truly toxic, combative relationship between KC and Cindy, these jurors will never be "convinced beyond a reasonable doubt" that KC could, would, and did murder Caylee.

Do you think the SA is going to bring out the truth about KC's battles with Cindy? Are there any witnesses who could testify to this? Who are they? What could they describe--and will they do it or become foregetful? Is there any sworn testimony on anyone's deposition that could be used to force them to testify? What are the chances that Cindy or George would admit the truth if re-called to testify?

Right now, I can only think of one person with firsthand knowledge who'd be willing to testify, and that's the neighbor who loaned KC the shovel. He said he heard screaming matches with KC doing the screaming.

RBBM I don't think the jury are going to take into account anything KC says, while, when a statement is cherry picked it may sound credible, along side statements like "don't you think I'd tell you if I knew where she was" "all I want to do is find that little girl and bring her home" "all they want is Caylee" and the 5 fingers you are the thumb statement....they are collectively damning.
I feel the motive is plain to see, she wanted her place back in the family, didn't want to share her parents love and adoration with another so she killed Caylee. She had no intention of handing over her daughter and being usurped by a snot head, even her own child.

Also, if you look at her behavior since Caylee was born, like the stealing from family members ect. She didn't care what attention she was getting, even negative attention bought her into the spotlight. When that stopped working and she was told she had to find somewhere else to live, she killed Caylee.

 

[feddup]

I dont think any mention of KC;s stealing is allowed in, it would be "prejudicial" so that is maybe why we dont hear about alleged fight the night before and KC and Caylee left next day?

 

[JusticeSeeker1960]

I dont think any mention of KC;s stealing is allowed in, it would be "prejudicial" so that is maybe why we dont hear about alleged fight the night before and KC and Caylee left next day?

With the exception of the initial 911 call Cindy made? I know YM questioned her about the car & money when he first got there...but, the rest won't be.

 

[azwriter]

I have also wondered if the SA was going to present any evidence along this line of thought. Throughout the presentation of KC's behavior, there were hints of the KC-CA conflict, particularly from Amy who verbalized KC as calling her mom crazy and her witnessing their interaction the night of July 15. Then we have Lee, who reported that CA had called KC an unfit mother, and then there is KC stating maybe she is a spiteful beotch. This, of course, is not enough alone for the jury to have as much insight as we have had over the last 3 years. Since the SA does not have to prove motive, and we are heading into the scientific evidence leg of the SA case, I'm doubting that anything will be introduced. For one thing, the only evidence they can access is from the neighbors. The neighbors would not know the intricacies of the argument and would probably carry little weight, and objections by the defense on grounds of relevancy may be sustained. CA has denied these events, and KC can only be called to the stand by the DT. SA questions on cross will be limited to what the DT brings up on direct, so IMO, it's unlikely any of this will be introduced. Unfortunately.

Are we going to hear from Cindy's co-workers. I think CA took quite a bit of her troubles to her place of employment and perhaps share a lot with her own mother. jmo

 

[Puzzler]

There is an Anthony family home video that shows Casey holding Caylee, while standing in the kitchen of the Anthony home. Many of you will recognize the video I am referring to, and I would be grateful if someone could post it here, as I just can't seem to find it.

Video clip:
In a seemingly light-hearted moment , Cindy smashes some cake in Casey's face. In retaliation, Casey smashes cake into Caylee's face. It would seem the natural reaction would be to 'target' Cindy directly, but instead Casey goes after the defenseless toddler.

To me, that exemplifies the dynamics between Casey and her mother:
~Cindy 'hurts' Casey, Casey 'gets back at her' by hurting Caylee.

It may seem simplistic, but that was my first impression upon seeing that particular video when it was released a couple of years ago.

I came to the exact same conclusion! That video creeped me out from the first day I saw it, and I think it showed the dynamic between the three CMAs perfectly. (no video link atm, sorry)

At this point, I'm actually very worried about the trial. SA hasn't focused on motive at all, nor the emotional dynamics of the Anthony family. I know they're not required to show motive, but in a case with this many open questions, I believe it's a serious error not to. Without a clear understanding of motive, the jury may well have enough reasonable doubt to acquit.

If I were fresh to the case and sitting on that jury, seeing only what they are seeing, I might be willing to think a tragic accident happened that ICA covered up in a particularly horrible way. She's clearly a pathological liar, but that began long before Caylee disappeared and seems like her preferred method for dealing with troublesome things. Things that might well include an accidental drowning she was afraid to disclose to her family. The GA story would seem like more of her desperate lies to me, but the line that "your mother will never forgive you!" (paraphrased) would probably ring true. Not as something GA would say, but as something ICA actually said to herself before beginning her cover-up and flight into fantasy. (Please remember I'm speaking as a hypothetical juror here, my actual opinion is that's she's guilty of first degree murder.)

IMO, all the SA has proven beyond a reasonable doubt so far is that ICA is a pathological liar and that Caylee died in mid June and her body was improperly dealt with. That's just not enough for a murder conviction, unless the jury makes its decision on more than just the facts the State appears to be marshalling. I would be heartbroken, but not surprised at this point, to see an acquittal. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a mistrial due to jury deadlock or even an overturned conviction due to ineffective counsel.

Here's hoping I'm wrong, and we see justice for little Caylee soon!

EDIT: I found the video link: http://www.wftv.com/video/17398425/index.html

 

[azwriter]

Everything you need to know about ICA can be seen on (1) her first video appearance when she was first arrested, wearing the blue hoodie- she smirks, and (2)her first phone call home from Jail.

Listen to her as she speaks to her mother from Jail, the contempt and loathing she feels for Cindy just drips off her.

That's all the psychological assessment needed.

Great insight there ZsaZsa. Casey's has vindictiveness written all over her. In the package her attorneys have put together for her defense we can see that it wasn't enough to claim an accidential death, (which might have been a great defense). But the defense has thrown in information that George molested Casey from an early age. Where did they get this claim? From Casey. To me that's a sign that she wanted to get back at her father possibly for his testimony with the Grand Jury. And when she learned of his interviews with detectives about the smell in the car; He laid the death smell, which he was familiar with, right at the officials feet. Casey wants revenge and putting her father in the middle of the cover-up, she thinks she can get it. In a long way around, involving George can also allow her to get back at her mother. jmo

 

[katydid23]

I came to the exact same conclusion! That video creeped me out from the first day I saw it, and I think it showed the dynamic between the three CMAs perfectly. (no video link atm, sorry)

At this point, I'm actually very worried about the trial. SA hasn't focused on motive at all, nor the emotional dynamics of the Anthony family. I know they're not required to show motive, but in a case with this many open questions, I believe it's a serious error not to. Without a clear understanding of motive, the jury may well have enough reasonable doubt to acquit.

If I were fresh to the case and sitting on that jury, seeing only what they are seeing, I might be willing to think a tragic accident happened that ICA covered up in a particularly horrible way. She's clearly a pathological liar, but that began long before Caylee disappeared and seems like her preferred method for dealing with troublesome things. Things that might well include an accidental drowning she was afraid to disclose to her family. The GA story would seem like more of her desperate lies to me, but the line that "your mother will never forgive you!" (paraphrased) would probably ring true. Not as something GA would say, but as something ICA actually said to herself before beginning her cover-up and flight into fantasy. (Please remember I'm speaking as a hypothetical juror here, my actual opinion is that's she's guilty of first degree murder.)

IMO, all the SA has proven beyond a reasonable doubt so far is that ICA is a pathological liar and that Caylee died in mid June and her body was improperly dealt with. That's just not enough for a murder conviction, unless the jury makes its decision on more than just the facts the State appears to be marshalling. I would be heartbroken, but not surprised at this point, to see an acquittal. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a mistrial due to jury deadlock or even an overturned conviction due to ineffective counsel.

Here's hoping I'm wrong, and we see justice for little Caylee soon!

Why would it be an acquittal if they thought she was covering up an accident?
She could still be up for negligent manslaughter which also has a very stiff sentence.

I do not see an acquittal coming for her. There will be too much anger and disdain felt for this young mother who ruined so many lives in her own selfish wake.

ETA:
I doubt there will be a hung jury because the jurors LOVE Judge Perry. I do not think they will allow that to happen to him. They will power their way through the deliberations out of respect for him, imo.
Nor do I think it will be overturned on ineffective counsel. She has 7 attorneys at the table with her, and Mason is very well respected and experienced. And ineffective counsel usually is upheld when an attorney DOES NOTHING to help, like makes no motions, no arguments, no objections. Baez has done all of those things.

 

[azwriter]

).




snipped for space and BBM::
Maybe what I'm saying is that ICA herself is coming across just splendidly as someone who is calculating, vengeful and capable of doing anything at all to punish her parents, including throwing them under the bus for an "accident" after the fact. I just don't think motive will be a problem for them at all, even if they don't really know how bad it was between the two women.

I think this part of your post cecybeans more than says it all. Watching Casey on videos and her true life reactions in court are the best window the jury can have into the kind of cruel, coldhearted person ICA is. Actions do speak louder than words! jmo