Conrad Murray trial -Day three.

[Callie]

I have seen this on the programs too, that is one of the reasons I posted this. You do NOT call 911 first because with a person in distress every second counts and it could be the difference of life or death.[SNIP]

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000013.htm

CPR - adult

CPR is a lifesaving procedure that is performed when someone's breathing or heartbeat has stopped, as in cases of electric shock, drowning, or heart attack. CPR is a combination of:

Rescue breathing, which provides oxygen to a person's lungs.
Chest compressions, which keep the person's blood circulating.

Permanent brain damage or death can occur within minutes if a person's blood flow stops. Therefore, you must continue these procedures until the person's heartbeat and breathing return, or trained medical help arrives.
Considerations

CPR can be lifesaving, but it is best performed by those who have been trained in an accredited CPR course. The procedures described here are not a substitute for CPR training. The newest techniques emphasize compression over rescue breathing and airway, reversing long-standing practice. See www.americanheart.org for classes near you.

Time is very important when an unconscious person is not breathing. Permanent brain damage begins after only 4 minutes without oxygen, and death can occur as soon as 4 - 6 minutes later.

When someone starts CPR before emergency support arrives, the patient has a much greater chance of surviving. Yet, when most emergency workers arrive at a cardiac arrest, they usually find no one giving CPR.

Machines called automated external defibrillators (AEDs) can be found in many public places, and are available for home use. These machines have pads or paddles to place on the chest during a life-threatening emergency. They automatically check the heart rhythm and give a sudden shock if, and only if, that shock is needed to get the heart back into the right rhythm. When using an AED, follow the instructions exactly.
Causes

In adults, major reasons that heartbeat and breathing stop include:

Drug overdose
Excessive bleeding
Heart disease (heart attack or abnormal heart rhythm)
Infection in the bloodstream (sepsis)
Injuries and accidents

Symptoms

No breathing or difficulty breathing (gasping)
No pulse
Unconsciousness

First Aid

The following steps are based on instructions from the American Heart Association.

Check for responsiveness. Shake or tap the person gently. See if the person moves or makes a noise. Shout, "Are you OK?"
Call 911 if there is no response. Shout for help and send someone to call 911. If you are alone, call 911 and retrieve an AED (if available), even if you have to leave the person.
Carefully place the person on their back. If there is a chance the person has a spinal injury, two people should move the person to prevent the head and neck from twisting.
Open the airway. Lift up the chin with two fingers. At the same time, tilt the head by pushing down on the forehead with the other hand.
Look, listen, and feel for breathing. Place your ear close to the person's mouth and nose. Watch for chest movement. Feel for breath on your cheek.
If the person is not breathing or has trouble breathing:
Cover their mouth tightly with your mouth.
Pinch the nose closed.
Keep the chin lifted and head tilted.
Give two rescue breaths. Each breath should take about a second and make the chest rise.
Perform chest compressions:
Place the heel of one hand on the breastbone -- right between the nipples.
Place the heel of your other hand on top of the first hand.
Position your body directly over your hands.
Give 30 chest compressions. These compressions should be FAST and hard. Press down about 2 inches into the chest. Each time, let the chest rise completely. Count the 30 compressions quickly: "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30, off."
Give the person 2 more breaths. The chest should rise.
Continue CPR (30 chest compressions followed by 2 breaths, then repeat) until the person recovers or help arrives. If an AED for adults is available, use it as soon as possible.

If the person starts breathing again, place them in the recovery position. Periodically re-check for breathing until help arrives.
DO NOT

If the person has normal breathing, coughing, or movement, DO NOT begin chest compressions. Doing so may cause the heart to stop beating.
Unless you are a health professional, DO NOT check for a pulse. Only a health care professional is properly trained to check for a pulse.

When to Contact a Medical Professional
If you have help, tell one person to call 911 while another person begins CPR.
If you are alone, as soon as you determine that the person is unresponsive, call 911 immediately. Then begin CPR.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Wait...I thought that MJ first met CM in Vegas when one of the children was sick. Did the introduction at that time come through Jermaine to treat one of the children?

That's what I heard from two different big MJ fans. Sorry I don't have a link. Online I have seen it said it was one of his security team that knew CM and called him in Vegas. No name is given though.

 

[rose222]

I said I wouldn't follow another case after the disaster that was the KC trial. But here I am.

I've often felt sorry for Michael Jackson. He had everything the world says you need to be happy including wealth, power, fame and look where it got him. His own family (excluding his kids) wanted his money more than anything else. Michael Jackson's tragic life only serves to confirm my belief that money, fame and too much wealth are not only not necessities for a peaceful and happy life but hindrances.

 

[21merc7]

I'm just catching up so not quite through here.

As far as Kai Chase continuing to cook: MJ did not allow anyone upstairs. He had to give permission, so all that staff stayed downstairs. I would have just kept cooking too. It soothes when nervous and gives you an excuse to stay out of personal business. Dr. Murray did not tell her MJ was dead, so she had no need to react otherwise.

How far is the bedroom to the kitchen? That was a big house, and that was stupid when Dr. M had a cell phone as he was talking to women and texting them. That is odd.

To the poster that said their friend owns the house. Price is obviously going to be too high for the average person, so it would have to be a star or wanna be star. In that case, no one wants it because the entire world now knows where it is. Some stars may be superstitious to, which is really silly to me, but it is mostly b/c there is no hiding out in a house now well known. Something will work out for your friend eventually, but sadly no time soon.

 

[21merc7]

Here is the list of drugs found in bags in the closet obtained from SW.

http://www.radaronline.com/sites/def...20Warrants.pdf

1 box star line blood pressure cuffs
3-10 mg/ml 1% lydocaine vials (2 empty, 1-3/4 full)
1-empty bottle propofol 200 mg
1-pulse monometer
1 empty vial lorazepam 4mg
Outer wrappings for catheter
2-empty vials midazolam 10mg
1 empty I.V. 9% sodium chloride
1 empty vial propofol 1g/100ml
1 dark blue costco bag
1 black nylon bag
1 light blue canvass bag
1 vial propofol 200mg
1 tube Bg-KA-RA .025%
1 vial lydocaine
1 pill bottle with 13 tablets containing 25mg ephedrine, 200 mg caffeine, 80mg aspirin
5 business cards in name of Dr. Conrad Murray
1 bottle Bausch and Lomb eyedrops
4 vials propofol 200mg/20ml
2 vials .5mg flumazenil
1 vial 10mg midazolam
1 vial 4mg lorazepam
1 vial lidocane
2- 100ml vials of propofol
2- 200mg vials of propofol (1 full, 1-1/4 full)
1-1/2 vial of Lorazepam
1-1/4 vial of flumazenil .5mg
1 empty vial of 10mg midazolam
1 zip lock baggy containing 19 tubes hydroquinone 8%
1 empty bag I. V. drip of sodium chloride with syringe
1 ziplock baggy containing 18 tubes of Benoquin 20%

No matter how you slice it thats alot of empty Propofol vials and Versed and Ativan.

jmho

Thanks for posting these, and these are just the drugs found in the bag! Still a bad mixture of stuff to keep going and then to go to "sleep." Crazy medicating going on there.

The rather large amount of propofol is shocking though. We know MJ died b/c of it, but my word! I hope I don't miss the experts explaining it all, both sides, b/c that is just not okay no matter how you look at it. (Too many go to sleep drugs, man oh man. I have no idea how MJ was even functioning, I can't even take Tylenol P.M. without getting violently ill.)

 

[EPfan]

I got this info off of the Red Cross Web Site for CPR. (Red Cross is where I have my certification)
I gather they are saying check the person and start the process and somehow don't forget to call EMS. As for me, if you find me falling out, please do CPR first, then call 911, when you know I might make it!! I live in TX and you know how slow we talk with our TX draaaaw, 911 can take awhile and I'll be DOA by the time they hang up!!!! I do remember my instructor saying if you know CPR, save the life.
This isn't a joking matter and in the scenario CM had plenty of people around to call 911.



Steps for Performing CPR

The main objectives of conventional cardiopulmonary resuscitation are restoring normal blood circulation and breathing of an unconscious person, and avoiding brain damage. Generally performed by qualified medical practitioners, a layman can also carry out the same in emergency cases. Before, this medical process involved clearing of the airway, mouth-to-mouth rescue breathing and finally, chest compression. However, the American Heart Association (AHA) makes changes in the previous CPR technique in 2010, after giving due importance to chest compressions.

According to the latest update, chest compressions are given first, followed by clearing of the airways and rescue breathing. Before administering CPR, allow the person to lie on his/her back, and try to wake him/her up. Check whether the person is conscious or unconscious. A simple way is to check pulse in the wrist or neck. If it is confirmed that he/she is in unconscious state, then you can proceed with CPR steps. But, do not forget to call emergency medical services (EMS). The recommended cardiopulmonary resuscitation guidelines for children and adults are different from each other. Let’s see the basic steps concerning how to perform CPR in adults.

Step # 1: Give Chest Compressions
Start with chest compressions in order to restore blood circulation of the person. For this, kneel at the side of the person and place the heel of your hand in the middle of the chest (exactly between the nipples). Then, put your other hand on the top of the first hand with the fingers interlacing each other. Make sure your elbows are straight and the shoulders are directly above the hand.

Hoping that you have positioned your hands perfectly, gently compress the chest of the victim to about 5 cm (or 2 inches). While giving chest compression, push hard and fast at a rate of about 2 per second. Repeat the compression for 30 times, allowing the chest to come to its original position in between two pushes. The ideal rate for chest compression is 50 per 30 seconds. Thus, doing for 30 times will take around 18 seconds.

Step # 2: Clear the Airway
The second step in performing CPR is to open the airway of the person. To achieve this, put your palm on the forehead and carefully tilt the head back. Gently lift the chin forward with your other hand, and try to feel the person’s breath in your ears and cheek. Also, look if there is any chest movement. This method of tilting head and lifting chin is an easy approach to open up the airways.

Step # 3: Give Rescue Breaths
If the person is not breathing properly, pinch the nostrils and seal his/her mouth with yours. Now, you can give a mouth-to-mouth breathing for 1 second. This rescue breathing step should be done gently, just to ensure that air makes its way to the lungs directly and not to the stomach. Check for any rise of the chest; if yes, let the chest fall and give a second rescue breath.

Step # 4: Again Airway and Breathing
In case, if the chest doesn’t rise after giving the first rescue breath, you should repeat the step of clearing the airway (head-tilt, chin-rise) position and do mouth-to-mouth breathing again. If the mouth is injured, one can give mouth-to-nose breathing too. Or a better alternative is to keep a mouth barrier (if available) and continue giving two rescue breaths. This is the completion of the first cycle.

Step # 5: Repeat the CPR Cycle
You can start with the second cycle again. Proceed with chest compressions in the same manner as stated in step 1. After this, open airway and provide 2 rescue breaths successively. Try repeating the steps of 30 compressions for five times and two rescue breathings. This whole process will take approximately 2 minutes. Now, check if the person starts breathing or not. In case the person is still not breathing, repeat the procedure all over again until help arrives.

The above steps to performing CPR can be remembered as CAB in shortcut form, i.e. Circulation restoring by chest compression, Airway clearing and Breathing for the patient. Knowing these simple first aid steps of CPR can certainly save people in case of a cardiac or respiratory arrest. As for performing CPR in children, only one hand is employed for doing chest compressions. Though the basic instructions of compression and rescue breathing remain the same, consider learning accurate tips for administering cardiopulmonary resuscitation in kids.

To conclude with, if you are not trained enough or are not confident to do conventional cardiopulmonary resuscitation, administer hands-only CPR, which means giving uninterrupted chest compressions at a speed of 50 pushes per 30 seconds. It is stated that chest compressions are more important than rescue breaths, especially for patients with cardiac arrest complications. Hence, perform CPR without rescue breaths instead of doing nothing for the patient.
By Ningthoujam Sandhyarani
Last Updated: 8/22/2011

 

[EPfan]

I said I wouldn't follow another case after the disaster that was the KC trial. But here I am.

I've often felt sorry for Michael Jackson. He had everything the world says you need to be happy including wealth, power, fame and look where it got him. His own family (excluding his kids) wanted his money more than anything else. Michael Jackson's tragic life only serves to confirm my belief that money, fame and too much wealth are not only not necessities for a peaceful and happy life but hindrances.

I know what you mean about getting involved in these cases. I quit following cases for about 6 years and then Anthony trial came along. I like to just keep an open mind and follow the evidence that is provided in the trial only and pretend I'm on the jury. I know people here don't always agree with me but that is what I like to do.
I have been listening to TV on this case (MJ/CM) so I'm not just following evidence and it's a little different.
As far as fame, and money goes, it is really a shame how many stars aren't happy and for some reason turn to drugs. I haven't ever been in their shoes but maybe it's the seclusion in part that gets to them. I kept seeing the pictures of the mansion that MJ was living in and thinking that it was a shame that he couldn't enjoy his environment and his children. Being an addict is absolutely a horrible thing.

 

[*~Aimee~*]

I have seen this on the programs too, that is one of the reasons I posted this. You do NOT call 911 first because with a person in distress every second counts and it could be the difference of life or death. When you call 911 it takes several minutes to answer their questions and get them on their way to you, those minutes would be crucial to the patient. Also if no oxygen is going to the brain it can cause problems also. You cal out for someone to call 911. If there isn't anyone to call 911, you wait until you think the patient is stable enough that you can let up enough to call 911. (or unfortunately the patient isn't coming around and you feel you should call 911) then after your call you resume your CPR, you never should stop trying to revive the person until EMS arrives and they take over, because they have the equipment that normally you don't at home or where ever you are at. I hope someone else steps up and clears this up because there many people watching and they are getting the wrong info on some of the shows.

once you start compressions you are not to stop until you are relieved by someone else due to you being too tired. So you call 911 first (as a RN I say this) - most important observe scene if in dangerous area (like live wires) due not attempt because you need to stay alive and not have 2 down. So observe scene - look at pt and assess - see not breathing/heart beat - call 911 - start compressions.

Dr Murray didn't even do compressions right - one handed on soft surface. you need 2 hands and back board (If no back board then floor - also in some hospitals/nursing homes the foot board comes off bed to use as back board quickly). Being he was a cardiologist he should of known this unless he got his dr license in a cracker jack box!)

 

[*~Aimee~*]

OK...so not testified at this trial yet, right? Ugh! I told myself I wouldn't get hooked but here I am.:banghead:

just like me UGH lmao!!

 

[21merc7]

BBM

I've seen several doctors interviewed lately, most recently tonight (Dr.Gupta on CNN) say that is not the case. He said you ALWAYS call 911 first then administer CPR. He said you get the emergency help/equipment on the way first then start doing what you are capable of doing until they arrive. He said losing crucial time of them not being on their way immediately is sometimes the difference between life and death of the patient. Dr.Gupta said 911 should have been Dr.Murray's first call immediately when he went in the room and saw there was a problem.

I would think Dr. Gupta and any others suggesting calling 911 first would be b/c many people do not know CPR and even if they do, they have never performed it on a person, just on the dummy in the class. The 911 phone operator can help instruct for CPR and keep the caller calm enough to begin until an ambulance arrives.

Personally, I would call 911 if a phone was right there. I haven't been trained for CPR in nearly 30 years, 28 to be exact, (I even think the method has changed since then) and would need them to guide me. If no phone right there, I would do the best I could until further helped arrived as there are merely minutes to save someone.

Dr. Murray knew MJ was dead before any calls began. He knew when he took that first glance after he administered propofol and started talking to girlfriends. He knew there was no saving him, therefore he did not try, he ran around the house talking with the Chef and calling children for witnesses to say he tried. He did not want to call an ambulance for a dead man on his watch, much less one of such fame.

 

[*~Aimee~*]

Yesterday, I think it was yesterday, the security guy was asked if the police came to the gate would someone let them in, he answered no they would not get in without security or MJ okeying it so maybe an ambulance would not have gotten onto the property without the ok either. But I would think someone could have oked it while the Dr. hung over the balcony waiting for someone to come. Perhaps the Dr. should have told the personal assistant that it was more than a bad reaction thing going on. Then he could have called 911. But I don't think anyone was going to save MJ anyway, it was too late by the time the Dr. realized he wasn't breathing. My opinion only.

I agree - he walked in and he was gone/probably cold to touch and too late to help.

 

[*~Aimee~*]

Another little bugger, I am suspicious of is the doc asking for a 2nd doctor "in case he was tired." Come on. He knew he was hired to be up all night, every night for the duration of the tour. He was not hired to be up all day. Maybe the doctor still wanted some night time for his girlfriends, or maybe he wanted someone that really knew how to be a doctor, or maybe he wanted his own fall guy, IDK, but it seemed odd to refuse a nurse.

What cardiologist does not know CPR?

one who obtained a license in a cracker jack box. He is dumb!!

 

[Talina]

Another little bugger, I am suspicious of is the doc asking for a 2nd doctor "in case he was tired." Come on. He knew he was hired to be up all night, every night for the duration of the tour. He was not hired to be up all day. Maybe the doctor still wanted some night time for his girlfriends, or maybe he wanted someone that really knew how to be a doctor, or maybe he wanted his own fall guy, IDK, but it seemed odd to refuse a nurse.

What cardiologist does not know CPR?

BBM

IIRC, the testimony from AEG Live's atty was that the contract originally called for a nurse. He asked that it be changed to assistant so that it could include a doctor if needed at any point (one of the reasons given was what you state above). The atty also asked him how he was going to handle practicing medicine in a location where he was not licensed (paraphrasing here) and he said she didn't need to concern herself with that, he'd get it worked out (paraphrasing again).

Last night on Dr. Drew he had a guest on that was a doctor, spoke with a British or similar accent. I didn't catch his name as I tuned in right after the interview had started. The doctor said that a few days before MJ's death, that MJ had called him asking about Dr. Murray being able to practice medicine in England. The dr. said he had done some checking on Dr.Murray and he was not licensed in Ireland or England (either of which would have been sufficient from what I gathered from what the dr said) and that without that, Dr. Murray could not legally perform any type of private or public medical function at all in England so he had no idea what Dr.Murray thought he as doing.

Well...fast forward now to the revision Dr. Murray asked to be made in the contract. He knew he was not legally in England able to be a doctor to MJ so he was going to have to hire a local physician to do what he was being paid $150,000 per month to do and then AEG Live (or MJ in the long run) would also have to pay this doctor that Dr. Murray was going to have to hire. What a scam artist he is appearing to be to me.

IMO

 

[21merc7]

BBM

IIRC, the testimony from AEG Live's atty was that the contract originally called for a nurse. He asked that it be changed to assistant so that it could include a doctor if needed at any point (one of the reasons given was what you state above). The atty also asked him how he was going to handle practicing medicine in a location where he was not licensed (paraphrasing here) and he said she didn't need to concern herself with that, he'd get it worked out (paraphrasing again).

Last night on Dr. Drew he had a guest on that was a doctor, spoke with a British or similar accent. I didn't catch his name as I tuned in right after the interview had started. The doctor said that a few days before MJ's death, that MJ had called him asking about Dr. Murray being able to practice medicine in England. The dr. said he had done some checking on Dr.Murray and he was not licensed in Ireland or England (either of which would have been sufficient from what I gathered from what the dr said) and that without that, Dr. Murray could not legally perform any type of private or public medical function at all in England so he had no idea what Dr.Murray thought he as doing.

Well...fast forward now to the revision Dr. Murray asked to be made in the contract. He knew he was not legally in England able to be a doctor to MJ so he was going to have to hire a local physician to do what he was being paid $150,000 per month to do and then AEG Live (or MJ in the long run) would also have to pay this doctor that Dr. Murray was going to have to hire. What a scam artist he is appearing to be to me.

IMO

Good thinking! I had not made it that far in the process, I was just thinking this doc knew he was not a good enough doc for what was being asked of him.

That line of thinking, along with MJ and AEG never signing the contract, and the phone call you mention above, tells me something is rotten and it was already suspected.

 

[*~Aimee~*]

Me too. In the CFCMA trial, I believe I went in prolly knowing more than the judge did

In this case, I didn't watch anything after that funeral either.

From what little I did hear, Dr. Feelgood is definitly guilty in my eyes. I'll have to wait until the defense puts on their case though - should be inneresting.

MOO

Mel

So what is everyone's opinoin will Dr Murray testify?? I say no.

 

[Talina]

I would think Dr. Gupta and any others suggesting calling 911 first would be b/c many people do not know CPR and even if they do, they have never performed it on a person, just on the dummy in the class. The 911 phone operator can help instruct for CPR and keep the caller calm enough to begin until an ambulance arrives.

Personally, I would call 911 if a phone was right there. I haven't been trained for CPR in nearly 30 years, 28 to be exact, (I even think the method has changed since then) and would need them to guide me. If no phone right there, I would do the best I could until further helped arrived as there are merely minutes to save someone.

Dr. Murray knew MJ was dead before any calls began. He knew when he took that first glance after he administered propofol and started talking to girlfriends. He knew there was no saving him, therefore he did not try, he ran around the house talking with the Chef and calling children for witnesses to say he tried. He did not want to call an ambulance for a dead man on his watch, much less one of such fame.

For the most part, this might be true; however, Dr. Gupta said that even Dr.s know to call 911 first before beginning CPR so that help is on the way that has the emergency equipment while you are then doing CPR to hopefully keep the patient alive in the mean time. He referred to it as being as basic knowledge as CPR 101 for all Drs. to know this.

Nonetheless, I am still of the opinion that in the case of MJ, it likely would not have mattered at all. Unless the defense has something to change my mind at this point, I do not believe MJ was alive when Dr. Murray first discovered there was a problem. I believe all his phone calls, running around hollering for people to come to the room (Price for heavens sake makes no sense whatsoever unless he just wanted one more witness to see him "trying" to resuscitate) was all a show that he concocted up.

 

[Soulmagent]

So what is everyone's opinoin will Dr Murray testify?? I say no.

I havent even got that far in my thinking about the trial!

I guess because I am only watching the trial and not reading the news or anything. Nothing I have in court has made me want to hear what he has to say so far. Excluding what is mentioned in trial threads here about it.

As a juror (the pretend one I am being ) I dont think there is anything he can say about what has been outed in court so far that he could possibly explain with testimony.

His medical knowledge triumphs all the emotional impact he could have been feeling. Plus he knew what could happen when he took the steps he took. The statements made to LE I heard in opening show him admitting to them.

So I think he is going to have to testify. Otherwise he runs the risk of the jurors staying with these thoughts. The witnesses are not overshadowing these issues. He will have to do it himself.

So I say Yes he will.

 

[Talina]

So what is everyone's opinoin will Dr Murray testify?? I say no.

I was thinking before yesterday there was no way he would get on that stand.

Now, though, I wonder how on earth his defense team is able to counter anything that Alvarez testified as to what happened in that room with the bag, vials, IV bag with bottle, etc if he does not get on the stand. There were no other witnesses and the cross examination of Alvarez did not, IMO, damage his testimony or his credibility.

Right now, I'm thinking 50/50 chance that he'll testify.

 

[21merc7]

So what is everyone's opinoin will Dr Murray testify?? I say no.

I am sure his attorneys do NOT want him on the stand. It is a defense attorney nightmare to ever put a defendant on the stand, much less one you know is culpable anyhow.

If Dr. Murray feels he needs to testify and pushes it, or if for any off the wall reason the defense feels it may be helpful in this case, the prosecution will tear him apart. The man was on the phone not paying attention to his patient after administering propofol. Be it rigged up or not, you just don't do that. Not to mention the combo of drugs given. No way, no how. None of it. I don't care if Murray cries and apologizes, says MJ did it himself when he turned away to make phone calls, the man turned away at a crucial time when you are NEVER to turn away.

So, what could the Dr. say in his defense?

 

[*~Aimee~*]

They didn't have a land line. Did Dr. Murray have a cell phone? The chef did. In her pocket.

yes he did - remember he left room to talk to mistress. So he was on a phone. Also called personal attendant instead of 911. That was when he should of called 911 and then start compressions.