trial thread: 04/03/2012

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First of all, this is strictly hearsay, contradicted later by the woman who said it, not admitted into evidence, and therefore, according to Salem's post #729 on 04/01/12, not "on the table". If this woman testifies in court, swearing that it happened, we would have one person's testimony that MTR engaged in what some people consider "abnormal" sex.

Secondly, if everyone in the world who engaged in moderate, consensual, sado-masochistic sex were lined up in a straight line, it would be a very long one indeed. And I'd bet very few of them would also be guilty of being pedophilic rapists.

Personally, I need more to convince me that MTR sexually assaulted Tori. I do not doubt that he was there. I do not doubt that he helped cover up the crime. I do not doubt that he lied to LE about his involvement. I do not doubt that he's a coward. (I'd say more, but there's a rule about name-calling.) But I do have doubts about this alleged sexual assault. I'm waiting to see what other evidence is forthcoming.

JMO

This whole choking/sex theory.... to me, if it was a factor - he would have choked or strangled... if he were the murderer... not a brutal blugeoning death. Why deal with all of the blood... why not just smother with the garbage bags. Sorry to be so graphic -- just some questions in my head. I do believe it was TLM who used the hammer. JMO
 
800_tori_stafford_earing_cp_120403.jpg


A butterfly earring worn by Victoria Stafford is shown in this evidence photo at the trial of Michael Rafferty on Tuesday, April 3, 2012. (HO / THE CANADIAN PRESS)


http://m.ctv.ca/topstories/20120403/stafford-judge-jury-autopsy-photos-120403.html
 
BBM

I must say that this baffles me. How much more evidence can we possibly get here considering what we've heard so far?

We have direct evidence from a witness that the reason for the abduction was for sexual purposes. We have no evidence that it was for any other purpose. We have direct evidence from a witness at the scene that a sexual assault occured...twice... on the backseat of the car. We have circumstantial evidence that the back seat of the car is missing and the defendent refused to co-operate with LE in either producing that back seat or leading them to the crime scene even though his lawyer has suggested that he did in fact drive there that day and was present at least for the disposal of the body. And because of that refusal to lead them to the crime scene, the body of the victim was too far decomposed by the time they did find her, based on information again provided by TLM only, to either rule in or rule out a sexual assault. And of course more circumstantial evidence that the victim was found without any clothing from the waist down.

We're not going to get a video of the crime. We're not going to get DNA evidence due to the length of time the body was exposed to the elements. Apparently we're not going to ever see that back seat show up as evidence.

The only thing we may get is direct testimony from MR himself to attempt to explain everything away, subject to an extensive cross examination. Then it will be his word against hers. Two proven liars. So the circumstantial evidence and common sense might be the deciding factor. This isn't a TV show, it's real life. And people tend to try to cover up their crimes as best as they can. So a jury can only make a determination based on the evidence that can be found and presented. And so far, IMO, there is more evidence presented that a sexual assault did occur than not.

MOO

Sorry to baffle you... I just am having a difficult time taking TLM's word
 
Thus far and for awhile longer, we only have the Crown version of events, based in a large part by the questionable testimony of TLM. and we have a broad outlline of where the defense theory may lead.

The Crown will produce more evidence to support the charges, and then the defense will begin their case on behalf of the accused.

I am surprised at this point, that Mr. Derstine hasn't put up much opposition, or asked many questions of Crown witnesses, but thus far the Crown witnesses haven't particularly hurt the alternate theory advanced by the defense.........so why would he take issue with it?

I am also surprised in the testimony of today..........where Derstine questioned the placement of several things on the map drawn by McClintic. The jury was at the scene..........and Mr. Derstine is a smart guy. I doubt he would argue something that the jurors themselves would know to be false.

The testimony of the pathologist seemed to bolster the defense theory more than the Crowns. It was his professional opinion as an expert, and both the Crown and defense acknowledged him as an expert, there was no evidence of a sexual assault.

He couldn't say an assault never took place, but only that there was no evidence that it did. That testimony didn't particularly aid the Crown, who do have to prove that a sexual assault took place. IMO.

At this point, I think it impossible to make a judgement on guilt or innocence, but feel the Crown still has a long ways to go to meet the threshold of proof of guilt (which as I understand it includes "intent") beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is especially true, knowing the defense will be given a chance to refute all the evidence presented by the Crown and they will make an impact, however large or small. JMO
 
BBM

I must say that this baffles me. How much more evidence can we possibly get here considering what we've heard so far?

We have direct evidence from a witness that the reason for the abduction was for sexual purposes. We have no evidence that it was for any other purpose. We have direct evidence from a witness at the scene that a sexual assault occured...twice... on the backseat of the car. We have circumstantial evidence that the back seat of the car is missing and the defendent refused to co-operate with LE in either producing that back seat or leading them to the crime scene even though his lawyer has suggested that he did in fact drive there that day and was present at least for the disposal of the body. And because of that refusal to lead them to the crime scene, the body of the victim was too far decomposed by the time they did find her, based on information again provided by TLM only, to either rule in or rule out a sexual assault. And of course more circumstantial evidence that the victim was found without any clothing from the waist down.

We're not going to get a video of the crime. We're not going to get DNA evidence due to the length of time the body was exposed to the elements. Apparently we're not going to ever see that back seat show up as evidence.

The only thing we may get is direct testimony from MR himself to attempt to explain everything away, subject to an extensive cross examination. Then it will be his word against hers. Two proven liars. So the circumstantial evidence and common sense might be the deciding factor. This isn't a TV show, it's real life. And people tend to try to cover up their crimes as best as they can. So a jury can only make a determination based on the evidence that can be found and presented. And so far, IMO, there is more evidence presented that a sexual assault did occur than not.

MOO

so then it's down to the wire which of the "two liars" (your words not mine, just quoting them) that the jury believes...:moo:
 
Will Derstine even cross examine the pathologist? I doubt it. JMO
 
I am far from a legal eagle, in fact, I do not know too much about legal stuff, court stuff etc. so bear with me. Would TLM's lawyer know what evidence the crown has for MR's trial? If so, would she have shared this with TLM? Perhaps TLM found out that they do not have concrete evidence to convict MR of sexual assault as he had time to cover his tracks, get rid of stuff. TLM thinks that he will get off with the charge of sexual assault because of this....so she changes her story in January, to version #2 , that MR killed VS, thinking (in her warped mind)that this would be the only way to keep MR behind bars for life.

I thought that in January 2012 that she changed her story to "she killed Tori"...please correct me if I am wrong..:moo:
 
Thus far and for awhile longer, we only have the Crown version of events, based in a large part by the questionable testimony of TLM. and we have a broad outlline of where the defense theory may lead.

The Crown will produce more evidence to support the charges, and then the defense will begin their case on behalf of the accused.

I am surprised at this point, that Mr. Derstine hasn't put up much opposition, or asked many questions of Crown witnesses, but thus far the Crown witnesses haven't particularly hurt the alternate theory advanced by the defense.........so why would he take issue with it?

I am also surprised in the testimony of today..........where Derstine questioned the placement of several things on the map drawn by McClintic. The jury was at the scene..........and Mr. Derstine is a smart guy. I doubt he would argue something that the jurors themselves would know to be false.

The testimony of the pathologist seemed to bolster the defense theory more than the Crowns. It was his professional opinion as an expert, and both the Crown and defense acknowledged him as an expert, there was no evidence of a sexual assault.

He couldn't say an assault never took place, but only that there was no evidence that it did. That testimony didn't particularly aid the Crown, who do have to prove that a sexual assault took place. IMO.

At this point, I think it impossible to make a judgement on guilt or innocence, but feel the Crown still has a long ways to go to meet the threshold of proof of guilt (which as I understand it includes "intent") beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is especially true, knowing the defense will be given a chance to refute all the evidence presented by the Crown and they will make an impact, however large or small. JMO

BBM

It was his professional opinion that there was no evidence because of extensive decomposition.

How did we ever convict people before the science of DNA?

MOO
 
so then it's down to the wire which of the "two liars" (your words not mine, just quoting them) that the jury believes...:moo:

No...it's which one can back up their version with circumstantial evidence.

MOO
 
Will Derstine even cross examine the pathologist? I doubt it. JMO

I believe it was said tomorrow Derstine would cross the pathologist.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_CourtReply


Carnegie has finished. Derstine will cross examine Pollanen tomorrow. Done for the day.
 
Will Derstine even cross examine the pathologist? I doubt it. JMO
I would if I were him just to reaffirm his testimony that he found no physical evidence of rape. He has to use every tool in his toolbox. Remember, early on in the trial, Derstine asked a police officer whether Rafferty had a criminal record and the answer was 'no'. This guy doesn't miss a trick.
 
Will Derstine even cross examine the pathologist? I doubt it. JMO

I don't think he needs to really, the Crown and the defence both agreed to the fact that there was no physical evidence of a sexual assault. I don't think the defence is denying the actual death happened the way the pathologist explained. So, I doubt it too, but we shall soon find out.

MOO
 
I always took the white wash to be white paint - I had not considered that it was some form of anti microbial solution! Here is an article that details what white wash is and why it has been used in farms (cellars and barns)....
http://survivallady.com/?p=231

I think credit goes to Snoofer for suggesting it, but given the issues some are having with quoting going awry, I did not wanna chance it!

A traditional animal barn contains a variety of extremely rough surfaces that are difficult to wash and keep clean, such as stone and brick masonry, and also rough-cut lumber for the ceiling. Left alone these surfaces collect dust, dirt, insect debris and wastes, and can become very dirty. Whitewash aids in sanitation by coating and smoothing over the rough surfaces. -Wikipedia

it is traditionally used internally in food preparation areas, particularly rural dairies, for its mildly antibacterial properties. wikipedia

Whitewash aids in sanitation by coating and smoothing over the rough surfaces. Successive applications of whitewash build up layers of scale which flake off and in the process remove surface debris with it. The coating also has antimicrobial properties that provide hygienic and sanitary benefits for animal barns. -Pediaview
 
I thought that in January 2012 that she changed her story to "she killed Tori"...please correct me if I am wrong..:moo:


ugh....Im so confused....Yes you are correct....ok forget that post!!! LOL

I can't keep up with her stories/lies ....I don't know how TLM keeps it all straight
 
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