George Zimmerman's injuries #2

[tehcloser]

That's the SYG part that seemingly everyone has a hard time understanding. One only needs to have a reasonable amount of 'fear' of someone killing them. They don't need to continually sustain injuries before that 'fear' is considered valid.

This is why (IMO) some folks are arguing very hard that TM was not involved in the fight because if there is no fight, then there is no way GZ was in 'fear' of his life. But if there was a fight and GZ really was in a defensive position......

There could have been a fight and TM really was in a defensive position. SYG goes both ways......not just one.

 

[elementary]

Why did Zimmerman ask "Am I bleeding"? I think because that is a very normal question to ask after one knows they have been injured.

I know this probably doesn't carry much weightg iven that these were the words of GZ's supporters, but didn't someone from his side assert that the beating was so bad that GZ was choking on his own blood?

 

[tehcloser]

Who called it a life and death struggle? I don't think GZ did.

It has been referred to as that over and over on this forum, and I just used it to describe what I saw as a problem with the evidence. Then I explained why I used it in a following post. I didn't say GZ said it.

 

[cityslick]

There could have been a fight and TM really was in a defensive position. SYG goes both ways......not just one.

Correct, but no one has anyway way of knowing that. The only two witnesses who seem to have witnessed part of the fight initially indicated it was GZ on the bottom before backtracking. No witnesses have said TM was on the bottom or could of been on the bottom during the fight.

If TM was on the bottom getting hit, there is no way he wouldn't have more injuries than he does.

 

[tlcya]

Who called it a life and death struggle? I don't think GZ did.

GZ hasn't told us anything as he has not spoken to the press (rightly so IMO) but his father and brother have given numerous interviews in which they describe the struggle as "life or death" in nature.

 

[cityslick]

It has been referred to as that over and over on this forum, and I just used it to describe what I saw as a problem with the evidence. Then I explained why I used it in a following post. I didn't say GZ said it.

I understand, but that saying is being used to compare what his injuries are or what they should be. If GZ himself has not described the fight like that, why are his injuries being downplayed in comparison to that statement?

 

[cityslick]

GZ hasn't told us anything as he has not spoken to the press (rightly so IMO) but his father and brother have given numerous interviews in which they describe the struggle as "life or death" in nature.

And yet, neither of them were there to witness it. How are we to know if that's something they were told or they are saying on their own? It's all hearsay.

 

[Karmady]

When I think about the entire set of circumstances, I find it very implausible that George would manufacture a story out of whole cloth about how his injuries occurred. It was early evening on a Sunday when many people were likely to be home and awake. He was in the middle of two rows of numerous homes all of which had porches and/or windows facing the courtyard. There was loud yelling, regardless of who was doing it, which would be expected to attract attention. He probably knew for certain that at least one person had seen what was happening because that person communicated that he did. George had called the police and they were expected on the scene any moment. They did, in fact, show up at the scene within moments of the shooting, as did a number of others.

If your head wasn't banged on the concrete under those circumstances, why make up a story that says it was when it could possibly be refuted by any number of potential eyewitnesses and the evidence. Just say your head was being banged on the ground and don't specify the surface. Especially if you've got plausible deniability down pat, as some believe George did. jmo

 

[tehcloser]

The way those "witness" are going........I wonder if we will see them.

 

[elementary]

BBM
It's true that the lack of injuries to Trayvons knuckles will be noted by the jury. But I wonder what the jury will make of GZ's injuries to his nose and back of his head. I don't think that a jury will buy a story of GZ falling down and injuring both the back and the front of his head. Reasonable doubt? JMO.

Well, after the Pinellas disaster, you may well be right! IMO, what is reasonable to expect is that there would be some evidence on Trayvon that he had made meaningful contact with GZ's body, especially his head. And yet, there was no GZ DNA in Trayvon's nail scrapings, and no meaningful injuries, cuts, bruises, etc., on Trayvon's hands or his body and none of GZ's blood on him. To me it is then reasonable to look at alternative explanations. Common sense and logic dictate it. But I can't begin to imagine at this point what the explanation might be.

 

[LynnM]

I know this probably doesn't carry much weightg iven that these were the words of GZ's supporters, but didn't someone from his side assert that the beating was so bad that GZ was choking on his own blood?

Yes his brother who also had GZ close to being in diapers and spoon fed for the rest of his life. When this is brought up, GZ's supporters point out that it was his brother saying this, not GZ, which of course is true. He's not responsible for what his brother or father or Frank Taafe or anyone else says.

We are really handicapped at this point in not having GZ's own account directly. I suspect but won't know until it's made public that there are quite a few strong statements in there that we will find unbelievable.

 

[TorisMom003]

For me, his injuries are being downplayed because we have heard that Trayvon was bashing his head repeatedly onto the sidewalk. Zimmerman's injuries do not back that claim up, IMO. Zimmerman's injuries could also have occured by him falling (sliping on the wet grass or sidewalk) backwards while holding onto Trayvon's hoodie bringing Trayvon down on top of him. This would also explain the struggle that witnesses saw. Trayvon struggling to get up and away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman struggled to keep Trayvon there until SPD arrived.

MOO

 

[tehcloser]

I understand, but that saying is being used to compare what his injuries are or what they should be. If GZ himself has not described the fight like that, why are his injuries being downplayed in comparison to that statement?

I don't think using life or death struggle is reaching when one person ends up dead. I never said GZ said it.......those are my words. MINE. And we are wayyyyyyyyyyyy off topic. The thread is about his injuries, not what words I use to describe them or the situation.

 

[RANCH]

I understand, but that saying is being used to compare what his injuries are or what they should be. If GZ himself has not described the fight like that, why are his injuries being downplayed in comparison to that statement?

I think that some people are raising the bar to a higher standard than the law requires. GZ would be justified in using deadly force to prevent great bodily harm according to Florida statutes.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

 

[cityslick]

For me, his injuries are being downplayed because we have heard that Trayvon was bashing his head repeatedly onto the sidewalk. Zimmerman's injuries do not back that claim up, IMO. Zimmerman's injuries could also have occured by him falling (sliping on the wet grass or sidewalk) backwards while holding onto Trayvon's hoodie bringing Trayvon down on top of him. This would also explain the struggle that witnesses saw. Trayvon struggling to get up and away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman struggled to keep Trayvon there until SPD arrived.

MOO

What happened to his nose? Did TM get some licks in after he fell on top of him? This would actually play into John's (initial) witness statement.

Saying GZ initially grabbed TM is a flat out guess, because there is no evidence to how it started.

ETA: If GZ was holding on to TM and TM was trying to get away, I would expect some evidence of rips/tears in TM's hoodie. Some evidence that shows that the clothing was being pulled forcefully.

 

[tlcya]

And yet, neither of them were there to witness it. How are we to know if that's something they were told or they are saying on their own? It's all hearsay.

True. But if direct testimony from the party involved is the benchmark then we all should pack it up and head for other activities because right now, EVERYTHING is hearsay. Whether it be media reports or cousin's uncle's brothers in law talking, it is all hearsay if we are getting it from anyone other than TM (seance would be needed) or GZ.

 

[HiHater]

When I think about the entire set of circumstances, I find it very implausible that George would manufacture a story out of whole cloth about how his injuries occurred. It was early evening on a Sunday when many people were likely to be home and awake. He was in the middle of two rows of numerous homes all of which had porches and/or windows facing the courtyard. There was loud yelling, regardless of who was doing it, which would be expected to attract attention. He probably knew for certain that at least one person had seen what was happening because that person communicated that he did. George had called the police and they were expected on the scene any moment. They did, in fact, show up at the scene within moments of the shooting, as did a number of others.

If your head wasn't banged on the concrete under those circumstances, why make up a story that says it was when it could possibly be refuted by any number of potential eyewitnesses and the evidence. Just say your head was being banged on the ground and don't specify the surface. Especially if you've got plausible deniability down pat, as some believe George did. jmo

I would agree with this BUT not one witness has said they saw GZ's head being banged on the cement. So your whole point is rather moot, IMO. Either that, or you are actually bolstering the claim that his head was never banged...

 

[cmsg2002]

I think that some people are raising the bar to a higher standard than the law requires. GZ would be justified in using deadly force to prevent great bodily harm according to Florida statutes.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

the link you provided is only a subsection of the use of deadly force in accordance with FL law, and is specifically for the use of deadly force in your home or automobile. The subsections for the use of deadly force relating to the SYG statute is different from that, and has different standards.

Attaching link to article that does a decent job of spelling out the differences and how they would and would not apply to the GZ/TM case.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...efense-claim-depend-on-who-started-the-fight/

 

[RANCH]

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

This is the part that is relevant to this case.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

 

[belle3]

For me, his injuries are being downplayed because we have heard that Trayvon was bashing his head repeatedly onto the sidewalk. Zimmerman's injuries do not back that claim up, IMO. Zimmerman's injuries could also have occured by him falling (sliping on the wet grass or sidewalk) backwards while holding onto Trayvon's hoodie bringing Trayvon down on top of him. This would also explain the struggle that witnesses saw. Trayvon struggling to get up and away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman struggled to keep Trayvon there until SPD arrived.

MOO

I actually believe that this is very possibly what happened. The injury to gz nose can be explained by tm exercising his right to defend himself from someone who had grabbed him against his will. This scenario is as possible as gz getting his head bashed in and sucker punched. all imo