Deceased/Not Found NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 #2 *P. Hernandez guilty*

[Mystic]

I'd be surprised if he was left alone in the bodega long enough for that. He was only 18, a new employee and not particularly well known to the owners. Would they have left him alone all day long with the till?

When I was 12 years old, friends of my family owned a deli/variety store and they left me alone for periods of time doing cash, cutting lunchmeats etc. So I can see his working a morning shift or whatever yet I see what you mean, depends how mature & trustworthy they felt about it. Again, the only way I can see that he led Etan for a soda was if that store door was locked due to him doing something in that stock room. From the pictures of the store front, Etan would walk directly to it and not around the side (unless i'm not understanding the route correctly)

 

[wfgodot]

Any PD can get a false confession, especially in a high profile case which they are under pressure to solve. Remember the Central Park Five.

Not sure how you can equate a 33-year-old case with CP5. In the latter there was indeed a huge impetus from above to solve the thing; the immediacy was spectacular and the case's red-ball status led to flawed decisions (understatement). The Patz case was, of course, 33 years old, and this apparent break comes on the heels of what was seen as a last-ditch, in-good-faith, effort to solve it by digging up Othneil Miller's old basement. The path to Hernandez and subsequent confession was out of the blue. Indeed, NYPD I am sure has had to let Hernandez convince them that this is the real deal.

 

[Zoe Zo]

So - show of hands on this. How many think Jose Hernandez in fact did kill Etan Patz?

I'll vote that he did, with the usual caveats that until we know more, etc. etc. But I vote yes.

wfgodot, I am starting to think there is a very good change he might have done it. If he really does know things that only the police and the family know.

 

[osadelnorte]

I was wondering that this morning, I would like to know if he was working alone that day. Etan was going to buy a soda and if Hernandez was alone, the door to the the bodega would be locked (with a sign 'be back in...' sign, as thats what is normally done). Hernandez easily could have lured the boy to the stock room to get his soda. kwim And was he loading stock from a truck to the stock room or from the stock room to the store???

I've been thinking along these lines too.

 

[Mystic]

Excuse the expression, but, if this is true, this gets filed in the "WTF" category.

Seriously?

yup, you pretty much summed it up perfectly :banghead:

 

[wfgodot]

The older I get, the more I realize that much of life is in the WTF? category,.

 

[osadelnorte]

wfgodot, I am starting to think there is a very good change he might have done it. If he really does know things that only the police and the family know.

I'm REALLY curious to know what those things are. I've read that it may have been identifying marks, etc., but one publication yesterday (NY Post?) said it was something only Etan and his sister would have known about at the time. I keep trying to imagine what that would have been, but I have no clue. I think this is my main motivation in leaning toward Hernandez's guilt; if he actually came out with details like that all on his own, wow...

 

[Mystic]

So, PH carried the box with Etan in it, that night, in the midst of the police search (in the rain?).

Really?

Why did he say he put it in a Dumpster at the prayer group confession then?

strange eh, the only way I've come to see it is that Etan's parents didn't know he was missing till he didn't get home from school later in the afternoon. So from the time the police got around to doing a search PH had already walked to the Dumpster (if that's really what he did). Passerby's wouldn't think much or take much notice that the store clerk was walking with a store box (i guess). just an idea of why it may not have stood out

 

[Mystic]

The older I get, the more I realize that much of life is in the WTF? category,.

lol that would be a good signature caption thanks for laugh

 

[Zoe Zo]

Now reading "Pedro Hernandez, the former store clerk charged in the 1979 death of 6-year-old Etan Patz after he confessed to the alleged murder, reportedly kept the boy's body in a walk-in refrigerator in the store's basement before discarding it."
http://abcnews.go.com/News/etan-patz-suspect-reportedly-boys-body-store-freezer/story?id=16444148

It really is hard to know what happen when different things keep changing.

 

[Mystic]

The other thing that stumps me is that the Police would have interviewed everyone from that bodega due to Etan planning to buy a soda.. so how did PH not get interviewed. There had to a reason, did the owners only state he worked occasionally and not that particular day? Since if LE knew he was working, loading stock at that particular corner or whatever that morning... he would have been high on the list for the possibility of seeing something. Something is up with that.. there was a post here mentioning the owners were possibly doing some illegal stuff (turkey stuff?? whatever that is). Is it possible they didn't trust PH to blurt out private info?

 

[bethofalltrades]

I think the prospect of closing this case is appealing to all involved. I just hope there is evidence uncovered to corroborate this confession. Terminally ill, potentially mentally ill man confesses to a case that's been in the media a lot recently, just days before the anniversary of the crime... I'm skeptical.

I have a very close family member with schizophrenia; he's never confessed to a crime, but he does remember some events very differently than others who were present do. The passage of time can alter all of our memories, but for someone who's not neurotypical, those alterations can be even more extreme. I imagine that being NEAR a case like this could have even more of a striking effect. Hernandez worked in the bodega near where Etan vanished. The disappearance saturated the media and the community. If Hernandez was already developing schizophrenia or a personality disorder, the leap to "I did this" could have been easy.

I have no doubt that Hernandez believes he did it. As a New Yorker (although I wasn't here at the time of Etan's disappearance), I want to see this case solved so badly, both for the Patz family's peace of mind and so the old wounds can start to heal. The local reactions to the excavation in Miller's basement made me see how deeply this case still affects many who live here. I just want LE to be sure before they stamp the file "case closed." I know physical evidence is unlikely at this point, but I hope they are able to find SOMETHING conclusive, be it a trophy kept by Hernandez or something he knows that only the killer would.

Edited to add: the NY Post is slightly more reputable than the Daily News, but neither one is much above a tabloid. Not saying their reporters would make something up, but their sources might not be as vigorously vetted as they could be. MOO.

 

[Zoe Zo]

I'm REALLY curious to know what those things are. I've read that it may have been identifying marks, etc., but one publication yesterday (NY Post?) said it was something only Etan and his sister would have known about at the time. I keep trying to imagine what that would have been, but I have no clue. I think this is my main motivation in leaning toward Hernandez's guilt; if he actually came out with details like that all on his own, wow...

I also read that about something only Etan and his sister knew about. I'm just guessing here, maybe a black and blue mark - maybe from the sister punching him or from pinching him. One that was pretty big but still be covered by clothing and his sister told him not to tell mom and dad because she would be in trouble??

If he does know things that only the killer, parents/sister and police know, will they share them with the family before court or will the parents have to wait for the info to be heard in court??

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

Ok - some clarification. The un-named bodega is in a building once owned by C. Saracco. He owned the entire building {not sure now many stories or businesses are in the building} from 1950 - 2005. He does not remember Pedro. I do not believe C. Saracco owned the business inside the bodega.

Juan ran the bodega for 17 years. Juan's now 22 year old son is a nephew of Pedro.


Detective Butler responded to the home of Etan the very day he went missing {or that night}. Detective Butler walked the route Etan walked - and went into the bodega for years. He was one of 2 full time LE dedicated to the Etan case. Detective Butler talked with Juan when he went into the bodega.

The very day Etan went missing - the Father of Etan found undeveloped photos of Etan taken in March- rushed out to have them developed. The bodega is one of the places the Father of Etan went to show Etan's photo - asking if anyone had seen him that day. Whoever was shown the photos said no.

Here is a post from a person who knew Juan when he worked the bodega - and saw him years later - before the arrest of Pedro.

I ran into Juan, the guy who used to work at the bodega on West Broadway at Prince, when I was getting pizza the other day at Ben’s. He said he remembered me, remembered my face as a little girl. He pretty much looks exactly the same as he did over thirty years ago. I thought Juan owned the bodega, but he said he just worked there (for 17 years!). He still lives on West Broadway (for 41 years!) and works as a super in a few buildings in the neighborhood. And he still doesn’t speak English all too well. I told him I missed his bodega.

The bodega didn’t have a name, and it really didn’t need one. Although there were a few bodegas in the area, everyone knew that you meant THAT bodega if you said you were going to stop in to “the bodega” to buy a few things.

I really do miss that bodega. It was pre M&O, pre-Korean deli on Thompson Street. It was the only show in town. I used to catch the P.S.3 school bus there every morning, and in the afternoons there were card games on milk crates on the sidewalk. I once bought a box of instant oatmeal there. I brought it home, “cooked” it up, and noticed hundreds of little bugs crawling around my bowl. I think I might have already taken a bite or two. After that, I wrote my first and only ever consumer complaint letter to Quaker Oats. I think I was about nine or ten years old. A few weeks later, I received letter of apology and a coupon for a free box of oatmeal, which I promptly redeemed—guess where?

I recently asked around to see what other folks remembered about the bodega. The sinful steak sandwiches, the weed they sold behind the counter, and the barbecues. They used to roast a whole pig in the parking lot next door. Juan said he quite enjoyed those barbecues and that he would still do them if he could find a good lot. He also told me that once a woman called the cops to complain about the pig (how ironic). An officer showed up and asked when the pig would be done. He returned at the designated hour with a loaf of bread and Juan made him two sandwiches.

So if any of yous want to relive the old days and happen to have a whole pig handy, let me know, and I’ll get ol’Juan on the horn. FYI, this BBQ will be strictly BYOB (bring your own bread)!

Reports are a brother-in-law Jose Lopez is the person that turned in Pedro. The lady that Pedro is currently married is his 2nd wife. It may be difficult in figuring out who the nephew that Pedro did not like as much as the others may be {if true}. But the nephew would be around 39 years of age today. Pedro has 11 brothers and sisters and this statement confuses me :

Pedro, 51, and Emeterio, 60, are two of 12 siblings, and Emeterio’s wife, Gloria, is sisters with Pedro’s second, current wife, Rosemary. “They met at our wedding,” Emeterio said.
Emeterio says he will step up and become a “father figure” for Pedro’s college age daugher Becky.

So Juan did not own the bodega - Juan is his confirmed family and worked there 17 years. So that is how Pedro ended up working there. Other family members worked there as well. Possibly his family rented the bodega and therefore it was their family business. Juan looked pretty young in 79 - possibly an older family member was the official business owner.

 

[Zoe Zo]

I think the prospect of closing this case is appealing to all involved. I just hope there is evidence uncovered to corroborate this confession. Terminally ill, potentially mentally ill man confesses to a case that's been in the media a lot recently, just days before the anniversary of the crime... I'm skeptical.

I have a very close family member with schizophrenia; he's never confessed to a crime, but he does remember some events very differently than others who were present do. The passage of time can alter all of our memories, but for someone who's not neurotypical, those alterations can be even more extreme. I imagine that being NEAR a case like this could have even more of a striking effect. Hernandez worked in the bodega near where Etan vanished. The disappearance saturated the media and the community. If Hernandez was already developing schizophrenia or a personality disorder, the leap to "I did this" could have been easy.

I have no doubt that Hernandez believes he did it. As a New Yorker (although I wasn't here at the time of Etan's disappearance), I want to see this case solved so badly, both for the Patz family's peace of mind and so the old wounds can start to heal. The local reactions to the excavation in Miller's basement made me see how deeply this case still affects many who live here. I just want LE to be sure before they stamp the file "case closed." I know physical evidence is unlikely at this point, but I hope they are able to find SOMETHING conclusive, be it a trophy kept by Hernandez or something he knows that only the killer would.

Edited to add: the NY Post is slightly more reputable than the Daily News, but neither one is much above a tabloid. Not saying their reporters would make something up, but their sources might not be as vigorously vetted as they could be. MOO.

Like you, I hope LE are 100% sure he did this before they close the case.

 

[osadelnorte]

What a great post, DevilsPlayThing. Lots of useful and interesting information there.

 

[Zoe Zo]

Why are LE sources leaking uncorroborated excerpts of this confession to the media? Why don't they show us the confession tape instead? That way we could see whether he really gave details that "only the killer would know."

They wouldn't be trying to poison the jury pool in case he retracts now would they?

I'm with you, I want to hear something that will make me 100 % sure he did it.

 

[Mystic]

Detective Butler responded to the home of Etan the very day he went missing {or that night}. Detective Butler walked the route Etan walked - and went into the bodega for years. He was one of 2 full time LE dedicated to the Etan case. Detective Butler talked with Juan when he went into the bodega.

The very day Etan went missing - the Father of Etan found undeveloped photos of Etan taken in March- rushed out to have them developed. The bodega is one of the places the Father of Etan went to show Etan's photo - asking if anyone had seen him that day. Whoever was shown the photos said no.

snipped, bbm

Excellent post DPT

After I wrote my previous post I recalled reading that a detective re-walked that route to the Bodega for years. Honestly its just driving me nuts that he would do that and not bother to go talk to PH (or look for where he went). It totally leaves me believing that PH was not reported as having worked there that day, if at all. The news stories only say that LE doesn't know why PH was never interviewed (well i'm sure they absolutely know why) as all they would have to do is go check out the reports of the employees of the Bodega. Guess I find it all too hinkey.

I also respect the post of bethofalltrades. PH believes he did it, but could PH actually only be a witness rather then having done the crime.... some articles have his leaving town from 1-2 months & others 2 days. If it was 1-2 months LE would have spoken to him in my thoughts.. but if it was as quickly as a day or so?? why? Maybe I'm thinking too much; i do trust that Detective Butler had some gut instinct that the answer would be found at the bodega.

 

[helpful]

I think all he said is that he killed a kid in NYC. I don't think he went into any more detail than that.

Even that seems like it would merit a heads-up to police from at least one member. I just can't imagine that "hey I killed a kid" is a common prayer-group confession. Even in Camden.

(OT: I went to college in Rochester, lived in the 19th Ward. Eat a plate for me!)

 

[NocturnalLady]

I agree with you. Not ONE of those people saw fit to mention it to the police? Even if confessions are "fairly normal" in their group, I wouldn't imagine that many members have confessed to murdering a six-year-old child and then discarding his body in the trash. That's not remotely in the same ballpark as stealing a candy bar or coveting thy neighbor's wife, you know?

I can't imagine a world in which I would "grow hardened" enough to just go merrily on my way when I heard someone confess to a murder. No way.