Allison Baden-Clay, GENERAL CASE DISCUSSION THREAD -#31

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no offence but I will be awaiting the QPS and professional forensic scientists view on how she got there, after all it will all be based on physics of motion and as far as I know, noone here is a specialist in that area.

I have taught forensic science previously and can tell you that what lay people may think obvious, science can refute. In order to come to any conclusion, one MUST have all the variables, and without an exact placement marked as to where the body was found and no exact measure of height and flow of the river, it can be anyone's guess.

I think this thread is getting more like an episode of CSI only more difficult, remember the KISS principle, after all it is alleged that GBC did it. :)

We need to also remember that you will more likely break bones in a fall because you "stiffen" up for landing (a conscious person cannot help but stiffen up), if she was unconscious (or already dead - forgive me) then her body would be limp as anything and therefore - less likely to break bones, etc. In saying that, you can still break bones without external signs of injury. And remember the 'no visible signs of injury' would mean as they found her, what about once they moved her. You never know.

Also, I have driven past there around 930-10pm at night on a THURSDAY night (late night shopping) and very, very few cars travel that way at that time, so that is why I believe there is a very high possibly of placing her there.

That is your opinion and we are lay people as you know. None of us presume to be experts in this area but what we tried to do today is to give all of you a better understanding of the area.

If you are a local then it would be very easy for you to go down and have a look and I would be interested to here your opinion once you have done so.

I too have driven past and it is very different once you are down there.

I agree with Indromum's opinion that to stop a car in the middle of the bridge and get a body out of it and over the side would be taking a huge risk, even in the early hours of the morning.

MOO
 
Firstly, I would really like to thank Mani, Minnie and Indromum for a great afternoon! :)

The four of us (plus a lovely husband) travelled to Kholo Creek today. First and foremost we wanted to acknowledge Allison. We added lots of artificial sunflowers (not as pretty as the real ones, but will last) to the cross and also placed a few bunches of beautiful yellow flowers along the bridge. We took lots of photos - Mani is keen to upload these.

We also did lots of sleuthing! It was such an advantage to actually be under that bridge, in the exact surroundings. On top of that, we were able to bounce ideas off each other, discuss and dismiss theories and come to some conclusions as to what may have happened to Allison.

The original photos of when Allison was found proved invaluable, as we were eventually able to pinpoint the exact resting place of her body. This was after much debate about scrub vrs mud, tree lopping, high tide vrs low tide and the pylons bases (Mani's hubby knows the exact term!) height from the bridge etc etc. From the position that we think her body came to rest, we found it very difficult to believe that she was either carried down there, or was thrown off the bridge.

The bush would have been way too dense and the slope way too steep for anyone (even Tarzan) to have carried a body down - even with help. The bush has been cleared under the bridge now, but the other side is extremely thick and near impossible to manipulate (as one brave group member found out) so the side that Allison was found on, would have originally been the same. We saw much of the evidence of chopped trees, scrub around us - indicating just how thick it would have been.

We then turned to the 'thrown off the bridge' theory, but after much discussion also found this hard to imagine, for three main reasons.
1. It's such a long way down! Lots of broken bones.
2. There would have been too much risk of being seen - the traffic (even in the early hours would have been fairly regular)
3. From where we looked (Allison's resting place) you could see the Brisbane River - would GBC have taken such a risk as to throw Allison into the creek (so clopse to the BR) with the possibility of her floating away, never to be seen again ........ and hence no insurance pay out???

SO, we came to the conclusion - reluctantly - that she had floated down the creek to this position. It actually made sense to us - looking upwards in the creek. Her resting place is so far down this bank, too far down, and too close to the Brisbane River.

Then we went for a drive up Wirrabarra Drv to the Scout Hall. OMGosh! There are atleast 2 houses if not 3 that are very close to the main gate of the camp. If GBC brought her up here, he was either very brave or very stupid, as a car would be seen/heard from these houses. If they are not heavy sleepers (like GBC!!!!!) then they would have seen the car/s and someone unlocking the padlocked gate for sure - especially with dogs going off.

At the end of this road is another padlocked gate (we're quietly positive that keys may have been accessible to members of the scouting org!) There are no houses around here and the creek is a small distance, and a drop, but no dense scrub. Minnie walked out and investigated this one - she's the expert - and is knowledgable about this area - along with Mani's lovely husband. But overall, we wondered if Ugly Creek (near Scout Camp) is the location that Allison's body was placed in and washed down to Kholo Creek Bridge.

So, in the end, we found it hard to believe that Allison was carried or thrown off Kholo Creek Bridge. We're fairly sure that she may have washed down with the downpour that we received the weekend before she was found. But then again, we also wondered how GBC/and accomplice drove past the neighbours at the main Scout Camp entrance? Maybe he/they got away with it? Or maybe he/they drove to the end, where Minnie went out to?

From there, we travelled to NBC and EBC's house. I was personally amazed at how close to the road their house actually was. Nothing like the shots on MSM. The animal skulls are very much 'in your face' if you know what I mean! The white Prado, parked on the curbside, with number plates 'SETTLED' was quite surreal.

Minnie and Mani travelled on to Brookfield then, and Indromum and I went home.

I really appreciated this afternoon in more ways than just one - meeting some gorgeous people that are now my friends (with faces), being able to sleuth, being able to sleuth as a group and debate, dismiss and discuss what happened, and most importantly, paying a special TRIBUTE TO ALLISON! The cross looks amazing - so bright - and so does the bridge. We got a few 'toots' while we there too! Thanks locals!

IMO, JMO, MOO. RIP, justice and love Allison!!

Was the only car there the Prado? Could you see their gold (I think) Suzuki 4WD? Sorry to obsess about cars, but the Prado being driven by NBC made me wonder if his own car had been impounded by police.

I'm also sleuthing around for that Honda and 5ETTLE plate. I may get something this week.
 
I am cold lying in my bed.
Wondering what it is like for GBC at Arthur Gorrie. That place would have some seriously bad vibes. Committal tomorrow and then possible reclassification from the medical ward into something more long-term. Wondering if he has any remorse.

I would say he is sorry alright......sorry he got caught.
 
I'm glad you all met there. I would have loved to have been a part of it.

Ages ago I suggested that some of us meet up as a tribute to Allison, but gosh I was poo pooed and received the weirdest pm's as if I was suggesting something super dangerous and ridiculous! :banghead:

Anyway, glad you did it!

I remember your post too Nads, but that was much earlier on and groups go through a process of what is often referred to as 'forming, storming and norming'. I think your post was in the storming part when we were not as confident as a group, no linkages to each other, no shared history. and people would have been a bit cagey about meeting people that they only knew through WS.

We are now, I think, in the norming bit, where we know who we trust, see through trollers or baiters very quickly and also can almost (except for too many OTs which I think are part and parcel of our strength btw) moderate ourselves without too many interjections from the Mods.

I am sure there will be many more opportunities over the coming weeks/months/years, so don't feel too bad!!
 
Yep, the same three I was thinking of. I thought once he got out on bail that he may have got the girls back? If he does get bailed, would it be an automatic thing the girls would be returned to him? ... I thought maybe the Dickie's had them because he wasn't around to care for them. There was some talk on here about hoping he wouldn't get them back. The other thing that made me think that was when the application stated he needed to care for the girls.

He stated he needed to care for the girls...I think he was only concerned about himself..as usual. I don't think he'll ever get bail as nothing much would have changed re his finances & he'd still be classed as flight risk. Hopefully the Dickies have long term custody of the girls.
 
no offence but I will be awaiting the QPS and professional forensic scientists view on how she got there, after all it will all be based on physics of motion and as far as I know, noone here is a specialist in that area.

I have taught forensic science previously and can tell you that what lay people may think obvious, science can refute. In order to come to any conclusion, one MUST have all the variables, and without an exact placement marked as to where the body was found and no exact measure of height and flow of the river, it can be anyone's guess.

I think this thread is getting more like an episode of CSI only more difficult, remember the KISS principle, after all it is alleged that GBC did it. :)

We need to also remember that you will more likely break bones in a fall because you "stiffen" up for landing (a conscious person cannot help but stiffen up), if she was unconscious (or already dead - forgive me) then her body would be limp as anything and therefore - less likely to break bones, etc. In saying that, you can still break bones without external signs of injury. And remember the 'no visible signs of injury' would mean as they found her, what about once they moved her. You never know.

Also, I have driven past there around 930-10pm at night on a THURSDAY night (late night shopping) and very, very few cars travel that way at that time, so that is why I believe there is a very high possibly of placing her there.

Yes JK we are but lay people, but that is what the forum is for. If you are qualified you may wish to register as a verified professional, just email Kimster.

On the issue of variables I think from memory it was Grannie and another poster who gave us all a great rundown of tide information on the days leading up to her being found, rainfall stats over a period, as well as clear diagrams of how water can travel coming around a bend or swirl around pylons.

Thank you for your input.
 
Makara,

I can't speak for everyone today but my feeling is that Allison was not placed on the bank, but she floated down the creek to that spot. IMO

Thanks Mani, I feel the same. I am a bit gob smacked though that the floodwaters would have flowed over the lower water pipe in the pics and carried Allison over it as well, or perhaps she was washed under that pipe. My God, she could have ended up anywhere! Perhaps there was a bit of divine intervention as to where she finally came to rest.

IMO GBC and his sidekick(s) took Allison to the vicinity of the scout camp and partially concealed her body there. From what I've read from the locals, Kholo Bridge is not somewhere one would stop and sightsee or wander around. On the other hand the scout camp would be frequented by any number of people as has already been mentioned, and hence the greater likelihood of Allison's body being found. IMO GBC wanted her found to claim the insurance on her life but he didn't bargain on Mother Nature releasing that deluge on the weekend prior to Allison being found. He knows the scout grounds well and so does his accomplice(s). I also feel that Allison had probably been there for scout activities in the past. IMO It was easy enough for GBC and co. to drive right in and dispose of Allison without too much effort and then drive straight back out again. This as opposed to trekking through long undergrowth at the Kholo Bridge with Allison's body and the real risk of being seen by passing motorists.

I've searched online (without success) for any activity that may have been scheduled at the scout camp from the 19th April and beyond. I would not be surprised in the least if there was in fact some type of meeting etc. scheduled and some poor person was going to have the horrific shock of finding Allison's body.
 
He stated he needed to care for the girls...I think he was only concerned about himself..as usual. I don't think he'll ever get bail as nothing much would have changed re his finances & he'd still be classed as flight risk. Hopefully the Dickies have long term custody of the girls.

Oh, I agree. I think he is far more interested in himself than wanting to care for anyone else. Using any excuse he can.
 
Thanks Mani. The photo that I am referring to is the vertical view, and I believe that the numbers are at the base of the pylon. It might just be some numbering system for the pylon. I was just curios and thought you may know. I really appreciate the photo's and the information about your excursion with the others to this area today.
.

Sorry Seeking that photo should actually be rotated and you will get a better view.

It is a number that has been spray painted on using a stencil and it might be to designate something in relation to its position on the river bank. It might be an AHD (Aust Height Data) or a surveyor's mark regarding a level. Don't know that is just speculation from hubby. MOO
 
Me neither Possumheart. I hate the thought. However, all four of us concluded that we think she has been washed down the creek.

We looked at whether she had been left there, rolled off the bridge or floated down and the consensus was that Allison has floated down.

What led us to that conclusion is that we didn't think that the body could land were it was without visible signs of injury i.e. broken bones - so we don't think she has been dropped from height and we don't believe she could have been dragged down (but will stand corrected if that is the case) due to the undergrowth and the fact that the place where her body was found reg?ularly goes underwater due to the tidal nature of the creek. IMO

Could Allisons body have fit through the railings? The reason I ask is that even though I know it has been stated ,no visible signs of injury I have always thought this strange. If ABC had been pushed off the bridge ,yes broken bones are almost certain but that is internal and wouldn't have been visible and only picked up in the autopsy. A broken neck would be obvious to police as a cause of death at the scene if ABC head was at at unusual angle to the torso but may not be classified/mentioned as visible a sign of injury. Having said this would the prosecution have to disclose this to the defence at the bail application hearing or could they keep this close to their chest until trial? With your explanation of the difficulties that would be encountered taking a body down the embankment to the waters edge and the unlikelihood of entering the scouting area it would seem to me to be the quickest and most efficient way for Allison to end up where she was found.
Mumbo Jumbo ? or am I making any sense :what: Great work with the photos and a wonderful gesture for all of you to meet today.
 
Wow, I didn't people had put their own stories up. How do you know whose you're reading? Yeah, that's got to sound like a pretty dumb question, I know.:blushing:

:floorlaugh:For some reason Linette, I had pictured you as a brunette!!!
 
Thanks Mani, I feel the same. I am a bit gob smacked though that the floodwaters would have flowed over the lower water pipe in the pics and carried Allison over it as well, or perhaps she was washed under that pipe. My God, she could have ended up anywhere! Perhaps there was a bit of divine intervention as to where she finally came to rest.

IMO GBC and his sidekick(s) took Allison to the vicinity of the scout camp and partially concealed her body there. From what I've read from the locals, Kholo Bridge is not somewhere one would stop and sightsee or wander around. On the other hand the scout camp would be frequented by any number of people as has already been mentioned, and hence the greater likelihood of Allison's body being found. IMO GBC wanted her found to claim the insurance on her life but he didn't bargain on Mother Nature releasing that deluge on the weekend prior to Allison being found. He knows the scout grounds well and so does his accomplice(s). I also feel that Allison had probably been there for scout activities in the past. IMO It was easy enough for GBC and co. to drive right in and dispose of Allison without too much effort and then drive straight back out again. This as opposed to trekking through long undergrowth at the Kholo Bridge with Allison's body and the real risk of being seen by passing motorists.

I've searched online (without success) for any activity that may have been scheduled at the scout camp from the 19th April and beyond. I would not be surprised in the least if there was in fact some type of meeting etc. scheduled and some poor person was going to have the horrific shock of finding Allison's body.

The Scout Camp's main gate was open today and lots of cars parked there, however the bottom gate at the bottom of the cul de sac was padlocked.

Makara - remember 543's posts of early on? They were onto something! IMO
 
I found a post of yours in which you mention passports...although I don't recall "fake passports" being mentioned in media at all. I do remember it being reported he allegedly had "plans" for later in the week

#482 06-23-2012, 08:03 PM
Fuskier
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 664

I recall from MSM reporting that GBC had allegedly made 'plans' for later in the week and was surprised that the Police turned up at his work on Wednesday afternoon. I recall hearing in MSM that the B C parents returned home Wednesday night, ran into their house and left the neighbours to take their 'bags' i.e. luggage into the house. Where were they going? What did the Police know? I recall rumour in MSM about it had been established that enquiries had been made about 'fake' passports and the Supreme Court Judge cited his concern that GBC was a serious flight risk among the reasons why GBC's bail was denied. My opinion only, drawn from MSM reporting and not necessarily facts.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8081867&highlight=passports#post8081867
MARLYWINGS: Thank you for the link:cheers:
 
Could Allisons body have fit through the railings? The reason I ask is that even though I know it has been stated ,no visible signs of injury I have always thought this strange. If ABC had been pushed off the bridge ,yes broken bones are almost certain but that is internal and wouldn't have been visible and only picked up in the autopsy. A broken neck would be obvious to police as a cause of death at the scene if ABC head was at at unusual angle to the torso but may not be classified/mentioned as visible a sign of injury. Having said this would the prosecution have to disclose this to the defence at the bail application hearing or could they keep this close to their chest until trial? With your explanation of the difficulties that would be encountered taking a body down the embankment to the waters edge and the unlikelihood of entering the scouting area it would seem to me to be the quickest and most efficient way for Allison to end up where she was found.
Mumbo Jumbo ? or am I making any sense :what:

It would be possible IMO to roll a body off the bridge and yes IMO she could fit through the railings.
 
I found a post of yours in which you mention passports...although I don't recall "fake passports" being mentioned in media at all. I do remember it being reported he allegedly had "plans" for later in the week

#482 06-23-2012, 08:03 PM
Fuskier
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 664

I recall from MSM reporting that GBC had allegedly made 'plans' for later in the week and was surprised that the Police turned up at his work on Wednesday afternoon. I recall hearing in MSM that the B C parents returned home Wednesday night, ran into their house and left the neighbours to take their 'bags' i.e. luggage into the house. Where were they going? What did the Police know? I recall rumour in MSM about it had been established that enquiries had been made about 'fake' passports and the Supreme Court Judge cited his concern that GBC was a serious flight risk among the reasons why GBC's bail was denied. My opinion only, drawn from MSM reporting and not necessarily facts.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8081867&highlight=passports#post8081867

Hmmmm, he had plans later in the week. Perhaps a hot date?

MOO IMO
 
I had decided she was placed based on the fact that she disappeared on a new moon when high tide is lowest. Point taken about the undergrowth. I know I just can't stand the thought of being washed down.

Possum, as usual, I am undecided! After much debate, I still 'feel' like she was placed there, and its based on only a few things. It seems unlikely she just happened to wash up and come to rest under the bridge. There is nothing there that 'snagged' her that stands out. To me. He has been charged with interfering with a corpse at kholo bridge which indicates the police believe he was there. Allicat got a feeling everytime she drove over the bridge in those 11 days before she was found. And finally, just my gut feeling. But the scout camp also seemed to provide a reasonable theory too, the others after a lot of discussion have (I think) discarded the idea she was tossed over or dragged down from this point. It makes more sense that she washed downbased on the lack of broken bones (and the hugely difficult task of climbing down there in the dark but I'm still hesitant to disregard my initial feeling
 
So the group who went there today who thought you couldn't go through the scrub to get a body down to the creek bank, wouldn't that explain the scratches on his face and torso?

Nads, I will leave that for Indromum, Minni and Bellgirl to answer as I found it hard to see scratches sorry. IMO
 
Possum, as usual, I am undecided! After much debate, I still 'feel' like she was placed there, and its based on only a few things. It seems unlikely she just happened to wash up and come to rest under the bridge. There is nothing there that 'snagged' her that stands out. To me. He has been charged with interfering with a corpse at kholo bridge which indicates the police believe he was there. Allicat got a feeling everytime she drove over the bridge in those 11 days before she was found. And finally, just my gut feeling. But the scout camp also seemed to provide a reasonable theory too, the others after a lot of discussion have (I think) discarded the idea she was tossed over or dragged down from this point. It makes more sense that she washed downbased on the lack of broken bones (and the hugely difficult task of climbing down there in the dark but I'm still hesitant to disregard my initial feeling

Sorry Minni, I included you in the consensus. Beg your pardon.
 
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