IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #16

[otto]

How about this for a theory ... the grandmother said that she watched the girls riding in circles before they vanished. I started wondering about what this means. Were they riding around the parking lot behind the buildings? Could the video have captured images of the girls riding several times, with only the last time at 12:11 (corrected to 12:19 to match the owner's cell phone time) being released to the public (I think Sunlight posted this possibility last night ... sorry if I got that wrong)? Could they have been grabbed when they were just out of sight of their home? Is that why Abben said that they were going in the wrong direction and that the bikes could have been staged?

The red line is the camera.

 

[nikb]

Last night I was thinking about Elizabeths purse, I wonder if it was like a backpack? I say that because it might mean a struggle took place and the purse or backpack came off. Or if she wore it crossbody also. I would think she would wear the purse either way especially while riding a bike.

I've wondered that too. The only things I've read in terms of descriptions were that it was "a small purse" and purple. I'm picturing more of a hand-held purse that may not have a strap, but it's hard to say.

 

[Bootsctr]

SBM

Thank you!

Air scenting is actually encouraged by SAR handlers who are looking for live victims. As you've observed, air scenting is a way for a dog to shortcut to the goal and it's quite effective. In SAR, what counts is finding the victim as quickly as possible.

Foxhounds will also air scent sometimes (they only work hot scent). And sometimes, when conditions are just right, the scent rises up over the heads of the hounds and the riders can smell it but the dogs can't. It is a very weird thing when a human can smell something that a dog cannot.

Fascinating! So the fox releases a scent that goes over the hounds heads and then the humans can smell that. Does that throw the hounds off, make them think they have lost track of the fox? I guess the hunters then have to become the trackers?

 

[cindersoot]

I've wondered that too. The only things I've read in terms of descriptions were that it was "a small purse" and purple. I'm picturing more of a hand-held purse that may not have a strap, but it's hard to say.

I just have a strong feeling that it came off in a struggle.

 

[nikb]

Thank you. I had not seen it either. The hand drawn portraits of the girls are gorgeous.

You're welcome - and yes, they are! I really liked the portraits too. One other thing from the article that made me smile:

Pink mohawks are not merely a fashion statement for three Elk Run Heights brothers.

Collin Yu, 9, and Ethan and Eric Yu, both 7, began sporting the spiked hairdos during softball and T-ball season.

When Elizabeth Collins, 9, and Lyric Cook-Morrissey, 10, went missing a month ago, they broke out the spray paint.

 

[otto]

Thankyou for bringing this up. I have been saying that all along.:rocker:

It's been looked at before ... the red line is the trail

 

[cindersoot]

It's been looked at before ... the red line is the trail

Thanks Otto thats a great map.

 

[cindersoot]

Thanks Otto thats a great map.

They could off went off the bike trail past the lawn watering guy and to the front of the lake also.

 

[otto]

Thanks Otto thats a great map.

It needs to be updated to have the last sighting of the girls behind the Auction shop, on Brovan ... might do that later ...

 

[Confusion]

You're welcome - and yes, they are! I really liked the portraits too. One other thing from the article that made me smile:

Pink mohawks are not merely a fashion statement for three Elk Run Heights brothers.

Collin Yu, 9, and Ethan and Eric Yu, both 7, began sporting the spiked hairdos during softball and T-ball season.

When Elizabeth Collins, 9, and Lyric Cook-Morrissey, 10, went missing a month ago, they broke out the spray paint.

BBM

I think that was probably my favorite part.

 

[foxbluff]

SBM

It depends on the dog.

I have seen a few dogs that would track down a double laid track where the person walks in one direction, then makes a 180 degree turn and tries to walk over the track they just laid. Those few dogs would go right down to the place the person made the 180 degree turn, turn with the turn and follow the tracklayer back along the trail.

Many dogs don't. It's highly unlikely that someone will double back for very long distances. Eventually that person will step away from their pre-laid track and go somewhere else. Dogs will often skip the double laid portion of the track and just make the turn where the tracklayer turned off the track. If the particular individual that the dog is tracking lays down fresher scent, that's what the dog is most likely to follow.

I suspect that dogs are capable of more than humans realise. The problem isn't the capabilities of dogs, it's the human ability to communicate to the dog what is wanted that is probably lacking.

Dogs do make mistakes. So do handlers. Put the two living beings together and the occasional mistake is going to happen.

Thank you for this response! Usually, when I return to a board after a long absense, I have to "wither on the vine" for about a week before peeps decide I'm not a dreaded troll.

Btw, I totally agree w/the above BBM para. Makes for a great quote (or sig. line for you?).

Now, re: "It depends on the dog." Okay, I understand. IIRC, you indicated in earlier post that the search dogs at the lake were w/the FBI which tells me that the dogs/trainers/handlers would be the opposite of amateurs. (And, yes, I fully realize that there are other variables we don't know about that would have caused the dogs to stop at the water's edge.)

Do you have an educated and/or gut feeling as to whether the girls disappeared by way of water or disappeared by way of land?

 

[SapphireSteel]

I've read it described as a back pack.

Maybe it was one of those small backpack convertible type purses? That had a carry handle as well? I seem to recall my daughter having something like that.

:dunno:

 

[Bootsctr]

How about this for a theory ... the grandmother said that she watched the girls riding in circles before they vanished. I started wondering about what this means. Were they riding around the parking lot behind the buildings? Could the video have captured images of the girls riding several times, with only the last time at 12:11 (corrected to 12:19 to match the owner's cell phone time) being released to the public (I think Sunlight posted this possibility last night ... sorry if I got that wrong)? Could they have been grabbed when they were just out of sight of their home? Is that why Abben said that they were going in the wrong direction and that the bikes could have been staged?

The red line is the camera.

Otto, your pictures never cease to amaze. Yes, I think it is possible the girls could have been grabbed just out of sight of their home. Coincidentally, there are a lot of white vehicles included in the pic you provided. It looks like a pretty busy area though and I think more chances of being seen.... but not impossible. I think it would have to be a van to get two bikes in or a truck because it would have to have happened quickly and definitely more than 1 perp. The bikes are staged. How do we explain the girls scents at the lake? A piece of the girls clothing drug about? I think SapphireSteel mentioned that possibility. GrainneDhu thoughts?

 

[otto]

They could off went off the bike trail past the lawn watering guy and to the front of the lake also.

I doubt that they could have taken a 3 block detour to ride along Lake Avenue and still make it to the SE tip of the lake in the given time (riding about 15 mph to make the trip in 6 minutes).

 

[FrayedKnot]

How about this for a theory ... the grandmother said that she watched the girls riding in circles before they vanished. I started wondering about what this means. Were they riding around the parking lot behind the buildings? Could the video have captured images of the girls riding several times, with only the last time at 12:11 (corrected to 12:19 to match the owner's cell phone time) being released to the public (I think Sunlight posted this possibility last night ... sorry if I got that wrong)? Could they have been grabbed when they were just out of sight of their home? Is that why Abben said that they were going in the wrong direction and that the bikes could have been staged?

The red line is the camera.

This is pretty much what I think. But like several others have mentioned; the dogs. My gut still tells me they were taken elsewhere and the bikes dumped, tho.

 

[cindersoot]

I've read it described as a back pack.

Maybe it was one of those small backpack convertible type purses? That had a carry handle as well? I seem to recall my daughter having something like that.

:dunno:

Yes, thats what I read, a backpack. Thanks

 

[MotherOcean]

Now re: Cindersoot's post on the difference in size of helmets and heads of women and children. Q#1: Can anybody tell me if the girls were wearing bike helmets?

Q#2: regarding LC's size: Are there any recent photos online of LC which show more of her than the headshots? (In recent headshots, she appears to me to look more like a 13-yr. old. It seems that I read she weights 145 lbs. What are the chances that people could have seen them that day and not recognized that they were seeing an 8 and 10 year old?)

snipped by me --

I can't believe we've been posting and hashing for over a month and I have never read anyone ask about helmets!! I didn't even think about helmets!! And I never let my kids ride without helmets. This is why it's so great when new people come alongside us and participate in this discussion.

My 13 year old son is about 5'3" and weighs 140 pounds. He is HUGE, not overweight huge because he is beginning to look like a young man and he isn't really flabby. But, he is a big kid for his age and it's hard for me to imagine that Lyric was 145 pounds, but I guess it's possible. I think it's likely someone would think she is older than ten.



Now I'll go back and find Cindersoot's thread. I'm catching up from over most of today.

 

[cindersoot]

Otto, your pictures never cease to amaze. Yes, I think it is possible the girls could have been grabbed just out of sight of their home. Coincidentally, there are a lot of white vehicles included in the pic you provided. It looks like a pretty busy area though and I think more chances of being seen.... but not impossible. I think it would have to be a van to get two bikes in or a truck because it would have to have happened quickly and definitely more than 1 perp. The bikes are staged. How do we explain the girls scents at the lake? A piece of the girls clothing drug about? I think SapphireSteel mentioned that possibility. GrainneDhu thoughts?

I was amazed when I visited Evansdale on how darn busy the traffic is. Especially LaFayette and Brovan st.

 

[otto]

Otto, your pictures never cease to amaze. Yes, I think it is possible the girls could have been grabbed just out of sight of their home. Coincidentally, there are a lot of white vehicles included in the pic you provided. It looks like a pretty busy area though and I think more chances of being seen.... but not impossible. I think it would have to be a van to get two bikes in or a truck because it would have to have happened quickly and definitely more than 1 perp. The bikes are staged. How do we explain the girls scents at the lake? A piece of the girls clothing drug about? I think SapphireSteel mentioned that possibility. GrainneDhu thoughts?

There are a lot of trucks there too ... semi cabs. That may explain why police were looking at vans that travelled along River Forest Road.

If the bikes were staged and dogs track from oldest to most recent (hope I got that right), then perhaps the dogs should start tracking at the Collins home or at Maiden Lane.

 

[Bootsctr]

You're welcome - and yes, they are! I really liked the portraits too. One other thing from the article that made me smile:

Pink mohawks are not merely a fashion statement for three Elk Run Heights brothers.

Collin Yu, 9, and Ethan and Eric Yu, both 7, began sporting the spiked hairdos during softball and T-ball season.

When Elizabeth Collins, 9, and Lyric Cook-Morrissey, 10, went missing a month ago, they broke out the spray paint.

This was a very good article. I thought the pink mohawks were a great idea. Definitely will help keep people thinking about the girls. Just by reading the article you can tell this community loves these girls and is supporting their families and they want Lyric and Elizabeth home.