Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #38

[alioop]

The defence of provocation in Sec 304 Criminal Code QLD has the effect, if successfully proven by the accused, of reducing the conviction of murder to manslaughter and therefore a lesser sentence. It is a partial defence to murder, unlike a full defence like self defence, which would mean a not guilty verdict.

The reason QLD still has the partial defence of provocation, is because we have mandatory life sentencing for murder unlike some other states in Australia. In those states, the circumstances of the murder can be taken into account in sentencing, in effect taking into account any provocation by the deceased person. So they don’t need a separate defence of provocation.

Our sec 304 was last year tightened to limit the use of the provocation defence in situations where the provocation is verbal and also in the case where the accused and the deceased were in a relationship and the sudden provocation by the deceased is to end the relationship.

These changes last year will make it very difficult for GBC to use this defence of provocation in my opinion.

 

[Liadan]

Earlier, the court heard that Baden-Clay's mistress had insisted he warn his wife on the night of April 19 that both women would be at the same real estate conference the following day

Warning or threat against what? A confrontation? Maybe Allison should have been frightened? Sounds heavy & arrogant. Did TM feel she had the right to be there & not Allison?

hopefully I am on topic here ---

I reckon that GBC was VERY devious. I think that the plan of TM house was planted in Allisons diary by him and I think this would have occurred after the murder but before the Police took evidence. Maybe they did talk about TM's house but the last think she would need is a plan unless GBC was planning on framing Allison for breaking in? Don't think so SPECULATION!

And heaven forbid why anyone would worry about the two women being at the conference together - they worked together in close company for months and months. Allison doesn't seem like she was confrontational. Perhaps TM was liable to make a scene. I think this was more of an excuse by Tm to get GBC to act on a divorce - either you tell your wife we are still on or I will tell her at the conference.

 

[AAAA]

Earlier, the court heard that Baden-Clay's mistress had insisted he warn his wife on the night of April 19 that both women would be at the same real estate conference the following day

Warning or threat against what? A confrontation? Maybe Allison should have been frightened? Sounds heavy & arrogant. Did TM feel she had the right to be there & not Allison?

Maybe TM had said "it's me or her". Although myself, from past experience I hit it on the head full tilt and phoned the woman involved, while my husband listened in and said that's it, no more, ever! Maybe Allison didn't feel that it was ok to do so?

 

[they'll get you]

Possibly GBC was running so scared that night & couldn't cope, a widdle bit hurt & cracked under the pressure. No excuses for this!

 

[AAAA]

hopefully I am on topic here ---

I reckon that GBC was VERY devious. I think that the plan of TM house was planted in Allisons diary by him and I think this would have occurred after the murder but before the Police took evidence. Maybe they did talk about TM's house but the last think she would need is a plan unless GBC was planning on framing Allison for breaking in? Don't think so SPECULATION!

And heaven forbid why anyone would worry about the two women being at the conference together - they worked together in close company for months and months. Allison doesn't seem like she was confrontational. Perhaps TM was liable to make a scene. I think this was more of an excuse by Tm to get GBC to act on a divorce - either you tell your wife we are still on or I will tell her at the conference.

I don't think that he would be smart enough to put the house plan in after the fact.

 

[they'll get you]

I don't think that he would be smart enough to put the house plan in after the fact.

Would the police be able to carbon date the ink in the diary? I think that's the term for finding how old the ink was. If the police have checked all what we have been 'turning over' they have been buzy boyz and would have heaps of information. lease:

 

[BigT]

The defence of provocation in Sec 304 Criminal Code QLD has the effect, if successfully proven by the accused, of reducing the conviction of murder to manslaughter and therefore a lesser sentence. It is a partial defence to murder, unlike a full defence like self defence, which would mean a not guilty verdict.

The reason QLD still has the partial defence of provocation, is because we have mandatory life sentencing for murder unlike some other states in Australia. In those states, the circumstances of the murder can be taken into account in sentencing, in effect taking into account any provocation by the deceased person. So they don’t need a separate defence of provocation.

Our sec 304 was last year tightened to limit the use of the provocation defence in situations where the provocation is verbal and also in the case where the accused and the deceased were in a relationship and the sudden provocation by the deceased is to end the relationship.

These changes last year will make it very difficult for GBC to use this defence of provocation in my opinion.

This would have no reasonable chance of success IMO

 

[Maigret]

I don't think that he would be smart enough to put the house plan in after the fact.

I agree he was having enough trouble dressing himself and far too busy arranging his dollies and looking up how to appear more guilty (taking the fifth) :what:

 

[Maigret]

Maybe TM had said "it's me or her". Although myself, from past experience I hit it on the head full tilt and phoned the woman involved, while my husband listened in and said that's it, no more, ever! Maybe Allison didn't feel that it was ok to do so?

I think that Allison had had enough of his shenanigans and told him that he was to stop or the marriage would be over (even though they were having counseling he was still in daily contact with TM)
I think that's what precipitated whatever it was that went on that night ( been there done that - got the hole in the wall beside my head to enforce it)
:jail:

 

[The Observer]

Earlier, the court heard that Baden-Clay's mistress had insisted he warn his wife on the night of April 19 that both women would be at the same real estate conference the following day

Warning or threat against what? A confrontation? Maybe Allison should have been frightened? Sounds heavy & arrogant. Did TM feel she had the right to be there & not Allison?

As I have expressed previously, I believe IMO that TM intentionally insisted that GBC tell Allison that she was attending the conference the next day. I beleive TM knew that by insisting GBC tell Allison he was admitting he was in daily contact with her and therefore the relationship was still ongoing. IMO I think she knew it would ensue a fight possibly leading to the end of the marriage. IMO TM was fed up with being second fiddle to Allison and was likely just as manipulative as GBC was.

 

[enthralled]

The defence of provocation in Sec 304 Criminal Code QLD has the effect, if successfully proven by the accused, of reducing the conviction of murder to manslaughter and therefore a lesser sentence. It is a partial defence to murder, unlike a full defence like self defence, which would mean a not guilty verdict.

The reason QLD still has the partial defence of provocation, is because we have mandatory life sentencing for murder unlike some other states in Australia. In those states, the circumstances of the murder can be taken into account in sentencing, in effect taking into account any provocation by the deceased person. So they don’t need a separate defence of provocation.

Our sec 304 was last year tightened to limit the use of the provocation defence in situations where the provocation is verbal and also in the case where the accused and the deceased were in a relationship and the sudden provocation by the deceased is to end the relationship.

These changes last year will make it very difficult for GBC to use this defence of provocation in my opinion.

Thank you so much for that Alioop. Much appreciated.
I for one am so glad that there is less chance of that being accepted. To be honest I can't believe something as lame as that could be used in any case. Sometimes the legal system just doesn't make sense to me

 

[LollyPop]

As I have expressed previously, I believe IMO that TM intentionally insisted that GBC tell Allison that she was attending the conference the next day. I beleive TM knew that by insisting GBC tell Allison he was admitting he was in daily contact with her and therefore the relationship was still ongoing. IMO I think she knew it would ensue a fight possibly leading to the end of the marriage. IMO TM was fed up with being second fiddle to Allison and was likely just as manipulative as GBC was.

Agreed, Observer, but only to some extent. Even if TM had pushed the point, GBC could have chosen to say nothing. Possibly he was also expected to attend this conference? decided himself it was just getting all too difficult? Cracked? Who knows, but I agree that it may have been the thing that caused it to all go wrong.

 

[BigT]

Thank you so much for that Alioop. Much appreciated.
I for one am so glad that there is less chance of that being accepted. To be honest I can't believe something as lame as that could be used in any case. Sometimes the legal system just doesn't make sense to me

You must look at any situation from the point of view that the person presented for prosecution may be, or may not be, guilty as charged. The evidence will be presented and the facts will clarify the charge. In the circumstances where there is a defense, as lame as it may seem, if it were genuine you would want it heard. Picture yourself charged with murder after an unfortunate event where you had some serious concern for your life, and then someone hits their head and dies, you would want it heard. In this case you would need to produce evidence that you had serious concerns for your life, which defeats the purpose because everyone should have the benefit of feeling safe with a spouse or partner, and should never expect to die at their hands. For his reason this defense has no reasonable chance, but does have a place in the law.

 

[Curiousasacat]

You must look at any situation from the point of view that the person presented for prosecution may be, or may not be, guilty as charged. The evidence will be presented and the facts will clarify the charge. In the circumstances where there is a defense, as lame as it may seem, if it were genuine you would want it heard. Picture yourself charged with murder after an unfortunate event where you had some serious concern for your life, and then someone hits their head and dies, you would want it heard. In this case you would need to produce evidence that you had serious concerns for your life, which defeats the purpose because everyone should have the benefit of feeling safe with a spouse or partner, and should never expect to die at their hands. For his reason this defense has no reasonable chance, but does have a place in the law.

If it was an accident and provoked you would imagine one would call the police rather than dispose of the body. If I were on a jury,this would be the nail in his coffin.

 

[Maigret]

Boy it's quiet on here- looking forward to hearing some more snippets of evidence in September .
Any more news from Arthur Gorrie? Or sightings of the Prado?
Anything??

 

[Pseudonym]

If GBC did draw the map in Alison's diary ,why did he leave it for the police to find . He told the police the next morning that the affair had finished long ago , yet the diary shows it hadn't finished . Any ideas on this ? Had Alison hidden it and in his panic he couldn't find the diary ?

 

[LauraMars]

It definitely has died in here Maigret

Shame

Will be interesting to see what September brings. Was that a Neil Diamond song, or was that September Morn?

"And look how far we've come
So far from where we used to be
But not so far that we've forgotten
How it was before"

Hopefully a flicker of Justice for Allison will keep burning everywhere

 

[ollijack]

As I have expressed previously, I believe IMO that TM intentionally insisted that GBC tell Allison that she was attending the conference the next day. I beleive TM knew that by insisting GBC tell Allison he was admitting he was in daily contact with her and therefore the relationship was still ongoing. IMO I think she knew it would ensue a fight possibly leading to the end of the marriage. IMO TM was fed up with being second fiddle to Allison and was likely just as manipulative as GBC was.

Observer....I totally agree

 

[alioop]

You must look at any situation from the point of view that the person presented for prosecution may be, or may not be, guilty as charged. The evidence will be presented and the facts will clarify the charge. In the circumstances where there is a defense, as lame as it may seem, if it were genuine you would want it heard. Picture yourself charged with murder after an unfortunate event where you had some serious concern for your life, and then someone hits their head and dies, you would want it heard. In this case you would need to produce evidence that you had serious concerns for your life, which defeats the purpose because everyone should have the benefit of feeling safe with a spouse or partner, and should never expect to die at their hands. For his reason this defense has no reasonable chance, but does have a place in the law.

BigT I agree generally with your point, but wanted to say that in a defence of provocation you don't need to prove you had serious concern for your life. That is more a "self defence" defence. In the case of murder, provocation is something done by the deceased person that caused the accused to temporarily lose self control thereby committing murder. The test used is whether an ordinary person but with the characteristics of the accused, such as their race, sex, culture, intelligence, age, maturity etc, would have lost control in the same circumstances.

 

[alioop]

If GBC did draw the map in Alison's diary ,why did he leave it for the police to find . He told the police the next morning that the affair had finished long ago , yet the diary shows it hadn't finished . Any ideas on this ? Had Alison hidden it and in his panic he couldn't find the diary ?

I have wondered about the diary for some time. If it was a personal diary where she expressed her feelings, as opposed to my diary where I just keep appointments and notes of things to remember, would he have not wanted it found if he is responsible for her death. It could have lots of info in it about previous violence for example.

Maybe he couldn't find it, or in his panic didn't think of it. If he had time to dispose of the phone he could have disposed of the diary.