IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[Copper]

Pretty eerie 4th of July, once again driving by Meyers Lake on the way and then back from my holiday, this time knowing two little girls disappeared down there. Even more bizarre since the westbound lanes are now closed while the eastbound lanes are two-way.

 

[alliemay]

How do you know the perp is "long gone"? Maybe the perp has been back
50 times! Maybe the perp lives there! Maybe the perp is a neighbor! Maybe
the perp knows more about what's happening by the hour than you or LE
do!

The perp has a distinct advantage. HE IS THE PERP! You etal are spectators.

:banghead:

Yes unfortunately no one really knows for sure, I think sometimes we forgot to state that what we are saying is an opinion, and it may come across as being a known fact. Unless there is a link all is speculation. Maybe we get frustrated on here because there is nothing real to hang on to.

 

[Considering]

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_0c67e392-e7b8-11e2-9467-001a4bcf887a.html

Nothing much different in this article from the WCF Courier than the one from the Des Moines Register other than comments from family members.

"It's just hard, and it only gets harder," said Wylma Cook, the girls' grandmother.

Not having answers about what happened is difficult.

"It's frustrating because you want to know, and you don't get those answers," Drew Collins said.

Evansdale Police Chief Kent Smock said he shares the frustration that there has been little progress to report in the case.

Additional photos and comments from family members:

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/arti...w-purpose-no-comfort-Elizabeth-Collins-family

 

[georger]

Yes unfortunately no one really knows for sure, I think sometimes we forgot to state that what we are saying is an opinion, and it may come across as being a known fact. Unless there is a link all is speculation. Maybe we get frustrated on here because there is nothing real to hang on to.

My first thought was it had something to do with Drew's case. To convince
him not to testify against others. He apparently went ahead and testified
(or already had); then it moves to retaliation. Drug people will go to great
lengths to prove a point.

Next choice: sexual abduction. This choice could in fact be related to the
first choice! Drew and his family had become well known prior to the girls
being drawn in for more family grief. This family has had more than it's share
of serious problems. It's almost of Biblical proportions.

One thing is certain. Our frustration is nothing compared to the Hell the
girls went through, their families, friends and the community.

I seriously doubt Klunder had anything to do with this. Nobody has
provided the means which would have been shouted to the rooftops
if there was an obvious connection provable.

:seeya:

 

[artzypantz]

I agree. They should have taken dogs. I watched an old episode of New Detectives where they brought in scent dogs. They were blood hounds so maybe they were cadaver dogs. Anyhoo, they found this lady's car who was missing in a parking lot not too far from her home. It had been several weeks at least since she had been missing. The dogs tracked the woman's scent back to her home and then to the neighbor's home who was eventually convicted in her murder. I was pretty amazed at what these dogs did. It also was along a busy highway that they were able to track the scent. I don't think the perp is a genius. Just very lucky! They should have taken dogs. Who knows what else the dogs could have found?

Just jumping in the conversation here.................
I posted the following way back when in thread #29 for E & L, the link still works .............

This is OT, but i found it very interesting and wanted to share. Maybe the success rate comes soley from the handler of the cadaver dogs.

Artzy

http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news/...p/-/index.html

Police say dogs have unearthed a human skull and jawbone in a northeast Ohio neighborhood, and the search is on for other human remains.

Youngstown police Lt. Douglas Bobovnyik said investigators believe the jawbone and skull found last month are part of the same skeleton, but they have not been able to confirm it.

The (Youngstown) Vindicator reports that since the initial discoveries were made by neighborhood dogs, investigators are considering attaching GPS devices and using the dogs to locate the other remains.

Police cadaver dogs trained in searching for decomposing human flesh have been brought in, but they had no success.

Read more: http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news/...#ixzz2NpTWfWLp
__________________
MOO ~~~ ArtzyPantz

 

[georger]

Just jumping in the conversation here.................
I posted the following way back when in thread #29 for E & L, the link still works .............

This is OT, but i found it very interesting and wanted to share. Maybe the success rate comes soley from the handler of the cadaver dogs.

Artzy

http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news/...p/-/index.html

Police say dogs have unearthed a human skull and jawbone in a northeast Ohio neighborhood, and the search is on for other human remains.

Youngstown police Lt. Douglas Bobovnyik said investigators believe the jawbone and skull found last month are part of the same skeleton, but they have not been able to confirm it.

The (Youngstown) Vindicator reports that since the initial discoveries were made by neighborhood dogs, investigators are considering attaching GPS devices and using the dogs to locate the other remains.

Police cadaver dogs trained in searching for decomposing human flesh have been brought in, but they had no success.

Read more: http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news/...#ixzz2NpTWfWLp
__________________
MOO ~~~ ArtzyPantz

It would be interesting to run a few of those dogs around 7-Bridges and see what turns up. Maybe there are more bodies out there? Maybe somebody should give these guys in Ohio a call ...

:twocents:

 

[Grainne Dhu]

BBM - makes me think of poor little Sandra Cantu and her perp - Melissa ? - her last name fails me at the moment.

I think Klunder was sadistic. In everything that we do know about him and his past attacks, they were vicious and not necessarily sexual at the time he attacked. Ugh! Truly a monster! My problem with Klunder is that he almost fell into our lap. Too easy. I have no problem placing him in Evansdale, but apparently LE is not making that connection so easily - and they know more than we do. Hopefully, they will let us know how Klunder was ruled out . . . if he is.

Melissa Huckaby was the name of the perp that killed Sandra Cantu.

The time lapse makes me think that LE may have placed Klunder in Evansdale around the target time... but can't get any further. It might seem unlikely but such things have happened plenty of times in the past. If you look into the history of any serial killer, there were other murders happening at the same time that were unrelated.

While Evansdale is a small town, it is part of a metro complex, so it's not as small as the population suggests.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

:rockon: And if the perp had just been there hours before the bodies were found, just checking on things?

Even if the the perp had been there, he had to have used a vehicle to get there and leave. Following a track from someone in a vehicle is an iffy proposition at the best of times. I don't know of any reputable dog handler that gives it more than a 50% chance, if that. Some dogs can do it some of the time.

The more possible turns off on the road, the less accurate vehicle tracking becomes. Interstates have limited access and egress, so that is where the most successes have taken place. There are no interstates near 7 Bridges; it's all 2 lanes and the tracking dog would have had to check every single gravel road intersection, driveway and field entrance. Probably in the neighbourhood of checking 10 possible turn offs per mile of road. If the dog makes one single mistake, then the whole exercise is pointless and under such conditions, the dog would have had the chance to make hundreds of mistakes an hour.

And then there was the weather to consider. We had a snowy winter and we only get about 24 hours warning of a blizzard moving in. The clock was ticking for LE to gather forensic evidence at the scene.

Finally, while LE has a few SAR trained dogs, in this country the vast majority of SAR handlers are volunteers. Just training is the equivalent of a full time UNPAID job. Sending a very limited resource out on a wild goose chase is a quick way to burn out volunteers and develop a bad reputation. SAR people trade gossip, just like any small, highly specialised group of people. If a certain department or agency gets a reputation for bad deployments or useless deployments, they are likely to discover that it is more and more difficult to get volunteers to deploy.

 

[Dr. Know?]

If Klunder drove his vehicle back in July 2012 into the deepest water, or had it demolished, or sold it to jo moe without giving his real name etc...with an abandonded title, no title or salvage title, there might not be anyway to find it via DMV unless someone tries to get it titled again. Craig's list is full of salvaged, no title & abandoned titles out here. I'm sure that has been looked into for the search of the white SUV.

jmo

Josh Powell's brother Michael, had his vehicle that many suspect held Susan's remains, demolished. They found it, had cadaver dogs hit on it but when tested, it was inconclusive it was Susan who had been in that trunk via DNA testing. (mop, cleaned before pickup)

 

[Foxfire]

Melissa Huckaby was the name of the perp that killed Sandra Cantu.

The time lapse makes me think that LE may have placed Klunder in Evansdale around the target time... but can't get any further. It might seem unlikely but such things have happened plenty of times in the past. If you look into the history of any serial killer, there were other murders happening at the same time that were unrelated.

While Evansdale is a small town, it is part of a metro complex, so it's not as small as the population suggests.

RE: While Evansdale is a small town, it is part of a metro complex, so it's not as small as the population suggests.

True Grainne Dhu, but imo, Evansdale being a small town may be another missing piece of the puzzle in MJ Klunder's pattern...KS & DH were also abducted from a small town.

Experienced psychopathic sexual predators as was MJ Klunder, are very aware of the investigative strategies, forensics, and other procedures utilized by law enforcement to link their crimes. This is evidenced by his use of various rural jurisdictions, stranger victims, methods of abduction, pre-planned ritual grounds, varying victim disposal, abduction/rape kit, etc.
MJK, imo, was very well versed, organized, and driven by drug induced fantasy and rage..

Heartless evil sociopaths such as MJK, who take pleasure from another human being's pain and the control of life and death over their victims, are masters of deception. Although low achievers, they are usually of higher intelligence, hone their skills with each abduction, and in many cases hybrids of predators past..

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...0c67e392-e7b8-11e2-9467-001a4bcf887a.html#_=_

Evansdale Police Chief Kent Smock said he shares the frustration that there has been little progress to report in the case.

"I've never run into a case like this where there is just so little evidence that we found at the scene," he said. "This case has taken so many different twists and turns as we've followed up on it."

http://altoonaherald.desmoinesregist...ssey=topicpage
(snipped & BBM for focus)

Officials will look for links to other cases
They will attempt to determine if Klunder was involved in others

State investigators in coming months will conduct a painstaking examination of potential similarities between the kidnapping and murder of a Dayton teenager and missing person cases in Iowa, a state official said Monday.

Potential connections are already being analyzed between Kathlynn Shepard’s murder and the slayings of two eastern Iowa cousins.

“Thankfully, we know for every county, every city, what unsolved missing persons cases they have,” said Gerard Meyers, assistant director of field operations of the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation. “We’ll want to look and see if there are any attributes from those cases that are at all consistent with this case.”

The analysis could, if warranted, go back years, Meyers said, including as far as Klunder’s boyhood.

 

[threecrazykids]

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_0c67e392-e7b8-11e2-9467-001a4bcf887a.html

Nothing much different in this article from the WCF Courier than the one from the Des Moines Register other than comments from family members.






Additional photos and comments from family members:

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/arti...w-purpose-no-comfort-Elizabeth-Collins-family

Interesting points in the article:

SBM

Drew and Heather have poured themselves into causes tied to the girls’ deaths, now considered homicides.

The Collinses have devoted themselves to causes related to the girls' deaths, including lobbying state officials to approve tougher penalties for sex offenses.

Again...either they are completely ASSUMING that this is a sexually based offense, or they have been made aware of a cause in the girls deaths.

Do you guys feel that they (because they are friends with LE) have been given hints to some inside info as to this being a sexually driven offense?

Lowery - "There is an absence of facts and information that law enforcement has to work through," he said". ANOTHER admission that they don't have facts to back up any miniscule amount of evidence they were able to gather. :banghead:


Also:

Evansdale Police Chief Kent Smock said that although family members were interviewed and allegations against them were followed “long and hard,” no one is considered a suspect.
“At this point, they’re grieving family members missing their daughters and nieces,” he said.

Looks like Smock is the first to actually make a statement that would indicate that NONE of the parents are considered a suspect. Not quite sure what his reference to "At this point" is suppose to mean though...that is a very strange way to "clear" someone. :facepalm:

And I just can't ignore Heather's comment which is pretty much status quo from day 1: “In order to be a productive person and not dwell on this, I can’t think about it,” Heather said.

 

[Bootsctr]

Interesting points in the article:

SBM

Drew and Heather have poured themselves into causes tied to the girls’ deaths, now considered homicides.

The Collinses have devoted themselves to causes related to the girls' deaths, including lobbying state officials to approve tougher penalties for sex offenses.

Again...either they are completely ASSUMING that this is a sexually based offense, or they have been made aware of a cause in the girls deaths.

Do you guys feel that they (because they are friends with LE) have been given hints to some inside info as to this being a sexually driven offense?

Lowery - "There is an absence of facts and information that law enforcement has to work through," he said". ANOTHER admission that they don't have facts to back up any miniscule amount of evidence they were able to gather. :banghead:


Also:

Evansdale Police Chief Kent Smock said that although family members were interviewed and allegations against them were followed “long and hard,” no one is considered a suspect.
“At this point, they’re grieving family members missing their daughters and nieces,” he said.

Looks like Smock is the first to actually make a statement that would indicate that NONE of the parents are considered a suspect. Not quite sure what his reference to "At this point" is suppose to mean though...that is a very strange way to "clear" someone. :facepalm:

And I just can't ignore Heather's comment which is pretty much status quo from day 1: “In order to be a productive person and not dwell on this, I can’t think about it,” Heather said.

Excellent summation 3CK! At first, I believed because the Collins were tight with LE they had been told IT was a sexual predator. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps LE said MORE THAN LIKELY it was a sexually motivated abduction. Maybe LE wanted to give consolation to the Collins that it could not have been a family member involved with the girls and their untimely deaths. The Collins took the "more than likely" and ran with IT IS a sexual predator that took our girls. It would be easier, IMO, to think it was a complete stranger rather than a family member who did this awful deed. Regarding Heather's comment, that just blows me away. I cannot comprehend it. I, for one, would be thinking about 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year until the evil one was caught and behind bars FOREVER!

 

[pearl]

Grainne Dhu,
I have a question for you if you would be kind enough to answer it. It is about tracking dogs. Is there a difference in dogs in that some are "air" trackers and some are "ground" trackers? I grew up in south FL where hundreds of thousands of acres of sugar cane is grown, many drainage ditches, canals, etc there. There was a minimum security correctional facility there. It did not have its own k9 unit. There was a group of hunters in our community who would lend their dogs to the correctional facility when there was an escape. My father was one of these hunters. We had a blue tick hound that the officers always used because they said he was a true tracker, an "air" tracker that could follow scents above the ground where other dogs had to use ground scents. Daddy always said he trailed with his nose in the air and not on the ground. I am probably wrong in assuming there is a difference.

 

[roseofsharon]

Would this be the type of vehicle LE is talking about?

This post is for vehicle description confirmation only.

http://central.oregonfreeads.net/ads/1990-white-chevy-suburban-1300obo/


TIA

 

[cindersoot]

It's been almost one year and still nothing.

 

[georger]

Even if the the perp had been there, he had to have used a vehicle to get there and leave. Following a track from someone in a vehicle is an iffy proposition at the best of times. I don't know of any reputable dog handler that gives it more than a 50% chance, if that. Some dogs can do it some of the time.

Nowhere have I suggested that dogs can track vehicles! Unless of course
it would be the scent of something biological attached to a slow moving
vehicle - I once saw a dog track a dead cow being hauled on a tractor
flatbed for some distance! [That kind of thing]. I am a farm kid - I know
what dogs can and cannot do.

On the other hand, it is completely reasonable to wonder what else may
have been buried or dumped at 7-Bridges since obviously the girls were
dumped there. What other secrets does 7-Bridge hold? Dogs could be
useful perhaps in answering that question... just as satellite images of
7-Bridges for the period in question might be useful? For all I know there
is a satellite images of the hunter finding the girls ? Homeland Security
could link to that information if it exists ...

:seeya:

 

[threecrazykids]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...w-purpose-no-comfort-Elizabeth-Collins-family

Ok...at the 1:20-21 mark - Heather's look toward the camera literally made every hair on my body stand up. :scared:

Maybe this is harsh but from day 1 I have never got the feeling that these two are really a team. I have seen so, so many interviews and they just never have given me the vibe of really being together (I hope you guys all get what I mean).

There is just such a distance in their body language, words, expressions, etc. It would be different if one interview showed them in a different light...but it's the same tone, appearance, vibe....very distant emotionally and physically from each other and I've never seen them waiver from that distant vibe...regardless of their words.

 

[Foxfire]

Would this be the type of vehicle LE is talking about?

This post is for vehicle description confirmation only.

http://central.oregonfreeads.net/ads/1990-white-chevy-suburban-1300obo/


TIA

roseofsharon, imo, it is, but due to the vague description released by LE, it is difficult to say. There is no logical reason for LE to release such a vague description of the VOI, if they truly want the public's help, imo..

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Grainne Dhu,
I have a question for you if you would be kind enough to answer it. It is about tracking dogs. Is there a difference in dogs in that some are "air" trackers and some are "ground" trackers? I grew up in south FL where hundreds of thousands of acres of sugar cane is grown, many drainage ditches, canals, etc there. There was a minimum security correctional facility there. It did not have its own k9 unit. There was a group of hunters in our community who would lend their dogs to the correctional facility when there was an escape. My father was one of these hunters. We had a blue tick hound that the officers always used because they said he was a true tracker, an "air" tracker that could follow scents above the ground where other dogs had to use ground scents. Daddy always said he trailed with his nose in the air and not on the ground. I am probably wrong in assuming there is a difference.

A good dog uses the technique best suited to the conditions. Sometimes that means the dog's nose is practically buried in the ground, sometimes that means the dog's nose is up in the air. It all depends on the environmental conditions at the time. Temperature, air pressure, humidity, type of vegetation, terrain, etc, all play a part.

Rather than look at a dog's style of tracking, I'd look at the dog's results and the conditions that the dog has the most success with.

It also depends on the conditions the dog is used to working. Dogs that are used to very humid conditions can be totally baffled in desert conditions, for example.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Nowhere have I suggested that dogs can track vehicles! Unless of course
it would be the scent of something biological attached to a slow moving
vehicle - I once saw a dog track a dead cow being hauled on a tractor
flatbed for some distance! [That kind of thing]. I am a farm kid - I know
what dogs can and cannot do.

On the other hand, it is completely reasonable to wonder what else may
have been buried or dumped at 7-Bridges since obviously the girls were
dumped there. What other secrets does 7-Bridge hold? Dogs could be
useful perhaps in answering that question... just as satellite images of
7-Bridges for the period in question might be useful? For all I know there
is a satellite images of the hunter finding the girls ? Homeland Security
could link to that information if it exists ...

:seeya:

Actually, some tracking dogs have some success in following someone who gets into a vehicle. There are so many factors possible, though, that I don't know anyone whose training I respect who would say their dog can do it consistently. For instance, older cars tend to be more leaky than newer cars, some road conditions are more conducive to scenting than other road conditions, etc. It's not impossible but it's not a slam dunk, either.

Bremer County has access to the two K9s that Black Hawk County has and at least one of those K9s is cross trained for human remains detection.

For human remains detection, the ideal conditions are no wind and an area cleared of personnel. Trying to use an HRD dog with a news helicopter low overhead would be an exercise in futility.

In Iowa, there's generally a window around dawn and again around sunset when any wind tends to die down. If I were in charge of the investigation, I would arrange for the HRD dog/handler team to come out about an hour before dawn. That is when the window of still air is likely to occur and that is when media helicopters are least likely to be buzzing around overheard, stirring up the air currents. With luck and good weather conditions, the air would have been still all night, allowing scent to pool.

I sure wouldn't tell the media about the conditions I was looking for or whether a dog had been deployed unless the media spotted the dog first.