Madeleine McCann general discussion thread #28

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What was obvious ??
How was it marked ?
Where did the handler go with the dogs ?
Have you watched the footage ?

Eddie smells *CADAVER* odour around the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car

" The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details " M.Grimes

'Ten cars are parked in an underground parking garage. 'Eddie' and 'Keela', dogs that are trained to detect cadaver odour and human blood'

We don't know what the dog smelled. IT could have been blood, decaying cells, WE don't know what the dog is thinking.

Except the one car is marked with tons of madeleine posters.

 

[Captain_Khan]

The shot is close to the car. He actually almost touches the car. It bothers me. If it does not bother others, That is fine, But It bothers me because it is different behavior than I see with the other cars in which it seems he is almost directing the dog to be quick to move on, on some of the other cars.

Please can you post a link to the video you have seen? I am concerned we are discussing different things. I am watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8lrrMoUr3OA
where you only actually see two cars, and Grime appears to use the same commands and actions both times. If there is a longer version where more cars are investigated, that would be of great interest.

 

[haden]

It could have been.

But they all made it out of Portugal alive.

The DNA was found in the cadaver sites.

Sorry but these are not cadaver sites.
These dogs we know alert on the dry blood too from living humans.

 

[SapphireSteel]

From Goncalo, on the dogs performance, first hand -

The investigation starts in apartment 5A. The grey jeep transporting the dogs pulls into the car park in front of the building. There is hope and anxiety on people's faces. Martin Grime gets out of the car, holding Eddie on a tight leash. He takes it off and orders Eddie to sit down. Instead of obeying as would be expected of such a well-trained dog, Eddie immediately rushes into the building. He then goes to and fro between the lounge and the bedroom in an agitated manner. Martin wonders what could be making his animal so nervous and calls him back to give precise orders. An investigator is filming the entire scene. A little later, Eddie is examining the floor in the parents' bedroom, near the wardrobe, when he lets out a strident howl, indicating that he has detected a cadaver odour. The investigators have hardly recovered from their amazement, when another, equally impressive, howl startles them. This time, Eddie has picked out that same odour under the window, just behind the sofa, on one of the walls in the lounge. That evening, in apartment 5A, the investigators begin to glimpse what might have happened.

At around 10pm, police officers see Gerry McCann, going past the apartment at the wheel of his hire car, a Renault Mégane Scenic, an impenetrable look on his face.

Then it's Keela's turn to intervene. She points her muzzle at the same place where Eddie gave the alert: traces of blood are found on the tiling between the window and the sofa. Outside, Eddie barks twice: on the veranda at the back of the building and in the garden, just below it. At this place, the dog's bark is weaker and might mean "maybe, who knows....". Thus from the indications provided by Eddie, we can pinpoint the places where the body was moved around. Apartments 5B, 5D and 5H, where the McCanns' friends stayed, are examined that same night. The investigators are expecting new developments. However, nothing happens. Eddie does not show the slightest reaction. Therefore, Keela does not get involved.

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann.

http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.b...d-max=2009-06-08T14:18:00-07:00&max-results=1

Note this book is widely and officially accepted as a faithful rendering of the investigation.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Please can you post a link to the video you have seen? I am concerned we are discussing different things. I am watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8lrrMoUr3OA
where you only actually see two cars, and Grime appears to use the same commands and actions both times. If there is a longer version where more cars are investigated, that would be of great interest.

I posted the video in a prior post There are more than 2 cars for sure.

 

[Donjeta]

If it is not unique to Madeleine it excludes her. If it was her it would have all 19 markers. That it has only 15 means to me it is someone else.

That is not necessarily so IMO. It seems to me that they just found incomplete profiles. It was said that the source of the DNA was three to five people, and they only found 37 alleles between them.

 

[Little Jedi]

And how did they alert on DNA belonging to Gerry McCann on the car key or to DNA of three PJ forensics specialists found on the wall?

:banghead:

They don't alert on DNA !!!

Eddie smells *CADAVER* odour - (EVRD) dog
Keela (CSI) dog, trained to find ONLY *human blood*

 

[SapphireSteel]

Sorry but these are not cadaver sites.
These dogs we know alert on the dry blood too from living humans.

Where's the proof of this statement?

 

[haden]

From this link
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal of "Fact" 29
Amaral book

Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.

More recently, it’s Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.

Amaral has got it wrong. There was no body. It was something that looked like it was a piece of a skull fragment. But it wasn't according to the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit

In an email on April 8, the Oxford laboratory told Jersey police the fragment ‘ain’t bone’. It followed this up with a detailed letter on May 1, which Mr Harper claims not to have received, confirming the find was not bone but, in view of its curvature, more likely to be a seed casing or piece of coconut.

 

[Captain_Khan]

Sniffer Dogs search the McCanns Hired Car - YouTube

Found it.

If anything, that longer video convinces me more. In the one I posted, when they visit the apartment, Grime talks about the dog's body language, and in particular the position of the dog's head when he has the scent. He mentions how, when he opened the door, the dog lifted its head high as it already had the scent.

In the video you posted, once the dog has reached the McCann's car, he starts running around and getting excited - with his head held very clearly upwards. Now Grimes knows that means his animal has the scent, so surely he's going to start paying a lot more attention to figure out where it is coming from. He knows the dog only started behaving in this way after coming into contact with that particular car, so he's going to call the dog back and make it signal where it picked that scent up from.

I'm now more convinced that there was nothing untoward.

 

[taotoo]

Poor Grime, yet another innocent person whose reputation has been smeared.

Grime was actually PC Grime, dog handler for the British Police. Eddie and Keela were specially trained by PC Grime and the British, including trips to Quantico.

They were the most reliable dogs arguably, in the world.

Yet PC Grime is now also part of some dire plot to frame the innocent McCanns, as were the entire PJ, the British police (initially) and their own paid private detectives.

I honestly feel like I've gone down the rabbit hole on this thread sometimes.

I don't see a plot, I see an individual whose livelihood is based on positive identifications, and not adverse to a bit of blatant cueing. I would question the source of "most reliable dogs arguably, in the world", and wonder if they've ever discovered evidence rather than just corroborate that which had been previously found (and which the handler had prior knowledge of).

 

[haden]

Where's the proof of this statement?

Oh.. I have posted it 100 times so far.

It is in files, Martin Grimes rogatory interview



Martin Grime:
The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'?
MG: The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

 

[gord]

It could have been.

But they all made it out of Portugal alive.

The DNA was found in the cadaver sites.

Sorry but this doesn't make sense cadaver cannot be tested ? DNA fragments cannot be differentiated from a living person or dead person. The car was examined some time even after the McCanns rented it. In fact it was driven by the pj and stored. DNA is found everywhere and I by its nature it is dead cells . fragments. Even if body exuding cadaver scent had been stored in the boot they would still find DNA from other sources



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[haden]

:banghead:

They don't alert on DNA !!!

Eddie smells *CADAVER* odour - (EVRD) dog
Keela (CSI) dog, trained to find ONLY *human blood*

UNTRUE.

Eddie also alerts on live human blood. Dried.

SOURCE: Rogarotory police interview of Martin Grime, the dogs handler

 

[Captain_Khan]

UNTRUE.

Eddie also alerts on live human blood. Dried.

SOURCE: Rogarotory police interview of Martin Grime, the dogs handler

Blood does not equal DNA. Human beings leave trace amounts of their DNA wherever they go, but they do not tend to leave blood behind.

When the dog finds blood, further investigation is required to determine just whose blood it is. As I understand it, McCann DNA was found in the areas the dog alerted.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Found it.

If anything, that longer video convinces me more. In the one I posted, when they visit the apartment, Grime talks about the dog's body language, and in particular the position of the dog's head when he has the scent. He mentions how, when he opened the door, the dog lifted its head high as it already had the scent.

In the video you posted, once the dog has reached the McCann's car, he starts running around and getting excited - with his head held very clearly upwards. Now Grimes knows that means his animal has the scent, so surely he's going to start paying a lot more attention to figure out where it is coming from. He knows the dog only started behaving in this way after coming into contact with that particular car, so he's going to call the dog back and make it signal where it picked that scent up from.

I'm now more convinced that there was nothing untoward.

Sorry, I see it differently. It looks to me that the dog is done and moving on to the next car and is called back. There is the point that he is excited but that to me seems on cue with handler.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Oh.. I have posted it 100 times so far.

It is in files, Martin Grimes rogatory interview



Martin Grime:
The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'?
MG: The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

The fluid in the Renault was not blood.

ETA: I stand corrected, blood was located in the Renault.

 

[haden]

Blood does not equal DNA. Human beings leave trace amounts of their DNA wherever they go, but they do not tend to leave blood behind.

When the dog finds blood, further investigation is required to determine just whose blood it is. As I understand it, McCann DNA was found in the areas the dog alerted.

And? There was no further investigation?

 

[~n/t~]

Maybe we should get one of our professional fellow posters to chime in on the discussion. I think Sarx and Oriah are handlers if I'm not mistaken. I'll go check to see if they can help us understand.

 

[haden]

The fluid in the Renault was not blood.

Said who?
I am not aware that the DNA in Renault was ever scientifically identified as 'something recognisable'.