OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned, 8 Oct 2009 - #11

[BlithePlum]

Something that's been weighing on my mind is the amount of crazy weather we have had since the disappearance. There was a massive Christmas Eve blizzard one year, a few major thunderstorms with heavy rain, etc. I don't know much about human remains and how likely they are to be moved by the elements and my mind is doing a lot of wondering...is there a possibility that the location where these bodies were discovered may not be the place where they expired?

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[wfgodot]

It's been years, and as my siggy shows, I have fibro fog, so memory isn't always the greatest. For some reason I keep thinking there was some family issues going on at the time of their disappearance. A business, lawsuit, something. I remember people wondering why more wasn't being done to try to find them. Does anyone else remember? I can try to go back through all the pages and see if I can find it. Might be in those first postings, but doubt seriously that the links work now.

Lawsuits and the Jamisons:

Eufaula man filed lawsuit against father. (Daily Oklahoman, 02 May 2010)

 

[OkieGranny]

This is a symptom of hypothermia and is called "paradoxical undressing." Wiki said it occurs in 25% of hypothermia cases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_undressing#Paradoxical_undressing

There was a in 1959 in February in Northern Russia (Soviet Union), called the Dyatlov Pass incident, that is quite famous and controversial in Russia.

Does anyone know the temperature when the disappeared and if there was rain (I recall hearing of storms)? Was the vehicle drivable?

I just read that page and came over here to post about it, but I see you beat me to it, lol.

The nearest historical weather info I could find was for Stigler, about 25 miles to the north, and McAlester, about 40 miles west. Thinking about microclimates, there are various factors such as altitude and north slope vs. south slope that could make temps much cooler up on a mountain than in nearby flatlands.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KGZL/2009/10/8/DailyHistory.html

Here are the daily high/low temps and precipitation for Stigler:

Wed, Oct 8....86/57....0.01 (notes thunderstorm but just a trace of rain?)
Thu, Oct 9.....59/48....1.33 (thunderstorm)
Fri, Oct 10.....50/46....0.0
Sat, Oct 11....50/50....0.0

And for McAlester:

Wed, Oct 8....86/59....2.27
Thu, Oct 9.....57/48....1.76
Fri, Oct 10.....52/46....0.0
Sat, Oct 11....55/46....0.03

So there was definitely a sharp temperature drop from the 8th to the 9th, with rain and thunderstorms in the area.

 

[Mendara]

Do we know yet if they were buried or just laying out? TIA

 

[wfgodot]

There was a in 1959 in February in Northern Russia (Soviet Union), called the Dyatlov Pass incident, that is quite famous and controversial in Russia.

snip

o/t but couldn't let this pass - fascinating case, about which much has been written:

Russia - The Dyatlov Pass Incident, Feb 1959 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[wfgodot]

In Tags (below), I've added mtrooper's best estimate coords as to where bodies were found (b) and labeled the truck coords (t). Also the section (28-T 7N-20E) of body location in Grassy Lake Hollow.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Something that's been weighing on my mind is the amount of crazy weather we have had since the disappearance. There was a massive Christmas Eve blizzard one year, a few major thunderstorms with heavy rain, etc. I don't know much about human remains and how likely they are to be moved by the elements and my mind is doing a lot of wondering...is there a possibility that the location where these bodies were discovered may not be the place where they expired?

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I pulled up the weather for McAllister on 10/8/09. I don't know if the closest station or not.

Early evening, it was 82 and overcast. By midnight, it was just under 61 and they had 3-4 inches of rain.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMLC/2009/10/8/DailyHistory.html?MR=1

If they did walk and got lost, and then got caught in that, it could be very rough night.

 

[2Hope4]

One of the early reportings from page one:

http://newsok.com/authorities-seek-clues-in-search-for-eufaula-family/article/3410976#ixzz0UfzHqkWk

Police, fire and highway patrol crews, along with several volunteers, began a search Saturday. Six dog teams joined the search Sunday, but nothing other than the pickup was found, said the undersheriff.

Also:
Protective order against his father which was later dismissed.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs, money, & dog found abandoned, Oct 2009 - #1

 

[OkieGranny]

Something that's been weighing on my mind is the amount of crazy weather we have had since the disappearance. There was a massive Christmas Eve blizzard one year, a few major thunderstorms with heavy rain, etc. I don't know much about human remains and how likely they are to be moved by the elements and my mind is doing a lot of wondering...is there a possibility that the location where these bodies were discovered may not be the place where they expired?

Looking at photos from the searches and satellite views, it's such a heavily wooded area that it seems like an intact body would get hung up on vegetation before sliding very far. I can imagine a skull rolling downhill and other bones gradually migrating downward, but it would probably only be bits and pieces that actually reached the bottom of the slope if they started out very high up.

I'm under the impression that the skeletons were all in one place and relatively intact, other than animals dragging away some parts of them, but I could be wrong. I just don't remember any mention of investigators having to extend the search further out to find enough remains to be able to identify them as an adult male and female and a small child.

Mendara, the bodies were not buried, just covered by four years' worth of fallen leaves.

 

[watcher9]

BBM: And in the middle of nowhere, to boot!

I'm of the mind that if it is NOT murder/ suicide, (and I actually think it was) then they got lost, one of them unable to continue walking, they remained together trying to get the immobile one of the group up and moving, THEN succumbed to the elements.

I discount the mother's theory of a cult being involved. I also don't believe it was a drug buying deal gone wrong.

I guess there is the possibility of Madyson getting hurt or dying and her parents wouldn't leave her side or one of them losing their temper after accusing the other of causing her injury or death.

If one of the parents were hurt, I think the other would try to get help.

Or, there is the possibility of the three of them stepping/climbing down into a bed of rattlesnakes. Yeah I watch Rattlesnake Republic and do know that is in Texas.

If the site is as remote as they say, I can't see a perp carrying their bodies in to it and neither can I see them being forced to walk that far before they were killed. Maybe someone could have walked up on them out in the woods? Maybe they crossed into someone's property by mistake?

If the site is near a campground, that could throw throw out some more theories.

 

[2Hope4]

http://newsok.com/gallery/articleid/3458229/pictures?display=nextgen

These are photos from early in the investigation of the family's disappearance. Can anyone tell what's in the plastic baggy on the truck seat?

 

[wfgodot]

Do we know yet if they were buried or just laying out? TIA

The Oklahoman is I think the best single source for accurate info; this is from their initial article after remains were discovered:

Gary Perkinson, assistant special agent in charge for the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, said it would have been easy to miss the location in the fall of 2009 with heavy tree cover and falling leaves potentially obscuring the bodies.

http://newsok.com/skeletal-remains-...sing-eufaula-family-osbi-says/article/3905849

From that I think we can intuit that the bodies were not buried. (Could be wrong of course.)

The Oklahoman, incidentally, now has an investigative reporter - Andrew Knittle - working on the case; he did the article published today featuring the interview with Ms. Kokotan.

 

[2Hope4]

The coats might give a clue to when they may have left the truck there.

Date Max Min
Oct 8 86 59
Oct 9 57 48
Oct 10 52 46
Oct 13 66 59
Oct 14 64 55
Oct 15 59 51
Oct 16 64 45
Oct 17 59 41
Oct 18 64 35
Oct 19 73 50
http://www.wunderground.com/history/...lyHistory.html

Their taking coats only makes sense if they went out at night or expected to be out at night (but not on Oct 8!) -- or if they went out on one of the days it was in the 50's. If they left the coats in the truck, it must not have been one of the days in the lower 50's.

I was thinking about the dog. Maybe they went deer hunting and it wouldn't work to have the dog out there, and then they got lost in the woods.
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Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs, money, & dog found abandoned, Oct 2009 - #1

 

[watcher9]

Looking at photos from the searches and satellite views, it's such a heavily wooded area that it seems like an intact body would get hung up on vegetation before sliding very far. I can imagine a skull rolling downhill and other bones gradually migrating downward, but it would probably only be bits and pieces that actually reached the bottom of the slope if they started out very high up.

I'm under the impression that the skeletons were all in one place and relatively intact, other than animals dragging away some parts of them, but I could be wrong. I just don't remember any mention of investigators having to extend the search further out to find enough remains to be able to identify them as an adult male and female and a small child.

Mendara, the bodies were not buried, just covered by four years' worth of fallen leaves.

BBM
I know at one time this was speculation, but was it ever confirmed?
Most reports had mentioned a grave.

 

[OkieGranny]

http://newsok.com/gallery/articleid/3458229/pictures?display=nextgen

These are photos from early in the investigation of the family's disappearance. Can anyone tell what's in the plastic baggy on the truck seat?

They look like money bands. Similar the $10,000 wrapper in this photo:

http://www.count-money.com/bands.html

 

[OkieGranny]

BBM
I know at one time this was speculation, but was it ever confirmed?
Most reports had mentioned a grave.

"Grave" might be an assumption made by a lazy reporter.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

The coats might give a clue to when they may have left the truck there.

Date Max Min
Oct 8 86 59

http://www.wunderground.com/history/...lyHistory.html

Their taking coats only makes sense if they went out at night or expected to be out at night (but not on Oct 8!) -- or if they went out on one of the days it was in the 50's. If they left the coats in the truck, it must not have been one of the days in the lower 50's.

The temperature decline was about 20 degrees (82 to 61) from about 7PM-Midnight on 10/8/09. From the conditions, consistent wind, heavy rain, it would be unlikely they went out in that without warm clothing.

I was thinking about the dog. Maybe they went deer hunting and it wouldn't work to have the dog out there, and then they got lost in the woods.
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If there were no weapons, we can rule out hunting. Same with fishing if there were no poles missing. Spotting is possible. I grew up in a hunting area in west central PA. Hunters would go out weeks before the start of the season and try to "spot" deer; they'd see the number and what their patterns of movement would be. If the Jamisons were hunters, that would be a possibility.

I could see a situation where they were out of their vehicle and some, potentially dangerous wildlife got between them and the vehicle. The moved in the other direction, and got lost. I don't know what the fauna is like, but a bear, big cat, boar, or even a skunk, could have caused then to move away from the vehicle.

 

[Jdee]

Im not a big poster here but wanted to add something... I have been lost in the woods before with another person. It was during the day and it was warm but we were not dressed for the night. For us our main thought was to keep moving and try to find something.. anything.. to give us direction. When you are lost in the woods everything looks the same and it is so easy to get turned around in a second. You think it would be easy to find your way back but its not. We tried everything even to trying to position the sun for direction. We could see nothing but trees and woods. My biggest fear was it getting dark and having to spend the night out there. If the Jamison's got lost I think they would keep moving no matter what.. but if it got dark then you don't wonder around in the pitch black. You find a spot and sit and wait it out. At night in the woods you can't see a thing! It would be too dangerous, especially with a child to keep moving in the dark. I think they were found together because it got dark and they sat down together and then the elements took over. No clothing or little clothing could happen over time because of the elements or animals.
Those are just my thoughts from experiencing being lost in woods.

And thankfully we did eventually come upon an old logging trail and followed it for miles until we found a paved road.. and then hitch hiked out! We found out later we were only 5 miles from our home. Woods are woods.. you can vanish in an instant in woods.

 

[OkieGranny]

Topographical views based on GPS coordinates. This is not exact, as it puts Point B on a road a little bit to the south-southwest of where the truck was found, but gives a sense of the terrain between the two areas:

Zooming on on the general location of the remains:

What strikes me is that there's really no smooth downward slope from the crest of the hill to Point A. Lots of ups and downs. It's always easier walking downhill than up, but it would only have been short hike up to the crest of the hill from where the truck was parked. I can tell you from experience that it can be dark as night in the middle of the day during a thunderstorm, so if the family was out walking while the day was still warm, then bad weather moved in, visibility was poor, trying to move back downhill toward the truck but in the wrong direction, cold, wet, huddled together for warmth, unable to light a fire in the pouring rain, yeah, I could see it. They may not have survived that first night.

 

[dreamweaver]

It seems far too much of a coincidence for both the McStays and the Jamisons to be found in the same week. So strange! I'm in shock, I think.

This was my exact thought when I came to post this morning. I worked on both cases in the early couple of years. Now, both families are found.

I consider it to be a blessing, for their families, for law enforcement and
for all of us at Websleuths.