The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 24th June - Trial Day 9, Week 3

[LadyBird1]

And the drag marks are???? Those leaves on the patio look pretty undisturbed and random to me. And wouldn't it be obvious if it was through the wet grass? That would be hard to cover up I would have thought.

Lychee, your point being .....?

 

[FirstTimer]

Where did all the money go? Over $300,000 from friends, and then hits up Flegg for another $400,000. Bloody hell. Or did his learning's at Flight Centre prepare him for a life in real estate stealing money from there too.

Not a very clever chappy is he?

 

[lycheefarmer]

Lychee, your point being .....?

<modsnip>How did a body get dragged accumulating 6 species of plant life from the patio or surrounds and not create a drag mark? If on the patio it would have resulted in a trail where there were no undisturbed leaves that had come off the trees. If through the longish grass there would have been a crushed trail I would have thought. Just my 20c worth!

 

[LadyBird1]

A basic summary & a little exercise. Try pretending you're one of the jurors & you know nothing or very little about the murder of Allison....

Prosecutor begins the trial with description of the case...

A mother of three is murdered, found dumped in the mud below a bridge 14kms from her home. Her husband was the last person to see her alive. This murder is said to have taken place at the house which they shared. The husband is also charged with interfering with a body.

Testimony to date from numerous doctors/experts show she wasn't depressed, she wasn't suicidal. She was taking care of herself, her appearance, had a new hairdo & was looking forward to attending a conference.

Testimony from a mistress of the husband states they had an ongoing affair spanning many years & he'd promised to be with her by July 1st.....all unbeknown to the wife.

Testimony to date from numerous doctors/experts show the scratches on the husband's body aren't from a shaver & are more than likely fingernail scratches.

Testimony from close friends of the husband testify their friend was having extremely serious financial problems. Dodgy deals were made in an attempt to rectify those problems. Those deals failed & he was left owing a lot of money to numerous people.

Testimony from leaf/tree expert states the leaves/leaf litter found in the woman's hair are consistent with the plant matter found in back patio & carport areas of the home the husband & wife shared. Certain pieces of this leaf matter suggest she'd been dragged along.

Some leaf matter was mentioned as being found only at Kholo. Some leaf matter was found in the Captiva.

Will any of that leaf matter from Kholo match with the leaf matter found in Captiva??

To be continued tomorrow

Plus the wife's life insurance was due to be paid, but wasn't paid (possibly due to insufficient funds= No money.)

 

[minusfour]

Well the big problem was that GBC had NO funds left to invest in his own business and the banks etc would not extend him any more credit. Without knowing exactly what was happening in his business, I think I can see where a few things may have gone wrong. If you have a few good years you might want to expand your business & improve your infrastructure as I have done over the past few years. It is a well thought out process. You look at the possible risks (drought, floods, new competitors etc) and you look at the benefits. There is always a risk in business that you could "lose it all" due to factors beyond your control. BUT a sudden expansion to much larger premises including a huge rent increase and a sudden intake of new staff is very high risk IMO. Better to do things slowly. Managing and owning a business is like having a whole other family to nurture and care for. Part of the problem of course was that apart from the business he also had a mistress. With a wife and a young family it doesn't leave much time to focus on your business, and in my experience, if you want to be a successful business owner you need to be focused 24/7.

I'm a business owner too, and have been puzzled by the gigantic failure of this business- wasn't 2010 meant to have been a really successful year sales wise. (According to partners statements) And this was things really looked terrible.
I reckon GBC got bored. He wasn't selling houses, he wasn't managing the business, he wasn't staying home and being a good father or husband. He infected his business, and his family, with not one, but at least three affairs. At work he was described as lazy by one of the partners, hiring people to do work which he should have been doing. I reckon he was bored, bored, bored- a low boredom threshold is one of the characteristics of sociopathy- honestly, I just don't think he could make himself go through the boring old motions that we all have to face pretty much everyday. He sought diversions- affairs, new offices- recklessly. He let his partners down dreadfully, and I bet he did the same to clients, never bothering to go the extra mile, do what he had said he would do, never taking responsibility.
Bored by a normal life.
Poor Allison and girls, a totally inadequate man in their family

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

I am sure there was a little glitch in there and Gerard or his team have put "spin" on it

I recall reading that Gered was sacked by Flight Centres and then he tried unsuccessfully to get them for unfair dismissal.

 

[FirstTimer]

<modsnip> How did a body get dragged accumulating 6 species of plant life from the patio or surrounds and not create a drag mark? If on the patio it would have resulted in a trail where there were no undisturbed leaves that had come off the trees. If through the longish grass there would have been a crushed trail I would have thought. Just my 20c worth!

Because he wasn't alone. No drag marks when two people carry a body.

 

[Neuromancer]

I have feeling that Gerard didn't ask many people back to his house. It was actually a fairly basic house and rented, I think he put in out that he lived at Brookfield (on 10 acres, swimming pool, room for a pony), made it sound a lot better than it was but then used Allison's depression for not being able to ask people to the house socially. In one of the partners statements ? Phil Broom? says something along the lines of "Gerard could never ask people back to his place or take Allison anywhere because of her depression". It really annoys me how her depression is being emphasised and blamed for everything.

Good point

Also in one of the partners statements they said Gerard had to resign from Flight Centre because of her depression. Didn't we discuss ages ago that Allison actually had the more senior job, Gerard did something wrong and was asked to leave so Allison felt she had to resign as the right thing to do?

Yes - he sued Flight Centre for wrongful dismissal (I don't think it's in the docs here but google baden-clay vs flight centre and you should find it). I forget the details but he hadn't actually completed some qualification that was required for the job or something like that

Addit - adding link cos it was impossible to google with all the current stuff up there
- it's the oldest (2000) on this page http://apps.courts.qld.gov.au/esearching/Results.aspx?Lastcompanyname=baden-clay

 

[alioop]

Thank you alioop,

Can you tell me why the prosecution don't go back to the witness after the defence have cross examined? Maybe they are sometimes and I'm missing that as following trial by tweets. I just feel they often leave the defence with the last point made and then the witness is dismissed.

Also, will there be transcripts of the testimony for us to read as the trial unfolds?
Thank you!! I'm looking forward to reading any extra information from your visit to court today.

Yes sometimes the prosecution does ask questions in re examination. Transcripts are usually available but you have to buy them and they are not cheap.

 

[FigTree]

Just caught up - phew - thankyou to all the posters today, especially those keeping on top of the tweets, and to those posts that made me laugh out loud - the thought provoking, the expressive and emotional posts - today was a big day, and the ending of the days evidence being left on a cliff hanger like that... tomorrow will be interesting.

I am feeling a little more optimistic now...
It seems the defense are trying to cover the very obvious bases - but I think the Crown is allowing them to do that because the Crown has something up their sleeve.
No doubt the Defense are taking a crash course in garden foliage tonight so as to be prepared for tomorrow.

Just wanted to cover some bases with some past posts on the thread -
Makara post 638

The main thing that stood out for me from the Christ, Cheeseman and Cranna testimonies today is that the money loaned to GBC was deposited into the joint business account of GBC AND Allison. They being the owners of the company. So if GBC is convicted and has no way of paying back those loans, they will sue Allison's estate to recoup their money, plus interest. Or have I got that wrong? I just felt that those three were saying 'nice' things about Allison on the one hand, but on the other they had this agenda, a subtle hint that they know there is money held in trust and one way or another they will get their hands on it.
Wonder if they declared the interest that GBC had paid them to the ATO.

Any losses they encounter can be written off - may even be to their advantage.
Though, not to have a written agreement tells me there was more going on, and something is wrong within the testament of the 3 lender/partners.
----

And the plant material -
There are more than 200 varieties of List of Melaleuca species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

[LadyBird1]

<modsnip> How did a body get dragged accumulating 6 species of plant life from the patio or surrounds and not create a drag mark? If on the patio it would have resulted in a trail where there were no undisturbed leaves that had come off the trees. If through the longish grass there would have been a crushed trail I would have thought. Just my 20c worth!

Perhaps Lychee, <modsnip> How did a body get dragged accumulating 6 Species of plant matter from the patio etc and not create a drag mark?
The point is that:
6 species of plant species from the patio etc were found in her hair.
How did that occur?
Don't know, but it did occur. That is a fact.
There were no drag marks? I am not a Boy Scout, just a scrubber from the bush. Scouts might be able to answer that better. Isn't that what Scouts are trained about?

 

[Snails]

I'm a business owner too, and have been puzzled by the gigantic failure of this business- wasn't 2010 meant to have been a really successful year sales wise. (According to partners statements) And this was things really looked terrible.

I reckon GBC got bored. He wasn't selling houses, he wasn't managing the business, he wasn't staying home and being a good father or husband. He infected his business, and his family, with not one, but at least three affairs. At work he was described as lazy by one of the partners, hiring people to do work which he should have been doing. I reckon he was bored, bored, bored- a low boredom threshold is one of the characteristics of sociopathy- honestly, I just don't think he could make himself go through the boring old motions that we all have to face pretty much everyday. He sought diversions- affairs, new offices- recklessly. He let his partners down dreadfully, and I bet he did the same to clients, never bothering to go the extra mile, do what he had said he would do, never taking responsibility.

Bored by a normal life.

Poor Allison and girls, a totally inadequate man in their family

He was so busy "chasing his tail" whether it be chasing funds/chasing his mistress/girlfriends etc it does not bade well for a successful business owner/manager/partner/husband/father and I could go on & on. It takes a lot of energy to manage a business, but his energy was being spent elsewhere. So sad on so many levels.

 

[they'll get you]

And the drag marks are???? Those leaves on the patio look pretty undisturbed and random to me. And wouldn't it be obvious if it was through the wet grass? That would be hard to cover up I would have thought.

<modsnip>I found myself zooming in on the outside pavers, broken fronds and flattened shrubs to see if I could see anything.

I also zoomed in on <modsnip> hair to see if Allison might have left wet nail polish in his hair.

Justice and truth.

 

[lycheefarmer]

Because he wasn't alone. No drag marks when two people carry a body.

Sorry to seem dim but surely if two people were carrying the body you wouldn't accumulate the plant matter or at the very least you wouldn't brush past 6 species.

 

[Freya1977]

I agree, plant matter could have easily been on a passengers feet

I'm hoping it's a different species and links to Kholo Creek

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

 

[Trooper]

Sorry to seem dim but surely if two people were carrying the body you wouldn't accumulate the plant matter or at the very least you wouldn't brush past 6 species.

I have been remiss lately , I admit it, to counting the species I brush past.. sheer laziness, I know.. I 've been distracted.

 

[Neuromancer]

<modsnip> How did a body get dragged accumulating 6 species of plant life from the patio or surrounds and not create a drag mark? If on the patio it would have resulted in a trail where there were no undisturbed leaves that had come off the trees. If through the longish grass there would have been a crushed trail I would have thought. Just my 20c worth!

Just my opinion but I don't think she was dragged. She was light enough for a 6" man to carry - esp with adrenaline running thru his system (adrenaline makes you a lot stronger).

In my mind there was a fight that spilled out onto the back patio (maybe arguing outside to not wake the kids, or she's running off to get away from him, maybe he got that hand cut from trying to grab her car keys out of her hand), and some physical altercation happened. She ended up on the ground, head/hair being pressed into the leaves (leaves were so entangled in the hair they had to be cut out) while being strangled with her jumper.

 

[Bazinga]

As a lighthearted aside... beginning to think this trial has been brought to us by the letter C as well as the number 12. (Which in itself is an anagram of C21 - Century 21).

Cats Claw Creeper
Chinese Elm
Chamber of Commerce
Carport
Captiva
Cheesman
Christ
Cranna

Adding the suggestions from other posters
Crepe myrtle
Caterpillar

I'll add
Creek

<modsnip>

 

[kwash]

In post 640 on this thread there is a picture of the crashed car and GBC walking with a bag strap over his shoulder. It appears the bag is either a backpack (with only one shoulder strap in use) or a cross-body bag (like a gym bag or a soft sided briefcase) worn over the shoulder instead of across the body. I was thinking this type of strap could cause the neck and chest 'injuries' seen on GBC. Perhaps he tried to leave the house and ABC grabbed at the bag to hold him back (e.g. they were in the middle of an argument and he tried to leave with her trying to stop him). This could have escalated into a physical altercation resulting in her murder.

Also, someone mentioned money laundering. I believe there are laws setting thresholds for reporting transactions/transfers of funds above a certain amount. Perhaps the threshold in Australia is over $90,000?

 

[LadyBird1]

Just my opinion but I don't think she was dragged. She was light enough for a 6" man to carry - esp with adrenaline running thru his system (adrenaline makes you a lot stronger).

In my mind there was a fight that spilled out onto the back patio (maybe arguing outside to not wake the kids, or she's running off to get away from him, maybe he got that hand cut from trying to grab her car keys out of her hand), and some physical altercation happened. She ended up on the ground, head/hair being pressed into the leaves (leaves were so entangled in the hair they had to be cut out) while being strangled with her jumper.

If someone was having a humdinger of an argument, and that someone thought their life was in danger, I very much doubt they would be concerned about disturbing the kids. Just saying.
And Saying a bit more, more likely that same someone might try and scream out at top throttle, hoping that someone, anyone might hear her plight. "Help! Someone, Please HELP me!"