Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[CP345]

The chem lab was mentioned because that is where the missing VS commodore fibres were found when they moved buildings. They had been sent there by mistake and lost according to police.


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Which worries me a little. If this is a key piece of evidence I'm not sure how police can say they're certain it remained untouched if they didn't know of its whereabouts for so long.

 

[mandy.maree]

Which worries me a little. If this is a key piece of evidence I'm not sure how police can say they're certain it remained untouched if they didn't know of its whereabouts for so long.

Well I doubt that would be there only evidence.
I wouldn't trust they have the right man from evidence that they lost track of for many years

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[CP345]

Well I doubt that would be there only evidence.
I wouldn't trust they have the right man from evidence that they lost track of for many years

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Yes, I'm sure they have plenty more. I do think the defence will be all over this particular piece it if this was indeed lost though.

 

[Owlie]

Hi trueblue - i think they had to say something when the arrest was made to settle some of the fear that has always been bubbling under the surface after it was publicly stated many times and over many years that a sk was in the community.

What better way to calm fears and pressures from the govt, media and community then to publicly state that there was conclusive proof through DNA (and other evidence) that had led them to the alleged csk.

Now it is a matter of the police locking down further information to continue to build their case and rule out any other crimes that may or may not be related.

Whatever the reason - the murder of CG and JR has never been far from people's mind, nor has the KK rape (which was also linked).

Now the thing that is concerning people is what has happened to and where is SS and if the police have to keep investigation details private to bring her home and provide closure to her family and friends, unfortunately that is the way things have to be.

All of the above is my opinion.

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Great post!


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[CSK?]

What exactly was lost, just the JR Commodore fibers right? or did they lose DNA evidence also? from my understanding there has never been a mention of the kimono being lost, only that it was in storage and unchecked, and KK and CG evidence hasn't been mentioned as being lost so I'm assuming the DNA evidence still remains in good standing and the only questionable piece would be the fibers which Macro managed to lose on 2 occasions.

I highly doubt that BRE had any inclination that he was a suspect and with confirmed linked killings of the CSK having stopped in 1997 there was no reason for Macro to act post haste, and unprepared in arresting the accused. I speculate that they had already begun building a case prior to the arrest and that DNA was just icing on the cake, everything since is formality. As bad of a reputation as WAPOL might have I can't see them bungling such a public case as the Claremont Serial Killer, there is just way too much at stake.

 

[WhyWhy]

It's taken a while to catch up, I'd not noticed #12 was opened. Some great sleuthing here, since.
Gajafar - can confirm that BE is not an Orienteer in WA (at least not last ten years) IMO
Spinnaker - while Lake Claremont is close to the drive-in site, doesn't it completely dry up in dry summers? Often only 200mm deep in parts. Also too many dogs for any such site to remain unbarked at IMO
Spooks, GreenC and SilverTongue - IMO the KK cemetery is a highly likely location. It's not hard to navigate if you pay attention to the contours and trees of surrounding roads. I ride through often (v fast!) and any (noticeable) cctv is on the parking area. Recent gates Smyth and Broome, no gate Railway and old gate Government. But IMO no gates in late 1990s. Close to 1k from centre to any adjacent house, it seriously is a 'dead centre'.

 

[mandy.maree]

What exactly was lost, just the JR Commodore fibers right? or did they lose DNA evidence also? from my understanding there has never been a mention of the kimono being lost, only that it was in storage and unchecked, and KK and CG evidence hasn't been mentioned as being lost so I'm assuming the DNA evidence still remains in good standing and the only questionable piece would be the fibers which Macro managed to lose on 2 occasions.

I highly doubt that BRE had any inclination that he was a suspect and with confirmed linked killings of the CSK having stopped in 1997 there was no reason for Macro to act post haste and unprepared in arresting the accused. I speculate that they had already begun building a case prior to the arrest and that DNA was just icing on the cake, everything since is formality. As bad of a reputation as WAPOL might have I can't see them bungling such a public case as the Claremont Serial Killer, there is just way too much at stake.

Exactly.
Yes far as I am aware -only the car fibres were missing (and at another police stations storage I believe)
The dna was always there-just couldn't be tested until the recent technology advances (which are helping solve many other cases currently ).
They did not have BREs dna until they took it after arrest so cant have "accidentally " contaminated


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[Owlie]

The alleged CSK BRE has been officially charged with wilfull murder (same as murder 1 in USA I think) now so the WAPOL case is now subjudice because the legal process has started so they can't publicise any evidence they do or don't have against him. Everything will come out in the trial. No one else has ever been charged in this case so the rules of the court haven't applied to any previous POIs. IMO this bagging of WAPOL and evidence released is trying to derail the thread not others who are discussing methods, locations, etc. That said you have the right to your opinions as do I and none of us deserve to be abused for them.


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[apoptosisfutz]

This is going off topic I was just trying to show one method of finding a pre planned destination I have often wondered if there were markers in Wellard. I have a feeling that Sarah is there and Ciera was taken to Pipininny because Jane had been found. I don't want to talk about that particular case but there was a mosaic playground nearby rumoured to be the site when in fact the site was well into the trees. A useful book about Satanists and Witchcraft in Australia and Perth is Other Temples Other Gods it mentions the girl found murdered in the area in 1980 and the fact that she was being initiated into a coven.

Kerryn Tate....another 'forgotten' murder victim...

link: missingandmurderedaustralia.blogspot.com.au/1979/12/kerryn-tate.html

 

[JoWa]

Which worries me a little. If this is a key piece of evidence I'm not sure how police can say they're certain it remained untouched if they didn't know of its whereabouts for so long.

I imagine it was filed away and remained sealed in an evidence bag. It is a little dodgy but as it's not the only link to the car as they have witness statements too, and things we probably aren't aware of, I'm assuming it won't matter.


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[Nugget77]

What exactly was lost, just the JR Commodore fibers right? or did they lose DNA evidence also? from my understanding there has never been a mention of the kimono being lost, only that it was in storage and unchecked, and KK and CG evidence hasn't been mentioned as being lost so I'm assuming the DNA evidence still remains in good standing and the only questionable piece would be the fibers which Macro managed to lose on 2 occasions.

I highly doubt that BRE had any inclination that he was a suspect and with confirmed linked killings of the CSK having stopped in 1997 there was no reason for Macro to act post haste, and unprepared in arresting the accused. I speculate that they had already begun building a case prior to the arrest and that DNA was just icing on the cake, everything since is formality. As bad of a reputation as WAPOL might have I can't see them bungling such a public case as the Claremont Serial Killer, there is just way too much at stake.

Now this is completely speculation on my part but I respect your opinion and the way you present your thoughts on here. With regards to the timing of BRE's arrest. In the context of the suddeness (from our point of view), the use of force, the breakdown of his relationship with CG (and possibly the reccurrence of the conditions that MAY have caused him to offend in the mid/late 90's), what do you think about the possibility that he may have been in the process of stalking, prowling, preparing to re-commence his criminal activities?

I say this in the context that BTK was apparently stalking another victim when he was arrested (and had in fact been disturbed while waiting in her house).

I understand that it's more likely that they police just had enough evidence to arrest him at the time and that's why. However there may have been a different trigger as to why they chose to arrest him at the time and in the manner they did.

 

[Observe&Report]

This is in regards to claims that DNA evidence could be planted or falsified.

Planting evidence in one crime scene in this day and age is hard, It can be done and does continue to happen but planting evidence across multiple crime scenes makes things even harder. When collecting or accessing evidence there is a chain of command. A police officer, detective or forensic expert must sign for the evidence on both check out and check in of storage. If someone were to plant DNA in the evidence files for the Huntingdale attack, Karakatta rape kit and Ciara Glennon murder there would be a paper trail as clear as day. It is not an impossible probability of this happening but the chances are that slim that I would personally consider it to be non existent. Evidence is preserved in the condition they were received in. they are kept in a security sealed evidence bag that cannot be interfered with. Outside of LE experts might have access to the evidence but the require an expert certificate and also must follow the same procedures put in place for LE. Planting evidence is most likely to occur at the time of evidence collection (accounting for 89.2% of proven evidence tampering cases) I just find it inconceivable that police would have planted DNA evidence for one Bradley Robert Edwards at the time of collection with a cunning master plan of making the link some 20 years later.

DNA evidence alone will not convict criminals so even if the jury is presented with the slightest hint of doubt police will introduce evidence of the crime, character, reputation or conduct of the defendant, or evidence of a tendency the defendant has or had in order to make their case. The DNA evidence, considered with all the other evidence in the case, is likely to show there is no other reasonable explanation other than the defendant's guilt but it will not be the sole evidence for making the case against Bradley Edwards.

 

[lampformypath]

Now this is completely speculation on my part but I respect your opinion and the way you present your thoughts on here. With regards to the timing of BRE's arrest. In the context of the suddeness (from our point of view), the use of force, the breakdown of his relationship with CG (and possibly the reccurrence of the conditions that MAY have caused him to offend in the mid/late 90's), what do you think about the possibility that he may have been in the process of stalking, prowling, preparing to re-commence his criminal activities?

I say this in the context that BTK was apparently stalking another victim when he was arrested (and had in fact been disturbed while waiting in her house).

I understand that it's more likely that they police just had enough evidence to arrest him at the time and that's why. However there may have been a different trigger as to why they chose to arrest him at the time and in the manner they did.

Hmmm... maybe planning something on the Christmas holidays, lots of single women going out to parties and events? Like you say, only just speculation and opinion, but maybe he was being covertly (rather than the dreaded LW overtly/covertly/dreadfully!) followed and had already picked another victim and started stalking and following her? I thought the TRG response was very telling, as I said in previous post, that he was perceived as a "threat" to the public at exactly that time, and that justified the military style arrest.

 

[CSK?]

Now this is completely speculation on my part but I respect your opinion and the way you present your thoughts on here. With regards to the timing of BRE's arrest. In the context of the suddeness (from our point of view), the use of force, the breakdown of his relationship with CG (and possibly the reccurrence of the conditions that MAY have caused him to offend in the mid/late 90's), what do you think about the possibility that he may have been in the process of stalking, prowling, preparing to re-commence his criminal activities?

I say this in the context that BTK was apparently stalking another victim when he was arrested (and had in fact been disturbed while waiting in her house).

I understand that it's more likely that they police just had enough evidence to arrest him at the time and that's why. However there may have been a different trigger as to why they chose to arrest him at the time and in the manner they did.

well in all honesty, do we really know that he ever stopped? All that we know is that the killings in the Claremont geographical location stopped, coincidently LW become a suspect around the same time so did the CSK find himself a perfect scapegoat with the ability to evolve his MO and hunting ground and evade further links of him to the CSK case?


I have also put thought into the possibility of him gearing up to strike again, the timing of the break down of relationships in the past to that of known attacks makes for a good fit to theorize this and like you pointed out, the BTK case was also something I considered when making this conclusion.


So you're right in speculating this could be a reason for police to act as they did. As for the manner of arresting I personally think they just didn't want to take chances, without searching the house they had no idea if BRE had weapons or not, all they knew is that they were dealing with an accused violent offender who may have murdered at least 3 women in cold blood. I'm sure they would have scouted him out before hand and realizing that VG was living with him might have also wanted to prevent a panicked BRE from taking a hostage. This is all ofcourse just an opinion, but based off of logical reasoning.

 

[Humanoid1987]

If KK was the location of his actions against his victims then maybe SS was placed in a grave that was to be used the next day. Place the victim in the grave and fill in a false floor so that the next day a casket put in said grave.

If that's the case then WAPOL would need to find out the burials that happened the day after.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

This is in regards to claims that DNA evidence could be planted or falsified.

Planting evidence in one crime scene in this day and age is hard, It can be done and does continue to happen but planting evidence across multiple crime scenes makes things even harder. When collecting or accessing evidence there is a chain of command. A police officer, detective or forensic expert must sign for the evidence on both check out and check in of storage. If someone were to plant DNA in the evidence files for the Huntingdale attack, Karakatta rape kit and Ciara Glennon murder there would be a paper trail as clear as day. It is not an impossible probability of this happening but the chances are that slim that I would personally consider it to be non existent. Evidence is preserved in the condition they were received in. they are kept in a security sealed evidence bag that cannot be interfered with. Outside of LE experts might have access to the evidence but the require an expert certificate and also must follow the same procedures put in place for LE. Planting evidence is most likely to occur at the time of evidence collection (accounting for 89.2% of proven evidence tampering cases) I just find it inconceivable that police would have planted DNA evidence for one Bradley Robert Edwards at the time of collection with a cunning master plan of making the link some 20 years later.

DNA evidence alone will not convict criminals so even if the jury is presented with the slightest hint of doubt police will introduce evidence of the crime, character, reputation or conduct of the defendant, or evidence of a tendency the defendant has or had in order to make their case. The DNA evidence, considered with all the other evidence in the case, is likely to show there is no other reasonable explanation other than the defendant's guilt but it will not be the sole evidence for making the case against Bradley Edwards.

Thank you...Well I guess that ends that side of the debate then.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

IF police planted the DNA, there is only ONE crime scene...and that is in the lab! If police hadn't planted the seed pods in the Lloyd Rayney case, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

This is true, so disappointing!

 

[Nugget77]

well in all honesty, do we really know that he ever stopped? All that we know is that the killings in the Claremont geographical location stopped, coincidently LW become a suspect around the same time so did the CSK find himself a perfect scapegoat with the ability to evolve his MO and hunting ground and evade further links of him to the CSK case?


I have also put thought into the possibility of him gearing up to strike again, the timing of the break down of relationships in the past to that of known attacks makes for a good fit to theorize this and like you pointed out, the BTK case was also something I considered when making this conclusion.


So you're right in speculating this could be a reason for police to act as they did. As for the manner of arresting I personally think they just didn't want to take chances, without searching the house they had no idea if BRE had weapons or not, all they knew is that they were dealing with an accused violent offender who may have murdered at least 3 women in cold blood. I'm sure they would have scouted him out before hand and realizing that VG was living with him might have also wanted to prevent a panicked BRE from taking a hostage. This is all ofcourse just an opinion, but based off of logical reasoning.

Firstly, thanks for the response.

I agree. I'm not sure he stopped. Some part of me thinks he may have although the odds would say not. That's a really interesting point.

I also agree that the most likely explanation for the TRG etc is as you've desribed.

I think overall the most likely conclusion is that they struck when they had enough evidence for an arrest and did so in the manner they did to ensure safety of the arresting officers and possibly anyone else in the building.

There are a couple of nagging things for me about this case and really they're all just personal hunches;

1. The possibility that he could have been gearing up for another attempt at murder. Regardless of whether he stopped or not post Ciara Glennon, it's all about when he came on the police radar. If they'd been surveilling him and noticed he was gearing up for another go, then that is the right time to strike and arrest him. There is nothing to support this aside from perhaps the fact that his relationship was over and it appears that this may have been a trigger in the past (if certain speculated timelines are correct).

2. The TRG involvement. I've always suspected blitz attack. And for that to happen I think it had to be very heavy. What I think is that it had to be so overwhelming to the victim that they weren't able to get away or call for help or run. I think a weapon like a gun may have been used. If police suspected that too, then perhaps they went in so heavily. I do however think it's most likely the police just did what they thought was best.

3. Karakatta Cemetry. I think there's been some good speculation on Karakatta of late and definitely think it's a really significant location for most if not all of the offences. For what it's worth, I think people on here are on the right track in terms of it being a location for the murders.

 

[SherlockSleuth]

IMO the Police used the TRG to make the arrest from a PR POV. I think it instills confidence in the general public. Police had already lost a lot of brownie points in this case. No need to pussy foot around once they had their man. But that's not to say the other reasons put forward on here aren't correct.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

RSBM

Firstly, thanks for the response.

There are a couple of nagging things for me about this case and really they're all just personal hunches;

1. The possibility that he could have been gearing up for another attempt at murder. Regardless of whether he stopped or not post Ciara Glennon, it's all about when he came on the police radar. If they'd been surveilling him and noticed he was gearing up for another go, then that is the right time to strike and arrest him. There is nothing to support this aside from perhaps the fact that his relationship was over and it appears that this may have been a trigger in the past (if certain speculated timelines are correct).
[/B]

We could also look at it from another angle, what if BRE was 'courting' someone in rl or using an online dating service? Could be completely innocent or as you've suggested, gearing up for an assault/murder.