OH - Pike County: 8 People From One Family Dead As Police Hunt For Killer(s) #34 *Arrests*

[pepper 34]

Factors and processes causing accelerated decomposition in human cadavers - An overview. - PubMed - NCBI

Factors and processes causing accelerated decomposition:
(just something that should be considered)

"Artefactually enhanced putrefactive and autolytic changes may be misinterpreted as indicating a prolonged postmortem interval and throw doubt on the veracity of witness statements. Review of files from Forensic Science SA and the literature revealed a number of external and internal factors that may be responsible for accelerating these processes. Exogenous factors included exposure to elevated environmental temperatures, both outdoors and indoors, exacerbated by increased humidity or fires. Situations indoor involved exposure to central heating, hot water, saunas and electric blankets. Deaths within motor vehicles were also characterized by enhanced decomposition. Failure to quickly or adequately refrigerate bodies may also lead to early decomposition. *Endogenous factors included fever, infections, illicit and prescription drugs, obesity and insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.* When these factors or conditions are identified at autopsy less significance should, therefore, be attached to changes of decomposition as markers of time since death."
*added by me

 

[Soulmagent]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CSr might have invited the people inside and put the dogs out on his own (gladly, for "visitors" or upon order from killers.) FR's dogs, across the way, might not have customarily barked when people arrived at CS's house. The dogs might have known the people who arrived, too. Maybe FR's dogs barking are what kept FR and HG from hearing someone enter their house and those who entered could get all the way to the bedroom without being discovered due to the barking. I agree with you that 2 people were in that house and probably on both sides of bed. I am wondering about something... HG was shot 5 times with one "odd" shot to the left eye and DR was shot 5 times with one "odd" shot under the chin. I'm wondering if the same person didn't shoot both of them.
PS... I've read over my long, rambling comment above and would change some things. Beginning to agree with those who said CSr put up a much bigger fight than I stated above. Also, do you recall that a window down the end of CSr's house was open with the curtain hanging out the window? I'm thinking, in a panic CSr attempted to escape out that way during his terrible ordeal. On that horrible note I have to give this a break because it's just too upsetting and sad to even think about sometimes.

If one had been shot in the ear ,I would say it sends a hear no evil, see no evil speak ,no evil, message to shootings.

 

[Merrygirl]

Kind of gross but this tells the stages of decomposition:
http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf

I’m not sure if this has any bearings on our best guess of tod but I think there are a number of factors to consider. According to the autopsy reports (see link below) CRsr was shot 9 times in the torso, extremities and head. The coroner states the autopsy began around 2pm on Sunday Apr 24 while most of the others were completed on Saturday and the early part of Sun morning, which means he was one of the last to be autopsied. I do know that decomp begins once the blood flow ceases but it starts in the internal organs first and it usually isn’t visible to the naked eye for many many hours later unless there is a direct path to air and a food source. I would venture a guess that the fact he was shot 9 times and probably had exit wounds from some of those shots his body was more exposed to the bacteria and air mixture that supports decomp. There is also the matter of what the room temperatures were in each of the homes as well as the order in which the bodies were transported to the morgue and cleaned before they were stored in the cooler. The cooler will not stop the decomp, it only slows it down so if his body was exposed to warmer air for several hours prior to being transported this would be like a feast for the bacteria. I’m not convinced we can adequately venture a guess that his tod was much earlier than the others, except maybe KR’s tod. This is just my opinion but I’m sticking to it until we have something more concrete.
Final autopsy report

 

[Dudly]

I’m not sure if this has any bearings on our best guess of tod but I think there are a number of factors to consider. According to the autopsy reports (see link below) CRsr was shot 9 times in the torso, extremities and head. The coroner states the autopsy began around 2pm on Sunday Apr 24 while most of the others were completed on Saturday and the early part of Sun morning, which means he was one of the last to be autopsied. I do know that decomp begins once the blood flow ceases but it starts in the internal organs first and it usually isn’t visible to the naked eye for many many hours later unless there is a direct path to air and a food source. I would venture a guess that the fact he was shot 9 times and probably had exit wounds from some of those shots his body was more exposed to the bacteria and air mixture that supports decomp. There is also the matter of what the room temperatures were in each of the homes as well as the order in which the bodies were transported to the morgue and cleaned before they were stored in the cooler. The cooler will not stop the decomp, it only slows it down so if his body was exposed to warmer air for several hours prior to being transported this would be like a feast for the bacteria. I’m not convinced we can adequately venture a guess that his tod was much earlier than the others, except maybe KR’s tod. This is just my opinion but I’m sticking to it until we have something more concrete.
Final autopsy report

I would think that the coroner would know to take all these factors into consideration. Room temperatures and core body temperatures are taken at the scene. The coroner would know if the room temperature affected the body temperature and decomposition. I think it had to be a significant difference to be noted in the autopsy.

 

[ilovepierre]

TOD would be nice to know.
I doubt we will ever get that info, though...
IMO

 

[Dudly]

TOD would be nice to know.
I doubt we will ever get that info, though...
IMO

That could make major changes in the thoughts of what happened when. Especially with the coroner saying CRsr died first.

 

[Betty P]

I would think that the coroner would know to take all these factors into consideration. Room temperatures and core body temperatures are taken at the scene. The coroner would know if the room temperature affected the body temperature and decomposition. I think it had to be a significant difference to be noted in the autopsy.

Yes, the coroner in this case is a physician and he likely would have noted if there were any extenuating circumstances at the scene. For now, we should take him at his word.

 

[chigger]

That autopsy report is for CR junior.

 

[ilovepierre]

That autopsy report is for CR junior.

It's for all of them.
Keep scrolling down and you'll see the rest.

 

[Betty P]

It's for all of them.
Keep scrolling down and you'll see the rest.

Yes, those are the final autopsy reports, conducted by the Hamilton County, OH medical examiner. The reports that were released for viewing by the news media this week and that we're discussing here, were the preliminary autopsy reports. Those were conducted and submitted by the Pike County Coroner, Dr David Kessler, at the crime scenes. Dr. Kessler's preliminary ARs, investigatory notes and some photos were released for viewing by the news media.

Just wanted to make that clarification again, so people don't get confused.

Link to the Ohio Supreme Court decision

https://supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/0/2018/2018-ohio-3721.pdf

 

[rsd1200]

Kind of gross but this tells the stages of decomposition:
http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf

Thanks Dudly! I've been doing some reading on decomp too.

At the time that the bodies were found, I'd guess that the coroner noted CR1's more advanced stage of decomp. Between lividity and rigor, they could probably tell that he'd been killed before the others.

My guess is that all bodies were in, what is called, the "Fresh" stage. The Fresh Stage, lasts 1-2 days. During that time of decomp, a lot of things happen, most internal from what I gather, except rigor and lividity. Lividity begins to work through the deceased within thirty minutes of their heart stopping and can last up to twelve hours. It may show as a dark purple coloring. Only up to the first six hours of death can lividity be altered by moving the body. After the six hour mark lividity is fixed. Livor mortis (lividity) is usually most pronounced eight to twelve hours after death.

Rigor begins throughout the body, but, normally appears to us, within two hours, in the the facial and upper neck and shoulder muscles. The deceased's face might take on what looks to be a grimace; this is because the facial muscles have contracted. Once the muscles have all contracted (8-12 hours depending on certain facotrs), the body will remain in rigor for up to 18 hours, after which, it will return to pre-Rigor condition. Putrefaction will start, and then the next stage, Bloat.

The next stage, Bloat, has a range of 2-6 days. I don't believe CR1 was that far advanced.

I believe CR1 had a more advanced state of Rigor. A couple hours. Maybe, BJM found them, much sooner after they were killed, than we think that she did. Instead of after 1 a.m., it may have been closer to the 3-5 a.m. mark. that they were murdered. IIRC Mittens mentioned that KR would come to the trailer to shower, maybe that's the only reason he died, to give them more time before the bodies were found. It seemed they tried to hamper BJM finding them so soon.

Links used to summarize the above.
Decomposition – The Forensics Library

Rigor Mortis and Other Postmortem Changes - burial, body, life, cause, time, person, human, Putrefaction

Stages of decomposition | Tænketanken

Rigor Mortis and Lividity

 

[RAISINISBACK]

There are two things that bother me.

One the more advanced decomposition of CR1.

For the coroner to note it in his report, it had to have been an obvious difference. Decomposition is a slow process that begins at the moment of death. A difference of a few minutes or even an hour would not have been that noticeable. There is no way his body decomposed faster than GR's who was in the trailer with him exposed to the same elements as GR. That means CR1 was killed over an hour, or hours before GR who lived in the trailer with him. Ditto with all the others.

So why kill CR1 and wait hours to kill everyone else? Why kill CR1 and wait hours for GR (a cousin) to return home if indeed he wasn't home, then go kill everyone else? It doesn't make sense. Why not kill CR1 and then go kill everyone else instead of waiting for GR to return home? KR would have been the one who was killed earlier or later than everyone else IMO because he lived a distance away from the others. Why kill GR at all if he wasn't there when the killing began? If they were killing core family, why not go to KY and kill GR's core family? Or Kill KR's kids?

How did they know GR would even come home if he wasn't there when they killed CR1? He was a grown man. He could have stayed the night with a woman or his friends. So why kill CR1 and wait hours for a cousin to return home, risking getting caught by DR returning from work or someone else dropping by, to kill a cousin?

The second if a larger caliber gun being used on GR than the one used on everyone else. If the same gun used on GR was used on any of the other victims, why would the coroner note it? Why single GR out as the one killed by a larger caliber gun? That doesn't make sense either.

IMO this singles out GR in two ways. It sets him apart from the others. He wasn't killed the same time as the man he lived in the trailer with. He was killed with a different weapon than any of the others.

The AR says CR1 was shot through a door. We have assumed it was a door in his trailer. But what if it wasn't. What if he was killed somewhere else, shot through a different door in a different house? If they then decided to take him back to his trailer, only to find GR was there in the trailer?

Otherwise, IMO GR was involved. He was the one who got them into the other houses.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

Yes, the coroner in this case is a physician and he likely would have noted if there were any extenuating circumstances at the scene. For now, we should take him at his word.

Correcting my own post. The preliminary AR's were issued by the Hamilton County ME, not the Pike County Coroner. I assume the ME would be working from notes made by Coroner Kessler.

 

[Betty P]

Yes, the coroner in this case is a physician and he likely would have noted if there were any extenuating circumstances at the scene. For now, we should take him at his word.

Correcting my own post. The preliminary AR's were issued by the Hamilton County ME, not the Pike County Coroner. I assume the ME would be working from notes made by Coroner Kessler.

Thanks Dudly! I've been doing some reading on decomp too.

At the time that the bodies were found, I'd guess that the coroner noted CR1's more advanced stage of decomp. Between lividity and rigor, they could probably tell that he'd been killed before the others.

My guess is that all bodies were in, what is called, the "Fresh" stage. The Fresh Stage, lasts 1-2 days. During that time of decomp, a lot of things happen, most internal from what I gather, except rigor and lividity. Lividity begins to work through the deceased within thirty minutes of their heart stopping and can last up to twelve hours. It may show as a dark purple coloring. Only up to the first six hours of death can lividity be altered by moving the body. After the six hour mark lividity is fixed. Livor mortis (lividity) is usually most pronounced eight to twelve hours after death.

Rigor begins throughout the body, but, normally appears to us, within two hours, in the the facial and upper neck and shoulder muscles. The deceased's face might take on what looks to be a grimace; this is because the facial muscles have contracted. Once the muscles have all contracted (8-12 hours depending on certain facotrs), the body will remain in rigor for up to 18 hours, after which, it will return to pre-Rigor condition. Putrefaction will start, and then the next stage, Bloat.

The next stage, Bloat, has a range of 2-6 days. I don't believe CR1 was that far advanced.

I believe CR1 had a more advanced state of Rigor. A couple hours. Maybe, BJM found them, much sooner after they were killed, than we think that she did. Instead of after 1 a.m., it may have been closer to the 3-5 a.m. mark. that they were murdered. IIRC Mittens mentioned that KR would come to the trailer to shower, maybe that's the only reason he died, to give them more time before the bodies were found. It seemed they tried to hamper BJM finding them so soon.

Links used to summarize the above.
Decomposition – The Forensics Library

Rigor Mortis and Other Postmortem Changes - burial, body, life, cause, time, person, human, Putrefaction

Stages of decomposition | Tænketanken

Rigor Mortis and Lividity

Skin slippage is another sign they could have noted, as well as a difference in lividity.

 

[Merrygirl]

Yes, the coroner in this case is a physician and he likely would have noted if there were any extenuating circumstances at the scene. For now, we should take him at his word.

I think my statement was being misinterpreted. I’m NOT disputing the coroner’s determination that CRsr was first. I am in disagreement of thinking there was ample time (example 1 hr+) between the killings of CRsr and everyone else (except maybe KR). If the dogs were let outside before the scuffle, the multiple shots would make the dogs sense fear and the barking would be more intense than normal annoying barks. I think the fear in barking would also set off FR’s dogs and awaken FR. Therefore one of my theories is there were two groups, one at CRsr and the other at FR’s, simultaneously. I also see a scenario that the perps came to the trailer of CRsr, waking Gary on the couch and he lets out the dogs when he opens the door, maybe there is a short discussion that wakes up CRsr who comes out of the bedroom, demands are made and things get ugly so they shoot at him as he retreats to shut the bedroom door. After the first shot a second perp holds a gun to GR to keep him in check. The first perp(s) pursue CRsr and the loot. GR is a collateral shot cuz he’s a witness. Time is spent moving GR and cleaning up while a second group is taking care of business elsewhere. I also have a theory that the same perps who did FR/HG also did DR/HMR/CRjr—maybe while the first group took care of business in the first trailer. This would also explain the similarities in how DR and HG had similar wounds. I have other theories but this is just too long. Sorry.

 

[Ellmau]

Or GR was the main target, and they went from house to house looking for him!then doubled back to the first location when he wasn’t anywhere else.

 

[rsd1200]

Correcting my own post. The preliminary AR's were issued by the Hamilton County ME, not the Pike County Coroner. I assume the ME would be working from notes made by Coroner Kessler.



Skin slippage is another sign they could have noted, as well as a difference in lividity.

From what I've understood, slippage starts to occur more toward the Bloat Stage, which starts during putrefaction, and closer to the two day mark, when the blistering begins to occur. Lots of variables though.

By seven days after death, most of the body is discolored and giant blood-tinged blisters begin to appear. The skin loosens and any pressure causes the top layer to come off in large sheets (skin slip).

Rigor Mortis and Other Postmortem Changes - burial, body, life, cause, time, person, human, Putrefaction

 

[Betty P]

From what I've understood, slippage starts to occur more toward the Bloat Stage, which starts during putrefaction, and closer to the two day mark, when the blistering begins to occur. Lots of variables though.



Rigor Mortis and Other Postmortem Changes - burial, body, life, cause, time, person, human, Putrefaction

There was minor slippage in the case of Rebecca Zahau, whose body was discovered and later photographed about 10 hrs after her murder (still not sure of TOD in that case, either). I think the point is that minor slippage can and does occur sooner. It can depend on a number of factors like ambient temperature, clothing, health, etc.

https://www.quora.com/How-long-does...round-at-first-or-does-it-come-completely-off


However you look at it, there was enough of a difference for the ME to note it.

Preliminary AR noted the other deaths occurred within a relatively short time span, at least short enough to visually indicate a similar decomp stage.

Media & Timeline NO DISCUSSION - Pike Co, OH 8 Family Members Murdered

Everyone else was killed between 1am and around 7 am, a six hour time span.

Does anyone know of any quotes in the news stating the last time someone (family, friends, etc.) spoke with CR1 or GR?
We have some vague timelines for other members of the family, with the last being around 1 am when AM texted DR. There's anecdotal evidence from social media, news media interviews, etc. that reveals some schedules of the others, how about those two?

 

[rsd1200]

I think my statement was being misinterpreted. I’m NOT disputing the coroner’s determination that CRsr was first. I am in disagreement of thinking there was ample time (example 1 hr+) between the killings of CRsr and everyone else (except maybe KR). If the dogs were let outside before the scuffle, the multiple shots would make the dogs sense fear and the barking would be more intense than normal annoying barks. I think the fear in barking would also set off FR’s dogs and awaken FR. Therefore one of my theories is there were two groups, one at CRsr and the other at FR’s, simultaneously. I also see a scenario that the perps came to the trailer of CRsr, waking Gary on the couch and he lets out the dogs when he opens the door, maybe there is a short discussion that wakes up CRsr who comes out of the bedroom, demands are made and things get ugly so they shoot at him as he retreats to shut the bedroom door. After the first shot a second perp holds a gun to GR to keep him in check. The first perp(s) pursue CRsr and the loot. GR is a collateral shot cuz he’s a witness. Time is spent moving GR and cleaning up while a second group is taking care of business elsewhere. I also have a theory that the same perps who did FR/HG also did DR/HMR/CRjr—maybe while the first group took care of business in the first trailer. This would also explain the similarities in how DR and HG had similar wounds. I have other theories but this is just too long. Sorry.

BBM
The dogs, being outside, and no note of BJM mentioning them having any blood on them, leads me to believe that CR1 let the killers inside, and CR1 put the dogs outside, himself, to keep them out of the way. CR1 may have thought this was going to be a meeting/deal going down, and expected the killers. GR may have been headed on his way back to the trailer, when CR1 was already deceased. I've long thought that GR may have been operating something, or just going there to buy/indulge, at a local hotel, that, at that period in time, was known for bedbugs... Did GR have a vehicle? If not, did he maybe call KR to come get him and drop him off at CR1's? It was said he and KR were close. If so, KR could have seen who's vehicle was in the drive. That could have made him a target. Only one shot. They felt they had to do it?

 

[Betty P]

BBM
The dogs, being outside, and no note of BJM mentioning them having any blood on them, leads me to believe that CR1 let the killers inside, and CR1 put the dogs outside, himself, to keep them out of the way. CR1 may have thought this was going to be a meeting/deal going down, and expected the killers. GR may have been headed on his way back to the trailer, when CR1 was already deceased. I've long thought that GR may have been operating something, or just going there to buy/indulge, at a local hotel, that, at that period in time, was known for bedbugs... Did GR have a vehicle? If not, did he maybe call KR to come get him and drop him off at CR1's? It was said he and KR were close. If so, KR could have seen who's vehicle was in the drive. That could have made him a target. Only one shot. They felt they had to do it?

Good analysis. The killers probably needed to make sure CR1 was at the trailer and set up a meeting of some sort. We've all speculated that CR1 was actually living at DR's place and using his trailer just for business and as a crash pad for GR.

Also good point about GR possibly needing a ride from KR. Did people at the meeting ask to talk to GR, setting in motion his eventual return to CR1's trailer. Did they know him well enough to call and ask him to come by? They could have entered, killed CR1, rummaged through the trailer looking for drugs, cash, etc., then called GR. That could have put an hour or two between the death of CR1 and GR.

I've also wondered whether the killers parked their vehicle(s) elsewhere and walked/hiked to CR1's that night. Also possible they were dropped off. Recall LE putting out requests for information from neighbors and saying the killers were familiar with the properties.

Also possible they had a driver who dropped them off and stayed nearby, ready to pick them up. But CR1 wouldn't have voluntarily let someone in who didn't live on the property and had no car, right? That gets me back to my theory that whomever set up the meeting came alone in their car and the others hid nearby and rushed in when he opened the door.