Patsy involved = BDI

[Cottonstar]

To clarify, it was apparently nearly closed. It was only open roughly one inch, which is certainly not enough for someone to get through. It would mean that if an intruder came in and out of the window, they did attempt to close it on the way out.

I could see John Ramsey's story about breaking the window to get in after locking himself out to be completely accurate. I think he eventually disclosed that to police because he figured one of the employees they had tending to the home would mention it in a police interview. I think for photos the window was opened after it was initially photographed to show the debris around the window outside and the in tact spider web.

JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia / Potential Points of Entry

JR lied about the circumstances of the window. Patsy stated that she was picking up pieces of the window and LHP was behind her vacuuming. She lied. The window was broken the night of the murder.

 

[UKGuy]

JR lied about the circumstances of the window. Patsy stated that she was picking up pieces of the window and LHP was behind her vacuuming. She lied. The window was broken the night of the murder.

Cottonstar,
BBM: This is what I've thought for years. I reckon it was part of a prior staging, possibly with a chair beneath it, and a suitcase containing stuff left apparently abandoned, i.e. a burglary gone wrong, or a break-in that turned into a sexual homicide?

Also from memory LHP says she was not told by Patsy about any broken window, nor did she see one on her travels down to the basement, e.g. paint-tote.

After the 911 call neither John or Patsy volunteer that the basement window is broken, e.g. a potential entry point, sounds like collusion to me.

One explanation is that there was a prior staging which included the broken window as an entry point?

Accepting this, was the prior staging the work of one of the parents or BR?


.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
BBM: This is what I've thought for years. I reckon it was part of a prior staging, possibly with a chair beneath it, and a suitcase containing stuff left apparently abandoned, i.e. a burglary gone wrong, or a break-in that turned into a sexual homicide?

Also from memory LHP says she was not told by Patsy about any broken window, nor did she see one on her travels down to the basement, e.g. paint-tote.

After the 911 call neither John or Patsy volunteer that the basement window is broken, e.g. a potential entry point, sounds like collusion to me.

One explanation is that there was a prior staging which included the broken window as an entry point?

Accepting this, was the prior staging the work of one of the parents or BR?


.

LHP doesn’t remember there being a broken window.

JR behavior the morning of the kidnapping and not jumping up and down and retrieving authorities about it, shows to me that he was distancing himself and someone else from that window. He did not want authorities down in that basement.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
BBM: This is what I've thought for years. I reckon it was part of a prior staging, possibly with a chair beneath it, and a suitcase containing stuff left apparently abandoned, i.e. a burglary gone wrong, or a break-in that turned into a sexual homicide?

Also from memory LHP says she was not told by Patsy about any broken window, nor did she see one on her travels down to the basement, e.g. paint-tote.

After the 911 call neither John or Patsy volunteer that the basement window is broken, e.g. a potential entry point, sounds like collusion to me.

One explanation is that there was a prior staging which included the broken window as an entry point?

Accepting this, was the prior staging the work of one of the parents or BR?


.

Also, the window at 5:52am was shut. The suitcase was not right underneath the window.

 

[UKGuy]

Also, the window at 5:52am was shut. The suitcase was not right underneath the window.

Cottonstar,
Was it Fleet White who moved the suitcase, from memory he says he placed a shard of glass on top of the suitcase.

So who do you reckon opened the window and never told anyone?


Or does JR get all the blame for tinkering down in the basement?

.

 

[UKGuy]

LHP doesn’t remember there being a broken window.

JR behavior the morning of the kidnapping and not jumping up and down and retrieving authorities about it, shows to me that he was distancing himself and someone else from that window. He did not want authorities down in that basement.

Cottonstar,

The thing about it is whomever broke the window to stage a break-in made an amateurish job of it.

Like whats wrong with leaving the front door ajar, or faking pry marks on the front door, etc? The front door ajar would be consistent with any LHP Did It scenario.

Lou Smit had to demonstrate that climbing in that window was possible, i.e. at a squeeze.

I doubt any of the parents would have thought, lets break the basement window as an entry/exit point, particularly if you intend to relocate an alive six-year old.

I've thought for years it may have been BR who broke the window so to fake an entry/exit point? It represents the same kind of naive thinking you get with the size-12's and longjohns, possible, sure but credible as a homicide setup, not really.

JonBenet need not be in the basement when the window was broken, its just a staged entry/exit point.

In the Ramsey Intruder Theory does anyone know if the intruder came through the basement window intending to kidnap JonBenet then climb back out the same window with JonBenet, or did he plan on walking out the front door with JonBenet in his arms?

I doubt either parent would ever have dreamed up the broken basement window as it does not pass the reality smell test.

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,

The thing about it is whomever broke the window to stage a break-in made an amateurish job of it.

Like whats wrong with leaving the front door ajar, or faking pry marks on the front door, etc? The front door ajar would be consistent with any LHP Did It scenario.

Lou Smit had to demonstrate that climbing in that window was possible, i.e. at a squeeze.

I doubt any of the parents would have thought, lets break the basement window as an entry/exit point, particularly if you intend to relocate an alive six-year old.

I've thought for years it may have been BR who broke the window so to fake an entry/exit point? It represents the same kind of naive thinking you get with the size-12's and longjohns, possible, sure but credible as a homicide setup, not really.

JonBenet need not be in the basement when the window was broken, its just a staged entry/exit point.

In the Ramsey Intruder Theory does anyone know if the intruder came through the basement window intending to kidnap JonBenet then climb back out the same window with JonBenet, or did he plan on walking out the front door with JonBenet in his arms?

I doubt either parent would ever have dreamed up the broken basement window as it does not pass the reality smell test.

.

Why does the window have to be broken on purpose? I don’t think it was.

 

[UKGuy]

Why does the window have to be broken on purpose? I don’t think it was.

Cottonstar,
Because, again from memory, the glass has fallen into the basement, meaning presumably someone opened the window and broke it, with the glass falling inwards?

If you are saying at 5:52 AM the window was shut then who opened it, who broke the window?


After 6:00 AM Officer French Searched Basement looking for entry/exit points?

Approximately 6:03 AM Fleet & Priscilla White arrived at Ramsey house.

Approximately 6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Basement.

After 6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Train Room, and observes a broken window with the latch on the window in the unlocked position.

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,

The thing about it is whomever broke the window to stage a break-in made an amateurish job of it.

Like whats wrong with leaving the front door ajar, or faking pry marks on the front door, etc? The front door ajar would be consistent with any LHP Did It scenario.

Lou Smit had to demonstrate that climbing in that window was possible, i.e. at a squeeze.

I doubt any of the parents would have thought, lets break the basement window as an entry/exit point, particularly if you intend to relocate an alive six-year old.

I've thought for years it may have been BR who broke the window so to fake an entry/exit point? It represents the same kind of naive thinking you get with the size-12's and longjohns, possible, sure but credible as a homicide setup, not really.

JonBenet need not be in the basement when the window was broken, its just a staged entry/exit point.

In the Ramsey Intruder Theory does anyone know if the intruder came through the basement window intending to kidnap JonBenet then climb back out the same window with JonBenet, or did he plan on walking out the front door with JonBenet in his arms?

I doubt either parent would ever have dreamed up the broken basement window as it does not pass the reality smell test.

.

My friend, I reckon the window wasn’t staged. At least not in the way you are thinking.

 

[UKGuy]

My friend, I reckon the window wasn’t staged. At least not in the way you are thinking.

Cottonstar,
Sure, presumably you have an alternative version of events?

Consider

JR says he saw the broken window on his first trip to the basement, which he closed or latched.

JR says he also saw a samsonite suitcase standing under the open, unlatched, broken window.

Also we have :
The Other Side Of Suffering by John Ramsey

I show my friend the broken window which is still open, the small splinters of glass on the floor and the suitcase. This isn't right. The suitcase shouldn't be here.

Then we have:

Approximately 6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Basement.

After 6:06 AM Fleet White Searched the Train Room, and observes a broken window with the latch on the window in the unlocked position.

Fleet White has made three critical observations in this case and nobody seems to bother much.

Fleet White's observation regarding the open window latch contradicts JR's version of events, just as his observation he never saw JonBenet in the wine-cellar also does.

1. JR says he closed and latched the broken window

2. JR says he placed the samsonite suitcase in the basement.

IMO JR is making these claims regarding 1. and 2. precisely to offer a bogus explanation for the why and the how e.g. JR says he broke the window last summer so to gain entry.

He can only be covering for someone elses prior staging, it cannot be an accident since the window is open with the glass on the floor and the suicase has moved from upstairs to down to the basement.

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
Sure, presumably you have an alternative version of events?

Consider

JR says he saw the broken window on his first trip to the basement, which he closed or latched.

JR says he also saw a samsonite suitcase standing under the open, unlatched, broken window.

Also we have :
The Other Side Of Suffering by John Ramsey


Then we have:


Fleet White has made three critical observations in this case and nobody seems to bother much.

Fleet White's observation regarding the open window latch contradicts JR's version of events, just as his observation he never saw JonBenet in the wine-cellar also does.

1. JR says he closed and latched the broken window

2. JR says he placed the samsonite suitcase in the basement.

IMO JR is making these claims regarding 1. and 2. precisely to offer a bogus explanation for the why and the how e.g. JR says he broke the window last summer so to gain entry.

He can only be covering for someone elses prior staging, it cannot be an accident since the window is open with the glass on the floor and the suicase has moved from upstairs to down to the basement.

.

Ok. Let’s start with this.

@6:10am- Fleet goes to basement and finds the window unlatched but CLOSED.

So, the window wasn’t open at 5:52am.

When JR lied to Thomas when he said he found it open, he had no clue that Fleet had searched the basement before JR “official” first time to the basement.

So at 5:52am there was no staging of the window.

 

[UKGuy]

Ok. Let’s start with this.

@6:10am- Fleet goes to basement and finds the window unlatched but CLOSED.

So, the window wasn’t open at 5:52am.

When JR lied to Thomas when he said he found it open, he had no clue that Fleet had searched the basement before JR “official” first time to the basement.

So at 5:52am there was no staging of the window.

Cottonstar,
Sure JR never knew Fleet White had searched the basement, never mind looked in the wine-cellar.

Over here in the UK an unlatched window is the same as one with the window open, since entry can be gained !

If there is no staging of the window why would JR leave it broken and unlatched for six months, remember LHP says she never saw it, nor that Patsy told her about it, etc?

Death of Innocence, Hardback page 20, excerpt

"Sometime that morning, I remember a day back in the summer when I had left my keys inside and was locked out of the house. To get in, I broke one of the panes in a basement window: then I reached in and released the latch. I could climb inside. I think about the basement now. I jump up and hurry down there."

That entry place needs to be looked at. I tell myself. I move down the basement hall and find the window. The pane is still broken, and the window is open, with a large old Samsonite suitcase sitting right under it. Odd, I think. This doesn't look right. This suitcase is not normally kept here."

"Maybe this is how the kidnapper got in and out of our house. The window ledge is a few feet off the floor, so a person would need something to stand on in order to get up and out."

So JR is obviously identifying the window as an entry point, so is this an ad hoc claim by JR?

BPD Interview 1997 with Patsy, Excerpt

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass.

TT: Okay.

PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda [Hoffman-Pugh] to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.

TT: Okay.

PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.

TT: To get all the glass.

PR: In the fall yeah cause it was just little, you know, pieces, big pieces, everything.

TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?

PR: Yeah, uh, I can’t remember. I just can’t remember whether I got it replaced or not.

Star, June 20, 2000, Interview with Linda Hoffman Pugh, excerpt

Another thing that made me think Patsy had staged the whole crime was the broken window in the basement. I used to clean their house three times a week. If something was broken, Patsy had me clean it up.

On the morning of the murder, police found a broken window in the basement, just a few feet from the room where JonBenet's body was found. John Ramsey told the police that he had broken the window to get into the house months before when he was accidentally locked out.

But I think that is a lie. If there had been broken glass in the basement, Patsy would have told me to clean it up. Another thing didn't make sense. John claimed he was locked out on that day when he supposedly broke the window. But he never used a key to come in the front or side door of the house.

He always opened the garage door from his car with his remote and came in through the garage entrance. I think Patsy broke that window herself on the night she killed JonBenet to make the police think there had been an intruder, and John concocted the story about breaking the window.

.

 

[fr brown]

It's a risky business trying to set someone up who could turn out to have an alibi. I agree that saying the ransom note was on the spiral staircase where LHP habitually placed stuff was an attempt to implicate her, but it seems to be more of a spontaneous embellishment by Patsy. On Dec. 26th, John didn't say he saw the note there [nor did he say he moved it over to the patio door]. Subsequent testimony by them on the issue was hopelessly confused, and backfired.

Much better to frame someone you know is sleeping upstairs.

If saying the note was on a bottom rung of the stairs had been a well-thought-out plan by both Patsy and John to implicate LHP we would have these straightforward statements from the beginning:

Patsy: I found the note at the bottom of the stairs.
John: I picked the note up off the stairs and carried it over to the patio door (because the light is so good there on the floor before dawn in the middle of winter).

Instead we get this:

4/30/97, John:
"JR: Well, I’d gotten up at a little before the alarm went off, 5:30 a.m., 5:25 a.m. and went and took a shower; was getting dressed and uh, heard Patsy screaming, and I ran downstairs and I think probably intercepted her maybe in the landing there, the second floor landing I don’t remember exactly; but, ah, she showed me the note and uh, . . .

ST: Did she show the note on the second floor landing?

JR: I don’t remember, uh it seems like I came downstairs, but I think she was running up and I was running down, I think, as best as I can remember, the note was still down on the first floor....

JR: Well I’m, it’s a lot of screaming going on around that, but we saw the note and read the first part. Ah, I think I might have run upstairs to look in JonBenet’s room. At one point I laid it on the floor and spread it out so I could read it real fast without having to sit and read it."

4/30/97, Patsy:
“TT: Okay. You yelled for John. John comes down. Okay, what happened, where did John read the note at when he read it?

PR: Down, down in the, you know, on, not, not in the laundry room area, but down. I said there’s a note down there....

TT: Okay. Patsy, do you recall who moved the note from the bottom of the stairs down to where John could read it with the good lighting.

PR: I think he did. I, I (inaudible). "

6/23/98, John:
"JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think. But it seems to me that [I was] somewhere here on the second floor, partially down the stairs.

LOU SMIT: She had the note in her hand?

JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, I remember I spread it out on the floor just kind to absorb everything quickly."

6/23/98, Patsy:
"TOM HANEY: ....You come down the spiral stairs [the second time]. The note is--

PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this area, maybe still on the floor or something, you know. I don't know what happened to it exactly when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right there somewhere.

TOM HANEY: The second time you don't recall exactly where it was?

PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was laying around on the floor here somewhere or something. After I went up the stairs. It was there somewhere. I know I came down here, and I either handed it to John or he went in and picked it up."

 

[FY1234]

If saying the note was on a bottom rung of the stairs had been a well-thought-out plan by both Patsy and John to implicate LHP we would have these straightforward statements from the beginning:

Patsy: I found the note at the bottom of the stairs.
John: I picked the note up off the stairs and carried it over to the patio door (because the light is so good there on the floor before dawn in the middle of winter).

Instead we get this:

4/30/97, John:
"JR: Well, I’d gotten up at a little before the alarm went off, 5:30 a.m., 5:25 a.m. and went and took a shower; was getting dressed and uh, heard Patsy screaming, and I ran downstairs and I think probably intercepted her maybe in the landing there, the second floor landing I don’t remember exactly; but, ah, she showed me the note and uh, . . .

ST: Did she show the note on the second floor landing?

JR: I don’t remember, uh it seems like I came downstairs, but I think she was running up and I was running down, I think, as best as I can remember, the note was still down on the first floor....

JR: Well I’m, it’s a lot of screaming going on around that, but we saw the note and read the first part. Ah, I think I might have run upstairs to look in JonBenet’s room. At one point I laid it on the floor and spread it out so I could read it real fast without having to sit and read it."

4/30/97, Patsy:
“TT: Okay. You yelled for John. John comes down. Okay, what happened, where did John read the note at when he read it?

PR: Down, down in the, you know, on, not, not in the laundry room area, but down. I said there’s a note down there....

TT: Okay. Patsy, do you recall who moved the note from the bottom of the stairs down to where John could read it with the good lighting.

PR: I think he did. I, I (inaudible). "

6/23/98, John:
"JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think. But it seems to me that [I was] somewhere here on the second floor, partially down the stairs.

LOU SMIT: She had the note in her hand?

JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, I remember I spread it out on the floor just kind to absorb everything quickly."

6/23/98, Patsy:
"TOM HANEY: ....You come down the spiral stairs [the second time]. The note is--

PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this area, maybe still on the floor or something, you know. I don't know what happened to it exactly when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right there somewhere.

TOM HANEY: The second time you don't recall exactly where it was?

PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was laying around on the floor here somewhere or something. After I went up the stairs. It was there somewhere. I know I came down here, and I either handed it to John or he went in and picked it up."

I think the rambling is due to the fact that they knew there were no fingerprints found (except for one of the officers) on the note and they didn't know how to explain this.

 

[Cottonstar]

If saying the note was on a bottom rung of the stairs had been a well-thought-out plan by both Patsy and John to implicate LHP we would have these straightforward statements from the beginning:

Patsy: I found the note at the bottom of the stairs.
John: I picked the note up off the stairs and carried it over to the patio door (because the light is so good there on the floor before dawn in the middle of winter).

Instead we get this:

4/30/97, John:
"JR: Well, I’d gotten up at a little before the alarm went off, 5:30 a.m., 5:25 a.m. and went and took a shower; was getting dressed and uh, heard Patsy screaming, and I ran downstairs and I think probably intercepted her maybe in the landing there, the second floor landing I don’t remember exactly; but, ah, she showed me the note and uh, . . .

ST: Did she show the note on the second floor landing?

JR: I don’t remember, uh it seems like I came downstairs, but I think she was running up and I was running down, I think, as best as I can remember, the note was still down on the first floor....

JR: Well I’m, it’s a lot of screaming going on around that, but we saw the note and read the first part. Ah, I think I might have run upstairs to look in JonBenet’s room. At one point I laid it on the floor and spread it out so I could read it real fast without having to sit and read it."

4/30/97, Patsy:
“TT: Okay. You yelled for John. John comes down. Okay, what happened, where did John read the note at when he read it?

PR: Down, down in the, you know, on, not, not in the laundry room area, but down. I said there’s a note down there....

TT: Okay. Patsy, do you recall who moved the note from the bottom of the stairs down to where John could read it with the good lighting.

PR: I think he did. I, I (inaudible). "

6/23/98, John:
"JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think. But it seems to me that [I was] somewhere here on the second floor, partially down the stairs.

LOU SMIT: She had the note in her hand?

JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, I remember I spread it out on the floor just kind to absorb everything quickly."

6/23/98, Patsy:
"TOM HANEY: ....You come down the spiral stairs [the second time]. The note is--

PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this area, maybe still on the floor or something, you know. I don't know what happened to it exactly when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right there somewhere.

TOM HANEY: The second time you don't recall exactly where it was?

PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was laying around on the floor here somewhere or something. After I went up the stairs. It was there somewhere. I know I came down here, and I either handed it to John or he went in and picked it up."

If John was completely oblivious of everything at that moment right before they call 911, then John would of had naturally picked up the note and scoured it. His fingerprints, along with indentions, creases and folds would be all over the note. He would continue reading the note over and over, he would have turned it over and looked at the other side of the paper. How did he know there wasn’t a message on the opposite side of the paper that said: “This is all a joke”?

The reason why JR says he just “spread it out on the floor so I can read it all at once”, is to give a reason why his fingerprints wouldn’t be on the note. Patsy pulled the
same thing with her story of stepping over the note on the way down the stairs, and then without touching the note and reading “a few lines” bounding back up the stairs like Superman. Jumping a full stair in the dark at 5 something in the morning. The Ramseys schema of deception is easy to follow once your attuned to it.

 

[fr brown]

If John was completely oblivious of everything at that moment right before they call 911, then John would of had naturally picked up the note and scoured it. His fingerprints, along with indentions, creases and folds would be all over the note. He would continue reading the note over and over, he would have turned it over and looked at the other side of the paper. How did he know there wasn’t a message on the opposite side of the paper that said: “This is all a joke”?

The reason why JR says he just “spread it out on the floor so I can read it all at once”, is to give a reason why his fingerprints wouldn’t be on the note. Patsy pulled the
same thing with her story of stepping over the note on the way down the stairs, and then without touching the note and reading “a few lines” bounding back up the stairs like Superman. Jumping a full stair in the dark at 5 something in the morning. The Ramseys schema of deception is easy to follow once your attuned to it.

The note was always on the floor by the patio door. Nobody except Patsy ever says the note was on the stairs. You'll notice that, even though he was colluding in the cover-up by the time of his first interview, John always avoids saying that the note was on the stairs, just alluding vaguely to it being on the first floor. Why he didn't pick it up we can only speculate; perhaps he knew better than to pick up a piece of evidence. I wouldn't pick it up to look for writing on the other side.

 

[fr brown]

I think the rambling is due to the fact that they knew there were no fingerprints found (except for one of the officers) on the note and they didn't know how to explain this.

All two conspirators would have to say was: "Patsy noticed pieces of paper over by the patio door. She read the first part and realized it was left by a kidnapper. She ran upstairs for me. We didn't pick it up because we knew better than to touch it and destroy evidence."

 

[fr brown]

It occurs to me that Patsy might have been schizophrenic. Schizophrenics sometimes use/abuse Xanax to handle the anxiety that accompanies that condition. We know that Patsy used Xanax for panic attacks, and John was loath to admit that. Families often go to great lengths to cover up behavior problems, and are often in denial about mental illness.

The similarities between the crime of Melissa Huckaby (Xanax abuser, schizophrenic, mom, sexual molester and murderer of a young girl), and Patsy's are even greater than I thought. Apparently Huckaby fashioned a noose to strangle her young victim after raping her with a rolling pin. The Ramsey garrote is actually a noose.

 

[FY1234]

It occurs to me that Patsy might have been schizophrenic. Schizophrenics sometimes use/abuse Xanax to handle the anxiety that accompanies that condition. We know that Patsy used Xanax for panic attacks, and John was loath to admit that.


Families often go to great lengths to cover up behavior problems, and are often in denial about mental illness.

The similarities between the crime of Melissa Huckaby (Xanax abuser, schizophrenic, mom, sexual molester and murderer of a young girl), and Patsy's are even greater than I thought. Apparently Huckaby fashioned a noose to strangle her young victim after raping her with a rolling pin. The Ramsey garrote is actually a noose.

I know Patsy used Xanax after the murder but not before, can you let me know the source of this?

 

[fr brown]

I think the rambling is due to the fact that they knew there were no fingerprints found (except for one of the officers) on the note and they didn't know how to explain this.

In another place John says that either he or Patsy handed French the note at the front door. That wouldn't help explain why their fingerprints weren't on it. French is clear that the note was by the patio door when he first saw it.