GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #71

[Nikynoo]

I’m curious what these red flags that were spotted are too specifically. What has been so fascinating to me about CW is that until 2018 (w affair and SW pregnancy) by all accounts CW was good husband and good dad and well liked. No signs of anger outbursts, no signs of substance abuse, no risky behavior. Well liked by all, maybe a bit introverted / quiet / passive.

@molly1255 what red flags specifically? I must have missed these.

 

[Nikynoo]

JMO, the red flags that fall between malignant narcissism and psychopathy that can sometimes be hard to detect until their mask comes off.

but what are they specifically? BTW I don't think he's either .

 

[DaisyKenny]

BBM - i don't think can be true, can it? Didn't SW control the household finances? I have no idea how income taxes and other deductions work in the US but they couldn't manage on CW's income alone. The mortgage payments were over $3000 per month IIRC and with the school fees too, things must have been tight. I don't see either of them spending money frivolously. How do taxes on income work in the US?

I didn't mean to imply her income was that high. She only made 20% on her personal sales, while most of her $130K total sales in April was more likely at the 4% commission level. It's really impossible to estimate her income not knowing what her downline was.

I have no idea if the $70K figure CW mentioned was based on her trailing yearly income or by annualizing her current monthly income going forward.

IIRC she only started selling Thrive in June 2017, so her future income could have been much higher, especially if she continued to grow her team.

 

[Nikynoo]

I didn't mean to imply her income was that high. She only made 20% on her personal sales, while most of her $130K total sales in April was more likely at the 4% commission level. It's really impossible to estimate her income not knowing what her downline was.

I have no idea if the $70K figure CW mentioned was based on her trailing yearly income or by annualizing her current monthly income going forward.

IIRC she only started selling Thrive in June 2017, so her future income could have been much higher, especially if she continue to grow her team.

Thank you. I agree, its impossible to know her income without information of the downline. But it must have been enough to cover the school fees (one hopes).

 

[NuttMegg]

Thank you. I agree, its impossible to know her income without information of the downline. But it must have been enough to cover the school fees (one hopes).

Do you think the motive for the murders was school fees?

 

[DaisyKenny]

I don't think their finances are connected to motive either UNLESS he found something whilst SW was away. I believe that he believed she earnt the same as him as in the prison interview he said that she earnt the same so she would manage ok on her own, but he said, she said she would just give up.

I don't recall CW saying that Shanann "would just give up" or Shanann herself ever mentioning anything like that in her texts. IIRC she mentioned possibly moving back to NC because she couldn't afford CO on her own.

In his mind, that was yet another reason to murder his family because he would have been expected to follow them back to NC. He wanted to stay in CO and woo NK in style.
MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

I don't recall CW saying that Shanann "would just give up" or Shanann herself ever mentioning anything like that in her texts. IIRC she mentioned possibly moving back to NC because she couldn't afford CO on her own.

In his mind, that was yet another reason to murder his family because he would have been expected to follow them back to NC. He wanted to stay in CO and woo NK in style.
MOO

its in the prison interview. I'll get the timing for you?

 

[Nikynoo]

Do you think the motive for the murders was school fees?

Gosh, no. Do you?
ETA - actually, you might be on to something. He called the school first thing Monday right? To cancel their places?

 

[NuttMegg]

Gosh, no. Do you?

Nope, I haven't mentioned them, why would anyone criticize trying for the best schools for your kids. What difference would it make to the multiple murders if they could cover the school fees or not? Don't you think, if they couldn't, they would look for other solutions? If only it were like England, where all 3 to 4-year-olds can get 570 free early education or childcare hours per year.
I'm sure glad no one ever criticized how I raised children, even happier that no one murdered me because of an extramarital romance.

 

[Nikynoo]

Nope, I haven't mentioned them. What difference would it make to the multiple murders if they could cover the school fees or not? Don't you think, if they couldn't, they would look for other solutions?
I'm sure glad no one ever criticized how I raised children, even happier that no one murdered me because of an extramarital romance.

I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick. He murdered them all, for reasons we can only guess at, and which we discuss here. IMO it was several things and not just one thing. Thing is, we will never know, but it won't stop the discussion or debate will it? It is good to hear others views!

 

[MassGuy]

If this was financially motivated, he wouldn’t need to kill the kids.

If this was all about Shanann, he would have only needed to kill her (in his mind).

He wanted a new life, I have no doubt about that.

He went the way of others who came before (family annihilators).

Only he could possibly know what played into his decision.

 

[NuttMegg]

I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick. He murdered them all, for reasons we can only guess at, and which we discuss here. IMO it was several things and not just one thing. Thing is, we will never know, but it won't stop the discussion or debate will it? It is good to hear others views!

No, I don't think it adds anything to establishing motive by discussing their every childcare decision. If they weren't able to pay, they would have adjusted things same as every other couple in the USA who don't have the subsidized care that England provides. They were already downsizing to a smaller house which SW had initiated for the whole family. Remember how surprised the real estate agent was that CW showed interest that morning?

 

[Nikynoo]

No, I don't think it adds anything to establishing motive by discussing their every childcare decision. If they weren't able to pay, they would have adjusted things same as every other couple in the USA who don't have the subsidized care that England provides. They were already downsizing to a smaller house which SW had initiated. Remember how surprised the real estate agent was that CW showed interest that morning?

I disagree on the childcare point. The children did not need to go to private school (and BTW parents in the UK can chose private school also which they need to pay for). The fact is, they couldn't afford the school fees (hence the missed mortgage payments). I agree that downsizing was a sensible option, but so too was changing to another school. I could go on and on about other factors too, but in the end its pointless. We all have our own opinions.

 

[Nikynoo]

Nope, I haven't mentioned them, why would anyone criticize trying for the best schools for your kids. What difference would it make to the multiple murders if they could cover the school fees or not? Don't you think, if they couldn't, they would look for other solutions? If only it were like England, where all 3 to 4-year-olds can get 570 free early education or childcare hours per year.
I'm sure glad no one ever criticized how I raised children, even happier that no one murdered me because of an extramarital romance.

BBM - if they can find a space! and 570 hours isn't nearly enough if you're working full time. It would be cheaper to be a stay at home mum and find something that fits in around the children.

 

[pinkie60]

JMO, the pay cut for him occurred when he was still at the car dealership, in 2014, when Bella was a baby. I don't know when Shanann left her employment at the hospital, but I believe she was working at the hospital in 2014 and was making around $35,000 a year.

They had a nearly $60,000 drop in income from 2013 to 2014 and by the time Celeste was born in 2015, which was when they declared bankruptcy, he was working at Anadarko, and the total drop in income from 2013 was over $100,000. They were down to around $40,000 in income that year and Shanann was having a difficult pregnancy with CeCe. Shanann's parents were living with them around that time. to help.

At the time of the murders, CW and Shanann's incomes were about the same, per CW. If they were each making $60,000 to $70,000 per year, that's a total income of between $120,000 to $140,000. JMO.

They had a lot of medical bills with the 2 kids too

 

[pinkie60]

Trying not to use as many words as I usually do, here's my (possibly old-fashioned) take on this:
When a family is in financial trouble, the one who can get away the easiest due to not having primary responsibility for kids and pregnancy, without the illness, the one with the superior earning capability in a trade under constant demand in an industry with oil/gas/fracking/multitude of high end suburbs needing mechanical services...... THAT ONE should be the one to high tail it into a part time job to support the family.

I'll just leave it at that, I know I'll never change my mind. The guy was a robot who had no initiative. A few wires in his childhood not soldered correctly.

Really he lived the life of Riley with Shanann and the kids

 

[NuttMegg]

I disagree on the childcare point. The children did not need to go to private school (and BTW parents in the UK can chose private school also which they need to pay for). The fact is, they couldn't afford the school fees (hence the missed mortgage payments). I agree that downsizing was a sensible option, but so too was changing to another school. I could go on and on about other factors too, but in the end its pointless. We all have our own opinions.

Not really. I don't have an opinion about which school their kids went to. For those who criticize the type of care and education they wanted for their kids, rest assured that like everyone else in the USA they would have chosen a different type of arrangement or cost if they had too. By the way, foreigners used to subsidized or free preK/child care often don't realize that kids in the USA generally don't even have that free public option at all. I would guess that 570 hours free sounds pretty good.

What the Watts choice of sending their kids to preschool or day care has to do with establishing motive is just about as valid as criticizing the type of dishes they used, the quality of his workout assemblage in the basement, how much a big couch costs, and so forth.

 

[Nikynoo]

Not really. I don't have an opinion about which school their kids went to. For those who criticize the type of care and education they wanted for their kids, rest assured that like everyone else in the USA they would have chosen a different type of arrangement or cost if they had too. By the way, foreigners used to subsidized or free preK/child care often don't realize that kids in the USA generally don't even have that free public option at all. I would guess that 570 hours free sounds pretty good.

What the Watts choice of sending their kids to preschool or day care has to do with establishing motive is just about as valid as criticizing the type of dishes they used, the quality of his workout assemblage in the basement, how much a big couch costs, and so forth.

I don't believe anyone has discussed this to establish a motive - that is not the intention here.

They lived beyond their means and didn't give each other enough time (like alot of other couples trying to make it through life). As I've said before, we will likely never know, but we can continue to discuss, hopefully, in a civil manner.

 

[pinkie60]

I think it is obvious he was never a person. He always had to be a facade because I don’t think a person is ok ome day and then decides another day to become a mass murderer.

He was fine with his lot in life until a new woman came along. One without kids and perhaps a large and varied sexual appetite.

Time for him to move on to something better. No kids. Free to do whatever . No hum drum homelife.

He was now a stud muffin. New improved Chris.

He certainly was not charismatic. I have watched sociopaths in action and they hustle for what they want. Charm, beguile.

He did that with SW. Being by her side while she was sick.

What did he do to hook NK?

He has goals. He wanted to be a NASCAR mechanic and worked hard to do it although for some reason it did not work out.

I don’t think he was passive with NK.

I think just the opposite. I don't think she would have stayed with a guy like this for very long. He was too mild.
Actually he was under more control with NK than his wife

 

[opalonyx]

Gosh, no. Do you?
ETA - actually, you might be on to something. He called the school first thing Monday right? To cancel their places?

This is typical with family annihilators. They kill in August so the school doesn't call after the kids don't show up for days and weeks with no explanation.