Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #11

[SnooperDuper]

Imagine this happens: RCMP tests the sealed water bottle and finds the pair's DNA on the lip. RCMP never finds any other trace of them and abandons the search, declaring them missing and presumed dead.

Would you be satisfied with that? That would be good enough for me. As soon as I read "rowboat" and "rapids" and thought, no trace of them for 12 days and well...I'd be pretty willing to accept that the river got them.

 

[acutename]

The river is at least 600m (3/8 mi) wide in those parts and would be ice cold. They probably hit some unexpected rapids and were too far out to save themselves.

If they have been "hiding" at the bottom of the Nelson River these past 12 days now it would explain a heck of a lot.

does anyone how high or low this river is lately? is there a Canadian web site with river gauges/water levels? or is it too remote here to have measurements? thanks.

 

[Dee10]

I'm off to google it myself but does anyone recall was Keewatinoow the place where RCMP had to search abandoned Manitoba Hydro camp buildings? I remember there was a place with about 600 rooms they searched.

Yes, I remember that too, but how close was that from the torching of the Rav4? Is the Hydro camp buildings the same as Sundance? I think there is a bit of confusion with name definitions for lack of a better word or not being local.

 

[Zella]

Here's what boating down the Nelson looks like:

Thank you for posting this! My inner daredevil thinks it looks like a blast, but my more rational side is like, "Nope!"

Seriously, though, even if KM grew up on a lake and is a capable boatsman, I don't think it means he inherently has the skills to handle that kind of water, especially in a rowboat.

 

[Seattle1]

I'm off to google it myself but does anyone recall was Keewatinoow the place where RCMP had to search abandoned Manitoba Hydro camp buildings? I remember there was a place with about 600 rooms they searched.

Yes.

I recall there's both Keewatinoow converter station and Keeyask generating station but I don't recall which is where....

 

[NJSleuth91]

Imagine this happens: RCMP tests the sealed water bottle and finds the pair's DNA on the lip. RCMP never finds any other trace of them and abandons the search, declaring them missing and presumed dead.

Would you be satisfied with that? That would be good enough for me. As soon as I read "rowboat" and "rapids" and thought, no trace of them for 12 days and well...I'd be pretty willing to accept that the river got them.

I think there would still be that level of reasonable doubt. But I've felt all along they were dead so for me personally I would be satisfied. I feel like that would be one of the better options of how this case would end considering how impossible it is to find a body in dense, remote terrain. I just keep thinking of the Gerry Largay case and how she wrote in her diary that she could hear the searchers and was calling to them, and they still didn't find her until they found her remains years later. And she was in Maine right off the AT with a logging trail close by, although the woods were so dense she couldn't see there was a trail nearby.

The real question is whether the victims' loved ones and local residents would be satisfied, since their opinions matter the most IMO.

I'm off to google it myself but does anyone recall was Keewatinoow the place where RCMP had to search abandoned Manitoba Hydro camp buildings? I remember there was a place with about 600 rooms they searched.

Yes. I'm confused though -- how is the location of the boat 8 miles away from the RAV4 if it's halfway between Gillam and Hudson Bay, as was stated earlier in this thread?

Also on a lighter note, I'm now getting ads on webpages for vacations to Muskoka, Ontario. No thanks I think I'll pass for now....

 

[dameagatha]

“Not only are our officers combing through kilometers of dense northern forest, they’re also challenged with searching & clearing large abandoned buildings like this one (with approx. 600 rooms) at the Keewatinohk Converter Station Camp, near Gillam.” #rcmpmb @manitobahydro

RCMP Twitter 7/27/19

RCMP Manitoba on Twitter

 

[Kiantra]

does anyone how high or low this river is lately? is there a Canadian web site with river gauges/water levels? or is it too remote here to have measurements? thanks.

I was wondering the same. BC rivers are very low this year and our salmons runs are significantly affected. Could it be the same there? It’s beyond my scope.

 

[acutename]

I was wondering if they entered the river at night? If so, they would not even see the rapids coming in time to avoid. They'd hear them - too late.

The videos posted of Nelson River rapids aren't in this area, but the rapids in the suspect area do look significant, and in an open aluminum boat, with no experience at picking a path, or at night, it would be very likely lethal IMHO without wetsuits and life preservers.

I sincerely hope something like that occurred, because an alternative is they found someone fishing on the riverbank, killed them, and stole their car.

ETA: I've done a fair bit of whitewater rafting. I have parted company with the boat mid-rapid on two occasions, plus almost drowned once - while still in the boat upright (pinned under a cascade).

I found this:

Real-Time Hydrometric Data Map Search - Water Level and Flow - Environment Canada

seems to show the area right around Nelson but not the Nelson River.... what am I missing?

 

[ldlager]

Imagine this happens: RCMP tests the sealed water bottle and finds the pair's DNA on the lip. RCMP never finds any other trace of them and abandons the search, declaring them missing and presumed dead.

Would you be satisfied with that? That would be good enough for me. As soon as I read "rowboat" and "rapids" and thought, no trace of them for 12 days and well...I'd be pretty willing to accept that the river got them.

That would be convenient. But until evidence is found that they are dead, I presume they are very much alive, and imo out of the area.

 

[Arizona 123]

From your group of maps/photos - can you detect their potential destination in taking the river boat?

Can't help but think maybe they planned to hug the shoreline for a bit-- hoping not to be detected when Rav4 discovered, and also did not want to be immediately tracked by dogs.

MOO

All I can offer there is a hunch (wild speculation on my part). If this is beyond the rules for this thread, could a moderator please delete my post.

Beyond the rapids I described just upstream of the converter station, there appear to me no more between there and Hudson Bay.
I've long felt that areas of interest should include the tiny ghost towns of Port Nelson and York Factory near the Nelson river mouth (the latter is a few miles south, actually on the mouth of Hayes River). After that... Hudson bay. It's around 400 miles along the coast (a fairly gentile coast from the look of it) to get to the south end of James Bay (at the south end of Hudson Bay) which has a rail line reaching the coast at Moosonee, Ontario. Trying that in an open aluminum skiff... it would take a lot of fuel, and a heck of a lot of luck, plus you'd be passing polar bear sanctuaries.

My best guess is they found themselves trapped in the Gillam region, and didn't think beyond getting away. But I can't rule out that they had some kind of a destination in mind, plausible or not.

I'm also not convinced the aluminum skiff is definitive. Two alternate scenarios for it are it has nothing to do with the suspects, or, they encountered a fisherman camped along the bank, put his or her body in the skiff and shoved it off, then stole his or her car.

Also, to those asking why such a skiff would be on a river with rapids, most of the river there is fine for a skiff (most of it has no rapids), plus you can easily transport it by car to area lakes. My guess it is was stolen from a camp area marked near Sundance, and the owner was not around, so has no idea it was stolen.

 

[Seattle1]

All I can offer there is a hunch (wild speculation on my part). If this is beyond the rules for this thread, could a moderator please delete my post.

Beyond the rapids I described just upstream of the converter station, there appear to me no more between there and Hudson Bay.
I've long felt that areas of interest should include the tiny ghost towns of Port Nelson and York Factory near the Nelson river mouth (the latter is a few miles south, actually on the mouth of Hayes River). After that... Hudson bay. It's around 400 miles along the coast (a fairly gentile coast from the look of it) to get to the south end of James Bay (at the south end of Hudson Bay) which has a rail line reaching the coast at Moosonee, Ontario. Trying that in an open aluminum skiff... it would take a lot of fuel, and a heck of a lot of luck, plus you'd be passing polar bear sanctuaries.

My best guess is they found themselves trapped in the Gillam region, and didn't think beyond getting away. But I can't rule out that they had some kind of a destination in mind, plausible or not.

I'm also not convinced the aluminum skiff is definitive. Two alternate scenarios for it are it has nothing to do with the suspects, or, they encountered a fisherman camped along the bank, put his or her body in the skiff and shoved it off, then stole his or her car.

Also, to those asking why such a skiff would be on a river with rapids, most of the river there is fine for a skiff (most of it has no rapids), plus you can easily transport it by car to area lakes. My guess it is was stolen from a camp area marked near Sundance, and the owner was not around, so has no idea it was stolen.

Thanks for your response.

Is York Factory also on York Landing? Speculation and opinions are allowed! Posting statements as a fact without source is not.

 

[acutename]

I was wondering the same. BC rivers are very low this year and our salmons runs are significantly affected. Could it be the same there? It’s beyond my scope.

this seems to have data

Real-Time Hydrometric Data Map Search - Water Level and Flow - Environment Canada

but nothing around Gillam or Nelson, where there are meters, is named the "Nelson River"
is the river between Lake Winnipeg and the mouth just named differently? I also
am not seeing dramatic lows, but not sure I am reading the data correctly. (Our similar US site seems to have more about flood stages and record highs and lows.)

 

[dameagatha]

Google Earth distance between Sundance, the possible location of the RAV4, and Keewatinohk Converter Station, 8 miles east. Keewatinohk contains a 600-room set of empty buildings that were searched last weekend.

 

[copkid]

You might want to add July 20 - Fairview AB to the timeline as a confirmed sighting.

Manhunt suspects previously spotted in Fairview: RCMP

This is the first time I have heard mention of this sighting and I have been following pretty closely. It does state it as confirmed by the Alberta RCMP. Fairview Alberta is 700km from Cold Lake so the timeline does make sense, just so surprised it has not been brought up until now.

 

[gitana1]

I think you could bleed to death in the worst situation:

Arctic Warming Produces Mosquito Swarms Large Enough to Kill Baby ...

https://earthfirstjournal.org/.../arctic-warming-produces-mosquito-swarms-large-enoug...
Sep 17, 2015 - Arctic Warming Produces Mosquito Swarms Large Enough to Kill Baby .... That is why the moose, which 40 years ago used to live only in the ...

Holy hell!

 

[Zella]

This is the first time I have heard mention of this sighting and I have been following pretty closely. It does seem to be confurmed by the Alberta RCMP. Fairview Alberta is 700km from Cold Lake so the timeline does make sense, just so surprised it has not been brought up until now.

It's a new one on me, too. Seems like it must have been a pretty uneventful stop. Can't find much detail on it.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Is York Factory also on York Landing?

According to Google Maps, York Factory and York Landing are two separate towns. York Factory is at 57.0048693N, 93.4312716W, while York Landing is at 56.0809556N, 96.1298585W, near Split Lake. I guess they're about 100 miles apart maybe? Hard to tell.

BUT there is also something called the "York Factory First Nations" community in York Landing according to Google Maps. That explains the confusion I had about why "York Factory" and "York Landing" were being used interchangeably in articles by reporters and interviewees from the area...basically there's two York Factories.

 

[acutename]

How many days do you think the diving team with be out there? Wouldn’t their bodies be way down stream by now? Thats IF they were even on that boat.

the dive team probably knows from experience where things and bodies wind up- in a pool, by an eddy, caught under rocks. actually cannot imagine diving in that, but they must know how to do it.

 

[Arizona 123]

Thanks for your response.

Is York Factory also on York Landing? Speculation and opinions are allowed! Posting statements as a fact without source is not.

This much I can say as a fact, not speculation; York Landing is not York Factory. York Landing is SW of Gillam. York Factory is NE of Gillam, out near the mouth of the Nelson River, on the mouth of the Hayes river, on Hudson Bay. They are over 100 miles apart. I do see that several media sources mixed them up a few times, though.