GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

[RANCH]

What I'm taking from this thread, by completely well meaning, empathetic, sympathetic people here, is that if I am responsible for someone's (even a baby's) death and it was accidental and I'm really really sorry, blanked out and devastated then I shouldn't have to face any consequence for my actions or lack thereof.

Yes, I can see that defense being used for other kinds of homicides not just hot car deaths involving small children. JMO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Sigh. I so dislike sarcasm. But that's my own issue.

One is that criminal negligence does not apply if a person doesn't remember that they have a child with them who is dependent on that person to survive.

Sarcasm aside, yes I suspect this is true with one caveat, that being the condition that a person hasn't actively done anything to exacerbate the lack of remembering. So if you are simply caught up in the failure of the brain to stay out of habitual routines, then yes criminal negligence shouldn't apply (IMO IANAL). But if you have taken drugs or gotten drunk etc and your forgetting was enhanced by those activities, then it is (should be IMO) a criminal act.

Another thing I learned is that technology will solve the problem of hot car deaths. Add an alarm system to every car that is potentially used to transport small children and no more deaths. JMO

I've mentioned several tech ideas, so I'm taking this as if it's aimed at me. I never said or intended to imply that tech "will" solve this problem. But I do think it can help. And having something built into the carseats helps the parent by overcoming the "I don't need it because that would never happen to ME" mindset, and by giving a possible aid that doesn't require a lot of mental energy to acquire. If I were a carseat manufacturer I would see this as not only a good safety device but also good marketing and PR. It's not going to work for every single person but it seems completely obvious to me that it would make a significant improvement. Seat belts do not always prevent loss of life but they are certainly considered worth the effort anyway.

What I'm taking from this thread, by completely well meaning, empathetic, sympathetic people here, is that if I am responsible for someone's (even a baby's) death and it was accidental and I'm really really sorry, blanked out and devastated then I shouldn't have to face any consequence for my actions or lack thereof.

Legal consequences, yes. Do you really think that would be the primary worry for a parent who had this horrible thing happen to them? The whole rest of their life will be filled with guilt, those consequences are more than sufficient punishment. IMO

 

[MyBelle]

Okay so these good parents who forget their children in their cars to die shouldn't be punished by the criminal justice system. It's only an accident.

I give up.

I think the parents should always be charged. There have to be consequences for actions and going through the judicial process is the legal consequence. Let a judge or jury hear the evidence and decide whether it was an "accident." I think Justin Harris thought he really wasn't going to be held accountable because so many haven't been charged.

JMO

 

[RANCH]

Sigh. I so dislike sarcasm. But that's my own issue.



Sarcasm aside, yes I suspect this is true with one caveat, that being the condition that a person hasn't actively done anything to exacerbate the lack of remembering. So if you are simply caught up in the failure of the brain to stay out of habitual routines, then yes criminal negligence shouldn't apply (IMO IANAL). But if you have taken drugs or gotten drunk etc and your forgetting was enhanced by those activities, then it is (should be IMO) a criminal act.

I've mentioned several tech ideas, so I'm taking this as if it's aimed at me. I never said or intended to imply that tech "will" solve this problem. But I do think it can help. And having something built into the carseats helps the parent by overcoming the "I don't need it because that would never happen to ME" mindset, and by giving a possible aid that doesn't require a lot of mental energy to acquire. If I were a carseat manufacturer I would see this as not only a good safety device but also good marketing and PR. It's not going to work for every single person but it seems completely obvious to me that it would make a significant improvement. Seat belts do not always prevent loss of life but they are certainly considered worth the effort anyway.

Legal consequences, yes. Do you really think that would be the primary worry for a parent who had this horrible thing happen to them? The whole rest of their life will be filled with guilt, those consequences are more than sufficient punishment. IMO

How do you know that the whole rest of their life will be filled with guilt?

For some perhaps but all I doubt it. JMO

 

[neesaki]

If he was on his cell phone while he was driving to work would that added distraction, in addition to road construction and traffic issues, have an effect on whether he’s prosecuted?

 

[Safeguard]

What I'm taking from this thread, by completely well meaning, empathetic, sympathetic people here, is that if I am responsible for someone's (even a baby's) death and it was accidental and I'm really really sorry, blanked out and devastated then I shouldn't have to face any consequence for my actions or lack thereof.

If it was in fact, unintended and completely accidental, then the only consequence you would likely face is vicious, gnawing, gut-wrenching pain for the rest of your life. Oh and...guilt so thickly laced with abject misery that would make anything our "Justice" system could dish out, pale in comparison.

 

[Rosegold68]

If it was in fact, unintended and completely accidental, then the only consequence you would likely face is vicious, gnawing, gut-wrenching pain for the rest of your life. Oh and...guilt so thickly laced with abject misery that would make anything our "Justice" system could dish out, pale in comparison.

yes but justice isn't about how the perp feels.....who cares about how hurt someone who has committed a crime actually feels.....his actions have consequences for him as well, and he can deal with them feelings himself....but what about the rest of the family? what justice do they get?

 

[Auntie Cipation]

yes but justice isn't about how the perp feels.....who cares about how hurt someone who has committed a crime actually feels.....his actions have consequences for him as well, and he can deal with them feelings himself....but what about the rest of the family? what justice do they get?

In the late 70s my pre-teen brother was killed in a car-bicycle accident.

He and his friend were riding against traffic (now this is not recommended but at the time the recommendations were all over the place, plus there were other extenuating circumstances for their choice of where to ride).

A car came out from a side street, stopped at the stop sign, but looked only left for approaching cars before turning. The boys were approaching from the right.

The driver was not under the influence, had no other record. She was not charged.

Of course what she did was careless, but it was not determined to be criminal.

I can't tell you how many times I had the thought that I would so much rather be my brother's grieving family, than to be her who had to carry the guilt of knowing that her carelessness had caused such hurt.

My point is, sometimes the criminal justice system is used for punishment (as opposed to rehabilitation, deterrent, or public safety). In those cases, how the perp feels does matter, because if it's clear they will be punishing themselves already, more harshly than the system ever could, then there is no need to add to that. IMO

 

[neesaki]

I realize the circumstances are different, as there were multiple signs pointing to Ross Harris intentionally killing little Cooper, but wasn’t he also described by his wife as a loving, doting father?

I would like to here if LE has found anything else possibly going on in this Father’s life, particularly his cell phone and possibly online activity.

At this point it doesn’t sound like he’s a RH type person, but then again there are some narcissistic sociopathic types out there who could no doubt pull this kind of thing off and get away with it. IMO

 

[gitana1]

If he was on his cell phone while he was driving to work would that added distraction, in addition to road construction and traffic issues, have an effect on whether he’s prosecuted?

Yes. It would absolutely contribute. It's illegal. And it is something he knows he's not supposed to do. So the mindset would be there. It causes accidents due to distraction. And because it's illegal and he knows he's not allowed to do it and does it anyhow, and it arguably contributed to the death of his kids, that would be negligence.

 

[gitana1]

I realize the circumstances are different, as there were multiple signs pointing to Ross Harris intentionally killing little Cooper, but wasn’t he also described by his wife as a loving, doting father?

I would like to here if LE has found anything else possibly going on in this Father’s life, particularly his cell phone and possibly online activity.

At this point it doesn’t sound like he’s a RH type person, but then again there are some narcissistic sociopathic types out there who could no doubt pull this kind of thing off and get away with it. IMO

That's fair. And true. I think they're investigating. Let's see what comes up.

 

[hylianquinn]

The technology is available in high end car seats, unfortunately most consumers can’t or won’t splurge $350+ for a seat. I have twins who were born as micropreemies, their lives were at risk and threatened daily for the first year plus by means I could not control or protect them from. I believe because of that I do not experience the sticker shock some may have when it comes to being able to implement safety features and stack odds in their favor.

For instance, this car seat not only notifies via app if a child is still secured when a vehicle is turned off but after a period of time if the infant/toddler is not removed from the seat a secondary alert is sent to a pre-designated emergency contact with the gps coordinates of the vehicle in the event that the driver is somehow incapacitated or did not see/receive the primary alert..

Functionality | Sirona M with SensorSafe 2.0
SensorSafe 2.0 will chime through the installed vehicle receiver to alert when a child is still secured in the back seat after the car has been switched off. This reminds the caregiver to take action quickly, but if the child is still secured after several minutes an alert will be sent to the caregiver’s cell phone through the downloaded app. If the situation is still not remedied, the designated emergency contact will receive an alert with the GPS coordinates of the vehicle’s last known position. This state-of-the-art safety technology is designed so there is no need to reinstall each time you drive. For ease, just keep the receiver plugged into your car’s OBD port to drive with that extra peace of mind. The innovative user-friendly app, also provides guidance on installation, how-to videos, FAQ’s and more to help prevent misuse.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

is this the same type of "tragedy" that occurs when a child drowns in a family's swimming pool? Some parallels have been drawn to other "similar" types of "accidents" or "tragedies" and I have been trying to sit on my hands but just can't any longer. Is this different than that?

 

[Rosegold68]

Children that drown in swimming pools are not forgotten about and left for 8 hours

That’s s freak accident due to lack of supervision

 

[MsFacetious]

is this the same type of "tragedy" that occurs when a child drowns in a family's swimming pool? Some parallels have been drawn to other "similar" types of "accidents" or "tragedies" and I have been trying to sit on my hands but just can't any longer. Is this different than that?

Sure it's different. Though it's not any less tragic or heartbreaking or guilt inducing.

With a 30 second drowning the parent knew the child was there and simply looked away, or went to the bathroom, or didn't realize they could open the door.
The parent is aware of the child's presence and simply looks away long enough for that to occur.

With a hot car death the parent believes that the child is safe with another caregiver. The parent believes that they dropped the child off and the child is playing happily.
The parent is unaware of the child's presence in the vehicle and believes they are elsewhere, until it is too late.

I think that's really the main, huge difference. In one the parent simply looks away from the child. In another the parent believes they do not have the child with them.

yes but justice isn't about how the perp feels.....who cares about how hurt someone who has committed a crime actually feels.....his actions have consequences for him as well, and he can deal with them feelings himself....but what about the rest of the family? what justice do they get?

Good question, what about the rest of the family?
I'm guessing that putting their father/husband in prison and taking away his income isn't going to help them.
Would they have to move? Would the child have to live in an less safe area? What kind of stress would the trial itself put on Mom and big brother?

I'm guessing that the 4 year old visiting Daddy in prison isn't their idea of justice.
I'm guessing that paying 25 cents a minute for phone calls for the next several years isn't their idea of fair.

Putting this father in prison would punish his wife and son as much or more than it would punish him. Dad would have his immediate needs taken care of. He wouldn't need to worry about food, housing or utilities. Mom however would need to worry about how she would keep a roof over her child's head, food on his table and heat in their home. Alone.

This is something many people don't really put a lot of thought into, because the family suffering is just a side effect of people going to prison. But in situations like these where people are advocating prison as justice FOR the family... I think it's a huge part of the big picture and should be factored in.

So, if we are worried about justice for the rest of the family? I think they are the ones who would know what that looks like to them. Right now, they appear to think it looks like Dad remaining with them, as a unit... what is left of their family.

 

[Trident]

I believe the big difference between a drowning and a hot car death is the fact that drownings have seldom, if ever, been used to kill a child. On the other hand, a hot car death has been proven in at least one case (RH) and suspected in others.

My opinion only

 

[Rosegold68]

Sure it's different. Though it's not any less tragic or heartbreaking or guilt inducing.

With a 30 second drowning the parent knew the child was there and simply looked away, or went to the bathroom, or didn't realize they could open the door.
The parent is aware of the child's presence and simply looks away long enough for that to occur.

With a hot car death the parent believes that the child is safe with another caregiver. The parent believes that they dropped the child off and the child is playing happily.
The parent is unaware of the child's presence in the vehicle and believes they are elsewhere, until it is too late.

I think that's really the main, huge difference. In one the parent simply looks away from the child. In another the parent believes they do not have the child with them.



Good question, what about the rest of the family?
I'm guessing that putting their father/husband in prison and taking away his income isn't going to help them.
Would they have to move? Would the child have to live in an less safe area? What kind of stress would the trial itself put on Mom and big brother?

I'm guessing that the 4 year old visiting Daddy in prison isn't their idea of justice.
I'm guessing that paying 25 cents a minute for phone calls for the next several years isn't their idea of fair.

Putting this father in prison would punish his wife and son as much or more than it would punish him. Dad would have his immediate needs taken care of. He wouldn't need to worry about food, housing or utilities. Mom however would need to worry about how she would keep a roof over her child's head, food on his table and heat in their home. Alone.

This is something many people don't really put a lot of thought into, because the family suffering is just a side effect of people going to prison. But in situations like these where people are advocating prison as justice FOR the family... I think it's a huge part of the big picture and should be factored in.

So, if we are worried about justice for the rest of the family? I think they are the ones who would know what that looks like to them. Right now, they appear to think it looks like Dad remaining with them, as a unit... what is left of their family.

Looking at it another way. The dad around the rest of the family will likely impact them in other ways. He will be depressed,suicidal over the years. They will be constantly on edge, scared to find him dead. Living with his depressive moods and repercussions from that.... he may lose his job, be unable to work, how will they pay bills then anyway? He may change personality completely. Will they start to resent him as grief starts to affect them more and reality hits? Maybe the family home is not going to be the best place for him after all?

 

[Rosegold68]

They will have to live with their own grief as well as his guilt. Not easy

 

[MyBelle]

is this the same type of "tragedy" that occurs when a child drowns in a family's swimming pool? Some parallels have been drawn to other "similar" types of "accidents" or "tragedies" and I have been trying to sit on my hands but just can't any longer. Is this different than that?

All accidents resulting in death are investigated by LE whether it involves a swimming pool, car, fall off a cliff. If charges are filed they are based on the evidence LE gathers.

JMO

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

I believe the big difference between a drowning and a hot car death is the fact that drownings have seldom, if ever, been used to kill a child. On the other hand, a hot car death has been proven in at least one case (RH) and suspected in others.

My opinion only

I can think of dozens of children that have been murdered by drowning. I would say it's one of the more common ways to kill a child and make it look like an accident. MOO.