GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

[Trident]

I can think of dozens of children that have been murdered by drowning. I would say it's one of the more common ways to kill a child and make it look like an accident. MOO.

I mean a pool drowning, the kind where they find the child floating, not a bathtub. Can you give some examples?

 

[MyBelle]

I believe the big difference between a drowning and a hot car death is the fact that drownings have seldom, if ever, been used to kill a child. On the other hand, a hot car death has been proven in at least one case (RH) and suspected in others.

My opinion only

I agree the Harris case opened a lot of eyes to reality and it was long overdue. I don't believe parents should get a free pass just because police decided they have "suffered" enough whether the death was in a hot car or an unsecured pool.

Couple pleads guilty to charges in drowning death of 3-year-old daughter

Central Pa. woman charged after child nearly drowns in toddler pool

 

[Trident]

I agree the Harris case opened a lot of eyes to reality and it was long overdue. I don't believe parents should get a free pass just because police decided they have "suffered" enough whether the death was in a hot car or an unsecured pool.

Couple pleads guilty to charges in drowning death of 3-year-old daughter

Central Pa. woman charged after child nearly drowns in toddler pool

Neither one of the linked cases even suggested that these people used the pool as a means to murder their child. In hot car cases, people have suspected a hot car may have been used as a means/murder weapon, but I don't believe it was proven until the Harris case. So, to me there is a difference.

 

[MyBelle]

Neither one of the linked cases even suggested that these people used the pool as a means to murder their child. In hot car cases, people have suspected a hot car may have been used as a means/murder weapon, but I don't believe it was proven until the Harris case. So, to me there is a difference.

I never suggested either link was a means to murder their child. They were prosecuted for their negligence.

JMO

 

[Catmommy]

You are responsible for your child. You and you alone. If that child cannot depend on you for their well being, they cannot depend on anyone. You brought them into this world. They cannot care for themselves. If you ignore or forget them and they die then you are responsible for their death. There are consequences to you being responsible for another human's death no matter how crushed and sorry you are or how unintentional it was.

 

[mickey2942]

https://www.kidsandcars.org/2018/08...-still-face-prison-for-a-normal-memory-lapse/

This is a very interesting article, about memory and "Hot Car Deaths". It also highlights my issue, of the inconsistency of criminal charges. In this article, a Mother left her baby in the car. She has been charged, and her trial is October.

They should all be charged, or none of them.

 

[RANCH]

For some reason whenever I have a passenger in my vehicle, I drive way more defensively than when I'm driving myself.

I feel that since I'm the driver I'm responsible for the safety of the persons who are passengers and have no control over the vehicle.

I never tell my passengers about these feelings but I feel compelled to act more carefully when others are in my car.

This probably doesn't directly relate to this case but I find the links about how people can easily forget that they have a child in their car when compared to my feelings whenever I drive with someone in my car very interesting.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

For some reason whenever I have a passenger in my vehicle, I drive way more defensively than when I'm driving myself.

I feel that since I'm the driver I'm responsible for the safety of the persons who are passengers and have no control over the vehicle.

I never tell my passengers about these feelings but I feel compelled to act more carefully when others are in my car.

This probably doesn't directly relate to this case but I find the links about how people can easily forget that they have a child in their car when compared to my feelings whenever I drive with someone in my car very interesting.

I can appreciate (and share) this observation, even though I don't think it conflicts with the concepts about forgetting.

The forgetting, IMO, is related to well-entrenched habits. And the added details about babies -- in particular their tendency to fall asleep in moving vehicles, thus leaving them quiet as well as small and typically out of view in the rear seat.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that stay-at-home parents rarely have this happen to them. My guess is that when they go somewhere, their well-entrenched habit is to open the back seat to get the baby, after parking for shopping, let's say.

I would be willing to bet that such parents have a reverse scenario kind of forgetting happen to them sometimes -- on a [presumably rare] occasion when they are out without the baby (who is, let's say, home with the other parent or a grandparent, etc) -- I'd bet it happens that the parent opens the rear door *in habit* only to discover no baby and then remember their other arrangements.

It's when we do something habitual, but we're supposed to remember that something is different this time, that we are vulnerable to this kind of forgetting, IMO.

When a parent usually arrives at work with no baby (either because they don't usually have the baby or because the baby has usually been dropped off earlier), their entrenched habit is to be in work mode, leaving the car without checking rear seats etc. I bet it rarely happens at home, because arriving home would presumably include baby a good portion of the time. Plus once home there is an expectation to see/interact with baby, whereas while at work one could go for hours focusing on work issues and not expecting to see/interact with home life such as baby or pets.

So you being on extra safety alert while driving with a passenger, one big enough to sit in the front seat with you, on occasion, doesn't really seem like a reasonable comparison to me. IMO

You are responsible for your child. You and you alone. If that child cannot depend on you for their well being, they cannot depend on anyone. You brought them into this world. They cannot care for themselves. If you ignore or forget them and they die then you are responsible for their death. There are consequences to you being responsible for another human's death no matter how crushed and sorry you are or how unintentional it was.

We are responsible for our child *to a standard of reasonableness.*

Human beings are not infallible and the law can not and IMO does not require parents to be perfect.

The intent of the parent matters.

If you prepare food for your child and something in your meal poisons your child, wouldn't/shouldn't it matter whether you did it intentionally (obviously criminal) or not (IMO not criminal)?

If a parent takes their child to a baseball game where they are injured/killed from a foul ball, do you think that parent should be criminally prosecuted?

How about if parents make their home in earthquake/ tornado/ hurricane/ flood country and one of those events injures or kills a child?

Life is not without risks. Parents protect their kids to a standard of reasonableness. There are a million shades of gray IMO in the definition of "acceptable" risk vs culpable neglect, but the bottom line is that good people with no bad intent sometimes make mistakes, even ones that have horrible consequences. There is no legislating around that and IMO no reason to punish such situations with legal consequences.

IMO MOO

 

[escape2sc]

I do not know how to start a thread and I looked but did not see a thread for Scarlett Harris - a 21 month old who was found dead in a hot car on Monday. San Diego military housing neighborhood. Mother called police at 12:42 p.m.
and stated she woke up from a nap and could not find her daughter then called back and said she found her in the car parked in the driveway.

Father Identifies Toddler Who Died After Being Found Inside Car
San Diego toddler dies in hot car while mother takes a nap
Two-year-old child dies in hot car while mother takes a nap
Overdose Reported at Home Where Toddler Died in Car: Police

 

[rjay]

You are responsible for your child. You and you alone. If that child cannot depend on you for their well being, they cannot depend on anyone. You brought them into this world. They cannot care for themselves. If you ignore or forget them and they die then you are responsible for their death. There are consequences to you being responsible for another human's death no matter how crushed and sorry you are or how unintentional it was.

Ok, I don’t disagree with anyone in this discussion. However, is this not why we have different levels of manslaughter - 1st degree murder and everything in between?

You guys are just arguing different sides of a 10 sided coin.

 

[neesaki]

For some reason whenever I have a passenger in my vehicle, I drive way more defensively than when I'm driving myself.

I feel that since I'm the driver I'm responsible for the safety of the persons who are passengers and have no control over the vehicle.

I never tell my passengers about these feelings but I feel compelled to act more carefully when others are in my car.

This probably doesn't directly relate to this case but I find the links about how people can easily forget that they have a child in their car when compared to my feelings whenever I drive with someone in my car very interesting.

I tend to do the same, also when I had my baby in the car I was very conscious of that, concerned for safety reasons, etc. , frequently checking on him in the rear view mirror.

I’ve really always had a hard time with this and can’t seem to shake it.
It seems to me that for one to completely forget their child, their level of awareness wasn’t there when the baby was put in the car in the first place. Another variable could be if transporting the baby is not their normal routine. Even then though wouldn’t they have that fact in the forefront of their mind, since it wasn’t routine ?

Ugh, I think it’s a a good :banghead: moment for me about now.

I did come across this the other day, does it sound like it could be related to the forgetting child in car syndrome? Idk, I’m grasping at straws to try and understand so for those who do, please bear with me.

HGTV's Joanna Gaines Admits Chip Left Their Son Home Alone Twice in One Week: I 'Totally Freaked Out'

 

[Catmommy]

Okay, just to be clear, I don't have animosity for this particular case and this particular parent. I hope that my posts haven't come across that way. I am absolutely ENRAGED any time/every time a baby/child/innocent is left/forgotten in a hot vehicle to die. It is such a frequent occurrence now. I do think any person responsible for that death should face whatever legal consequences are deemed just.

 

[Rosegold68]

Poor little Scarlett

Another hot car accident or a perfect murder?

 

[mickey2942]

Okay, just to be clear, I don't have animosity for this particular case and this particular parent. I hope that my posts haven't come across that way. I am absolutely ENRAGED any time/every time a baby/child/innocent is left/forgotten in a hot vehicle to die. It is such a frequent occurrence now. I do think any person responsible for that death should face whatever legal consequences are deemed just.

I don't have an issue either, I have an issue with the fact that people who are doing the exact same thing, some are charged with murder, others get a pat on the back and a sympathy card.

Does that make sense to anyone? It is like a crazy lottery. You may get a very sympathetic police detective who writes the police call from a victim of a tragedy point of view. Or a detective and district attorney who want to prosecute everyone.

And in the article I posted above, it seemed to me, that people were more sympathetic to men who left their children in a hot car, and had a higher sense of outrage when women left their children in the car.

 

[ReadySet]

IMO
Your analogies don't work.

Correct analogies would be:
Forgetting your child is in the kitchen, leaving them alone for hours, and they get into something and die, or choke to death.

Forgetting your child is at the stadium with you, leaving them sitting there alone for hours, they are abducted or fall and die.

Forgetting your child is playing outside, when an earthquake happens you don't go get them and they are killed.

I can appreciate (and share) this observation, even though I don't think it conflicts with the concepts about forgetting.

The forgetting, IMO, is related to well-entrenched habits. And the added details about babies -- in particular their tendency to fall asleep in moving vehicles, thus leaving them quiet as well as small and typically out of view in the rear seat.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that stay-at-home parents rarely have this happen to them. My guess is that when they go somewhere, their well-entrenched habit is to open the back seat to get the baby, after parking for shopping, let's say.

I would be willing to bet that such parents have a reverse scenario kind of forgetting happen to them sometimes -- on a [presumably rare] occasion when they are out without the baby (who is, let's say, home with the other parent or a grandparent, etc) -- I'd bet it happens that the parent opens the rear door *in habit* only to discover no baby and then remember their other arrangements.

It's when we do something habitual, but we're supposed to remember that something is different this time, that we are vulnerable to this kind of forgetting, IMO.

When a parent usually arrives at work with no baby (either because they don't usually have the baby or because the baby has usually been dropped off earlier), their entrenched habit is to be in work mode, leaving the car without checking rear seats etc. I bet it rarely happens at home, because arriving home would presumably include baby a good portion of the time. Plus once home there is an expectation to see/interact with baby, whereas while at work one could go for hours focusing on work issues and not expecting to see/interact with home life such as baby or pets.

So you being on extra safety alert while driving with a passenger, one big enough to sit in the front seat with you, on occasion, doesn't really seem like a reasonable comparison to me. IMO


We are responsible for our child *to a standard of reasonableness.*

Human beings are not infallible and the law can not and IMO does not require parents to be perfect.

The intent of the parent matters.

If you prepare food for your child and something in your meal poisons your child, wouldn't/shouldn't it matter whether you did it intentionally (obviously criminal) or not (IMO not criminal)?

If a parent takes their child to a baseball game where they are injured/killed from a foul ball, do you think that parent should be criminally prosecuted?

How about if parents make their home in earthquake/ tornado/ hurricane/ flood country and one of those events injures or kills a child?

Life is not without risks. Parents protect their kids to a standard of reasonableness. There are a million shades of gray IMO in the definition of "acceptable" risk vs culpable neglect, but the bottom line is that good people with no bad intent sometimes make mistakes, even ones that have horrible consequences. There is no legislating around that and IMO no reason to punish such situations with legal consequences.

IMO MOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

IMO
Your analogies don't work.

Correct analogies would be:
Forgetting your child is in the kitchen, leaving them alone for hours, and they get into something and die, or choke to death.

Forgetting your child is at the stadium with you, leaving them sitting there alone for hours, they are abducted or fall and die.

Forgetting your child is playing outside, when an earthquake happens you don't go get them and they are killed.

Not wanting to drag on too long, but if you're game to follow this line of thinking it could be enlightening.

I accept that my analogies weren't perfect matches. I was really just trying to point out risks that people easily accept/dismiss. I had comparable consequences but not matching dynamics to the deaths being discussed here. So here's one where the dynamic is the same (although the consequences generally wouldn't be):

A baby is brought in to work with the parent, and once in the office the parent gets caught up with work, goes down the hall to a meeting, and forgets baby is there. Of course that wouldn't be likely to kill the baby as offices are climate controlled.

I disagree with your proposed analogies because they don't reflect the situation where the parent has an entrenched habitual behavior that doesn't include the child, and then forgets the child when they are, in fact, present in that environment.

I think that entrenched habit is the key.

IMO the car is the horrible "perfect storm" environment -- baby hidden from view, often quiet/sleeping, and adult often has an entrenched habit of driving to work in car alone, accumulated over years of daily commutes etc. Then in warm weather the fast heating of the car means a high chance of the baby being harmed.

Hard to find a good analogy so I've tried to spell out what I think are the relevant factors, mainly a rare variation on an entrenched habitual behavior.

 

[neesaki]

IMO
Your analogies don't work.

Correct analogies would be:
Forgetting your child is in the kitchen, leaving them alone for hours, and they get into something and die, or choke to death.

Forgetting your child is at the stadium with you, leaving them sitting there alone for hours, they are abducted or fall and die.

Forgetting your child is playing outside, when an earthquake happens you don't go get them and they are killed.

So really, the major point is, a parent has a small child who is completely dependent on them. They, as loving and responsible parents, are cognizant and aware of their child and are always concerned with their well being. This is the priority of loving, caring, and responsible parents.

Unfortunately, in this instance, we have a parent who has forgotten their duties as a parent and protector of their children, to the point they cause their death.

So we ask, how on earth does one forget their own children?
I honestly have to say, I have no idea, that’s one I cannot answer.

 

[MyBelle]

I don't have an issue either, I have an issue with the fact that people who are doing the exact same thing, some are charged with murder, others get a pat on the back and a sympathy card.

Does that make sense to anyone? It is like a crazy lottery. You may get a very sympathetic police detective who writes the police call from a victim of a tragedy point of view. Or a detective and district attorney who want to prosecute everyone.

And in the article I posted above, it seemed to me, that people were more sympathetic to men who left their children in a hot car, and had a higher sense of outrage when women left their children in the car.

I agree, it needs to be consistent. I think all cases should be charged. Let a jury or a judge decide.

JMO

 

[TristanP]

And another one:

Child found dead in car outside Knoxville shopping center

 

[TristanP]

I do not know how to start a thread and I looked but did not see a thread for Scarlett Harris - a 21 month old who was found dead in a hot car on Monday. San Diego military housing neighborhood. Mother called police at 12:42 p.m.
and stated she woke up from a nap and could not find her daughter then called back and said she found her in the car parked in the driveway.

Father Identifies Toddler Who Died After Being Found Inside Car
San Diego toddler dies in hot car while mother takes a nap
Two-year-old child dies in hot car while mother takes a nap
Overdose Reported at Home Where Toddler Died in Car: Police

And a weird follow up to this story:

Overdose Reported at Home Where Toddler Died in Car: Police