TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #4

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Handsome Sailor said:
Whoa! You're making a number of unfounded assumptions. "Forcing" her way into apartment? Incorrect. The door was left cracked open (recall, victim had drugs in his system). Getting wasted? No proof. Amber was exhausted from protecting citizens from criminals. Weren't drugs found in the deceased apartment?
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No. Except the getting wasted part I'm not basing it on "assumptions." I'm basing it on statements by eye witnesses, by herself and by tenants who live there and stated that those doors self-close. They don't stay open as she tried to lie and say.

That's evidence. Not assumption. Evidence that is highly likely to be introduced at trial.

And if she was exhausted she had an even higher duty of care when it came to her weapon.

Finally, it is irrelevant that the victim in this case had marijuana in his apartment. Expect for the fact that the police used it to try to influence the public that somehow he was a bad guy who caused or deserved his own death.

Looks like it worked.
 
MsArk said:
What would have been AG’s motive for her to go into a strangers apartment and start firing? I do tend to believe this was a tragic accident.


If she was a under the influence, that makes a big difference, IMO. Has it be confirmed she had been drinking?
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Her motive is not relevant. She has not been charged with first degree murder. Whether she was reckless is what's key. Plowing into a bunch f kids while texting is also a tragic accident. But it's a crime. Because when operating a car we have a higher duty of care and failure to adhere to that duty is reckless.

If someone owns a gun and is an officer they have a higher duty of care. So if they're exhausted from work they need to make sure they're aware of where they are, what they're doing and who they're pulling their gun on/shooting at and why.

I believe it is likely she was drunk. However, she wasn't arrested for three days and I'm unsure whether they did an alcohol screen on the day of the killing.

The victim's home was searched. The victim was given a toxicology screen. Guyger's home and person weren't searched. I think she was given a tox screen later. Days later. (But I'm not sure).

The police department made sure to publicize the finding of marijuana in the victim's home. (So what? Half the country uses this drug which is vastly more benign than alcohol).

But all of that was designed to create the impression that the roles of victim and suspect were flipped. Simply because the killer was a cop.

And while cops deserve their pay and pensions and perks for the work they do, and most are heroes to me, just being a cop doesn't mean they can't be criminals.
 
So is she charged with manslaughter or murder?

This is from Nov. 30th 2018

''A grand jury returned an indictment to charge former police officer Amber Guyger with murder for killing Botham Jean. The panel reportedly decided there was enough evidence to show the manslaughter charges Guyger was initially facing were not strong enough.''

TIA
 
Handsome Sailor said:
Whoa! You're making a number of unfounded assumptions. "Forcing" her way into apartment? Incorrect. The door was left cracked open (recall, victim had drugs in his system). Getting wasted? No proof. Amber was exhausted from protecting citizens from criminals. Weren't drugs found in the deceased apartment?
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bbm
Has it ever been confirmed that the door was ajar? Is there a link? It doesn’t make sense to me. If he was in his undies, eating cereal and watching tv, I’m not sure it would’ve been open.
 
TDoc72 said:
bbm
Has it ever been confirmed that the door was ajar? Is there a link? It doesn’t make sense to me. If he was in his undies, eating cereal and watching tv, I’m not sure it would’ve been open.
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No, but that is her story.

Psychologically it was unlikely, physically those self-closing doors cannot be kept open without a strong door-stop. And it is newish block, things are supposed to work. If there was one used that night, she and defence would have said so.
 
Handsome Sailor said:
Let's pretend Amber was in her own apartment; would she have been justified in shooting the intruder?
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Not if there was no threat involved:

Is it Legal to Shoot an Intruder? - FindLaw
In order to use self-defense as a shield against a charge for a violent crime in most jurisdictions, you must:

  1. Not be the aggressor;
  2. Only use enough force to combat the threat and no more (i.e. you can't bring a gun to a fist fight);
  3. Have a reasonable belief that force is necessary;
  4. Have a reasonable belief that an attack is imminent; and
  5. Retreat (if possible).
 
Handsome Sailor said:
Whoa! You're making a number of unfounded assumptions. "Forcing" her way into apartment? Incorrect. The door was left cracked open (recall, victim had drugs in his system). Getting wasted? No proof. Amber was exhausted from protecting citizens from criminals. Weren't drugs found in the deceased apartment?
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Hope it's ok to use this source

If all this is true then the defendant has even more explaining to do

EXCLUSIVE: Video showing how heavy metal fire doors automatically slam shut in building where white Dallas cop shot her black neighbor and apartment numbers are lit up in NEON contradict her story
  • Police officer Amber Guyger, who fatally shot her black upstairs neighbor Botham Jean, claimed that his door was already ajar when she entered at 10 pm

  • But video obtained exclusively by DailyMail.com shows that the doors in the Dallas apartment building automatically slam shut if let go

  • A second video shows Guyger could not have used her key to force open his door

  • Apartment door numbers are also clearly visible and lit up in neon

  • DailyMail.com can also reveal that Guyger had made noise complaints about Jean, 26, to the building management in the days before his death.
Video contradicts story of white Dallas cop who killed black neighbor | Daily Mail Online
 
Lillymac said:
Question not directed at me, but I'll lob my opinion in this kangaroo court. She is innocent until proven guilty. She should be given a fair trial. Most comments here are insulting to LE, the court, the jurors and people in general.
What possible motive could she have had to deliberately shoot someone? When all the evidence is presented is the time to form an opinion. Not before. That's the way our judicial system is supposed to work!
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Only if you're on the jury! Do we have all the evidence? Of course not. Should that prevent us from discussing it? Of course not. This is a message board for discussion of crimes, regardless of where they are in the judicial process. We have no actual influence on the trial.
 
JMO
gitana1 said:
Without being attacked.

Also, why she didn't know she was in a totally different apartment (wasn't it even on a different floor?) could be a big part of recklessness.
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She could of kept her gun drawn on him, backed over & flipped on the light(she knew where light switches were- after all she was in her apt)
Totally different outcome.


MOO
 
Handsome Sailor said:
Whoa! You're making a number of unfounded assumptions. "Forcing" her way into apartment? Incorrect. The door was left cracked open (recall, victim had drugs in his system). Getting wasted? No proof. Amber was exhausted from protecting citizens from criminals. Weren't drugs found in the deceased apartment?
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is there a link saying he had drugs in his system? I assumed it was hers because everything else listed was hers ....and if he was smoking maryjane in his apt minding his own business is that probable cause to shoot someone because this is 2019 and its legal in most places in the country or should be Alcohol is far worse IMO I see more people dying from alcohol dependency than weed , if it was hers different situation shes tasked thru her Job to carry a lethal firearm , home is one thing but carrying it around in uniform is totally different.
I'm fine with an accountant relaxing at home smoking it but not an officer with a loaded gun and apparently (per her own SM posts ) not a whole lot of sense, smoking it while carrying. JMO
 
MsArk said:
What would have been AG’s motive for her to go into a strangers apartment and start firing? I do tend to believe this was a tragic accident.


If she was a under the influence, that makes a big difference, IMO. Has it be confirmed she had been drinking?
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BBM it wouldn't have been a tragic accident if she had done exactly what she was TRAINED TO DO!
 
gitana1 said:
That's what she says. And execution is not the remedy for not showing one's hands.

There is a defense if he had a deadly weapon or if:

Protection of One’s Own Property
Under Texas Penal Code §9.42, a person may use deadly force against another to protect land or property if:
  1. He is the owner of the land;
  2. He reasonably believes using the force is immediately necessary to prevent arson, burglary, or robbery; and
  3. He reasonably believes that the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means.
Her mistake in believing she was on her property doesn't enable her to use self defense.

And she was unreasonable in believing she couldn't use other means of protecting the property, like leaving and calling for back up.
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Bingo , you cant use the castle law when you had no right to be there in the first place , mistake or not . Back out call for backup ....if she had done that she probably would have realized she wasn't in her apt before she could even make the call, and if she's that unaware... she needed to be in a different profession anyway.
 
gitana1 said:
That's what she says. And execution is not the remedy for not showing one's hands.

There is a defense if he had a deadly weapon or if:

Protection of One’s Own Property
Under Texas Penal Code §9.42, a person may use deadly force against another to protect land or property if:
  1. He is the owner of the land;
  2. He reasonably believes using the force is immediately necessary to prevent arson, burglary, or robbery; and
  3. He reasonably believes that the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means.
Her mistake in believing she was on her property doesn't enable her to use self defense.

And she was unreasonable in believing she couldn't use other means of protecting the property, like leaving and calling for back up.
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I'm genuinely curious what the standard will be for part 1; will a reasonable belief standard also be applied there? As an attorney I have never seen the issue arise.

O/T there is a case that is *kind of* an opposite to this one, Nathaniel Rosa allegedly thought he entered the home he was supposed to be in (he was not the home owner of the residence he thought he was entering, but he allegedly thought he was entering the correct house and the houses allegedly all look similar), but it was the wrong residence. The actual home owner of the residence NR entered, allegedly by accident, shot and killed NR as NR was taking a shower. IIRC the home owner at one point left the dwelling to retrieve the weapon and then returned, which makes the case very different. But it is another case people interested here may be interested in as it is a strange set of facts for a Castle Doctrine defense claim. WS link: WA - Nathaniel Rosa, 31, fatally shot by homeowner, Belfair, 1 April 2017

(ETA: Can you tell I'm a lawyer with all the times I used the word "allegedly" LOL sorry about that)
 
Hraefn said:
I'm genuinely curious what the standard will be for part 1; will a reasonable belief standard also be applied there? As an attorney I have never seen the issue arise.

O/T there is a case that is *kind of* an opposite to this one, Nathaniel Rosa allegedly thought he entered the home he was supposed to be in (he was not the home owner of the residence he thought he was entering, but he allegedly thought he was entering the correct house and the houses allegedly all look similar), but it was the wrong residence. The actual home owner of the residence NR entered, allegedly by accident, shot and killed NR as NR was taking a shower. IIRC the home owner at one point left the dwelling to retrieve the weapon and then returned, which makes the case very different. But it is another case people interested here may be interested in as it is a strange set of facts for a Castle Doctrine defense claim. WS link: WA - Nathaniel Rosa, 31, fatally shot by homeowner, Belfair, 1 April 2017

(ETA: Can you tell I'm a lawyer with all the times I used the word "allegedly" LOL sorry about that)
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Bringing the ‘Castle Doctrine’ home
 
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