Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

[Lexiintoronto]

If during the course of the investigation the S children found that it was one of them, what do you think they might do?

 

[dotr]

Hmm, well I've said before that if this wasn't M/S, JS is the guy to look at.

Do you think that the person you suggested could/would do such a thing on his own, or find others to do it, and would they purposely "design" a m/s "scene"??

 

[deugirtni]

Do you think that the person you suggested could/would do such a thing on his own, or find others to do it, and would they purposely "design" a m/s "scene"??

Or was it a botched S/S scene, which they did anyway, hoping it would still make sense?

 

[deugirtni]

Obviously the family has been extremely opposed to police alluding through their silence, that this was a M/S.. from memory, it has been said by them that the father was the calm one, and the violence would never happen.. but have they also said the couple would never end their own lives? Specifically, is it just the M/S theory they're opposed to, or is it also the S/S theory as well?

 

[rickcross]

And BTW, the reason I don't really like KD is because he says things like this...

The other thing I spend a lot of time trying to figure out was that [the Shermans] were in a seated position on the floor, their backs to the pool. There’s no way you could strangle yourself sitting upright like that. It’s different than jumping from a stool, like we’ve seen in the movies. There’s no fall here. So, in my opinion, there can be no murder-suicide or double-suicide.

Does Mr Donovan not realize that many people, including several celebrities, have hung themselves from door knobs, which are equally as high as that pool railing? He watches too much TV if he honestly believes that there has to be some sort of fall. Just ridiculous, especially when you are trying to make such a conclusive point.

Another thought that struck me is, what is the "actual purpose" of the investigative team? Something tells me, given the quick formation, that the team may just be a way to get information and to prepare for a possible defence if necessary. Who exactly assembled that team? Seems odd that for something like this you would hire the top DEFENCE attorney in the country.

This line from Lexi's post really gave me pause for thought, "BS asked him to seek a traditional mortgage from one of the large banks". We already know that JS had already unsuccessfully tried to take control of the family business. We also know that Barry had found out about it. Now we know that when JS was in need of cash, that Barry had turned him away. Could JS have started to worry that he would be cut out of the will? With Barry's recent win in court over the cousins and the successful countersuit that would force them to pay Barry's legal bills, perhaps this seemed like the perfect opportunity to get rid of the parents? People would obviously look at KW as a suspect. Hmm.

At that press conference, Saunders said that he was positive the killer was watching. Who are the only people on the planet that you could guarantee would be tuned in? The family. Who has access to the house? Who knows their schedules? Who stood to benefit the most? And who was having personal problems with both Honey and Barry?

 

[ldlager]

Do you think that the person you suggested could/would do such a thing on his own, or find others to do it, and would they purposely "design" a m/s "scene"??

Hypothetically speaking, common sense would be that if the person(s) responsible for this crime are as close to the family as the person that was suggested, they would ensure that they have an ironclad alibi for where they were when these crimes were committed. JMO

 

[ldlager]

And BTW, the reason I don't really like KD is because he says things like this...

The other thing I spend a lot of time trying to figure out was that [the Shermans] were in a seated position on the floor, their backs to the pool. There’s no way you could strangle yourself sitting upright like that. It’s different than jumping from a stool, like we’ve seen in the movies. There’s no fall here. So, in my opinion, there can be no murder-suicide or double-suicide.

Does Mr Donovan not realize that many people, including several celebrities, have hung themselves from door knobs, which are equally as high as that pool railing? He watches too much TV if he honestly believes that there has to be some sort of fall. Just ridiculous, especially when you are trying to make such a conclusive point.

Another thought that struck me is, what is the "actual purpose" of the investigative team? Something tells me, given the quick formation, that the team may just be a way to get information and to prepare for a possible defence if necessary. Who exactly assembled that team? Seems odd that for something like this you would hire the top DEFENCE attorney in the country.

This line from Lexi's post really gave me pause for thought, "BS asked him to seek a traditional mortgage from one of the large banks". We already know that JS had already unsuccessfully tried to take control of the family business. We also know that Barry had found out about it. Now we know that when JS was in need of cash, that Barry had turned him away. Could JS have started to worry that he would be cut out of the will? With Barry's recent win in court over the cousins and the successful countersuit that would force them to pay Barry's legal bills, perhaps this seemed like the perfect opportunity to get rid of the parents? People would obviously look at KW as a suspect. Hmm.

At that press conference, Saunders said that he was positive the killer was watching. Who are the only people on the planet that you could guarantee would be tuned in? The family. Who has access to the house? Who knows their schedules? Who stood to benefit the most? And who was having personal problems with both Honey and Barry?

Ahhh rickcross, are you really starting to peaking around the wall from the dark side?

 

[dotr]

Hypothetically speaking, common sense would be that if the person(s) responsible for this crime are as close to the family as the person that was suggested, they would ensure that they have an ironclad alibi for where they were when these crimes were committed. JMO

If that person had an ironclad alibi, it might not matter if others were commissioned to "do the deed" (as KW would say) although it would be interesting if 2 killers each provided the other with an alibi.
imo, speculation.

 

[nuff]

If that person had an ironclad alibi, it might not matter if others were commissioned to "do the deed" (as KW would say) although it would be interesting if 2 killers each provided the other with an alibi.
imo, speculation.

KD makes the point that it was probably more than one person, given the weights of the bodies. He also disputes that the killers were professionals.

 

[ldlager]

KD makes the point that it was probably more than one person, given the weights of the bodies. He also disputes that the killers were professionals.

To me his points re there not being prof. killers seem off the mark. I believe the scene was substantially "wiped clean" and that the bodies were left staged in such a way that evidently a m/s was perceived by LE as a real possibility.

A good defence lawyer would perhaps have a relatively easy time convincing a jury that a m/s was not beyond a reasonable doubt. The lawyer could say -"... after all, even LE pursued this avenue for many weeks, even when they had possession of the crime scene, videos, physical evidence.,etc.... LE thought it was a M/S..."

 

[ldlager]

If that person had an ironclad alibi, it might not matter if others were commissioned to "do the deed" (as KW would say) although it would be interesting if 2 killers each provided the other with an alibi.
imo, speculation.

My point exactly.

 

[rickcross]

Do you think that the person you suggested could/would do such a thing on his own, or find others to do it, and would they purposely "design" a m/s "scene"??

If the Bank of Sherman was preparing to close its doors, yes I do. He made a desperate play when he tried to overthrow Barry and he may have just started to see the consequences. As for staging the murder scene, I don't think it would be a shock to anyone, and I don't mean to come across as sexist, but sometimes gay people can be a little over the top in everything they do. As far as this case goes, the staging of the scene has always been my sticking point. A hired killer or an angry business associate simply would not have done it that way. I believe that this was M/S or failing that, a family member. In the past, when considering JS, my biggest question has always been why? He was always going to get his inheritance, and Barry seemed to have no problem financing whatever he had going. Lately, it seems that this was no longer the case. If Barry were to take it one step further and cut him out of his will, JS's future as he saw it would be screwed.

 

[rickcross]

If that person had an ironclad alibi, it might not matter if others were commissioned to "do the deed" (as KW would say) although it would be interesting if 2 killers each provided the other with an alibi.
imo, speculation.

Hiring assassins opens up a whole can of worms. No matter how much you pay them, they will always come back for more. It's just more people to screw up. I find that in more cases than not, hired killers tend to tip off the police rather than going through with it. Sometimes they demand the money up front and then bail. What are you gonna do? Call the cops? And lastly, if you have an iron clad alibi, why try and make it look like a M/S. A bullet to the head in a parking lot by a total stranger is just about an impossible case to solve. Hired killers simply would not do it like that.

 

[rickcross]

KD makes the point that it was probably more than one person, given the weights of the bodies. He also disputes that the killers were professionals.

Another idiotic statement by Donovan. Honey could have been dead before Barry even got home. I'm over 50 and manage to move a fold up couch up two stories by myself. I'm sure a healthy man could very easily move two bodies downstairs by himself.

 

[dotr]

Another idiotic statement by Donovan. Honey could have been dead before Barry even got home. I'm over 50 and manage to move a fold up couch up two stories by myself. I'm sure a healthy man could very easily move two bodies downstairs by himself.

Agree only with the latter part of your post, having no desire to "bite the hand that feeds" so to speak. imo.

 

[ldlager]

Hiring assassins opens up a whole can of worms. No matter how much you pay them, they will always come back for more. It's just more people to screw up. I find that in more cases than not, hired killers tend to tip off the police rather than going through with it. Sometimes they demand the money up front and then bail. What are you gonna do? Call the cops? And lastly, if you have an iron clad alibi, why try and make it look like a M/S. A bullet to the head in a parking lot by a total stranger is just about an impossible case to solve. Hired killers simply would not do it like that.

You would need an alibi in case LE determined it was a M/M, and started investigating those closest to the family, asking for an alibi.
Hired killers I agree often wouldn"t complete the task. But IMO PROFESSIONAL killers would do exactly what they were hired to do, in the way they were hired to do it, IMO. (not that I've ever tried to hire one, just to be clear).

 

[Lexiintoronto]

And BTW, the reason I don't really like KD is because he says things like this...

The other thing I spend a lot of time trying to figure out was that [the Shermans] were in a seated position on the floor, their backs to the pool. There’s no way you could strangle yourself sitting upright like that. It’s different than jumping from a stool, like we’ve seen in the movies. There’s no fall here. So, in my opinion, there can be no murder-suicide or double-suicide.

Does Mr Donovan not realize that many people, including several celebrities, have hung themselves from door knobs, which are equally as high as that pool railing? He watches too much TV if he honestly believes that there has to be some sort of fall. Just ridiculous, especially when you are trying to make such a conclusive point.

Another thought that struck me is, what is the "actual purpose" of the investigative team? Something tells me, given the quick formation, that the team may just be a way to get information and to prepare for a possible defence if necessary. Who exactly assembled that team? Seems odd that for something like this you would hire the top DEFENCE attorney in the country.

This line from Lexi's post really gave me pause for thought, "BS asked him to seek a traditional mortgage from one of the large banks". We already know that JS had already unsuccessfully tried to take control of the family business. We also know that Barry had found out about it. Now we know that when JS was in need of cash, that Barry had turned him away. Could JS have started to worry that he would be cut out of the will? With Barry's recent win in court over the cousins and the successful countersuit that would force them to pay Barry's legal bills, perhaps this seemed like the perfect opportunity to get rid of the parents? People would obviously look at KW as a suspect. Hmm.

At that press conference, Saunders said that he was positive the killer was watching. Who are the only people on the planet that you could guarantee would be tuned in? The family. Who has access to the house? Who knows their schedules? Who stood to benefit the most? And who was having personal problems with both Honey and Barry?

***Just a disclaimer here. Below is about suicide methods. There is treatment and help if you’re feeling suicidal. Please hold on. Call 911, or your local non-emergency police number. They will help.
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I agree with you about being able to hang yourself from a low height. And no, height isn’t required the way Donovan describes it. I don’t know how that part got past the editor. It’s easily to disprove.

But if it’s from a low height, the weight of your body needs to be used. BS would have been found leaning forward, IMO. Donovan said he was sitting upright.

My friend killed herself, and I asked the officer why she chose such a violent method. The officer, who was very kind, said ‘because she wanted to die, and wanted no room for error’. There was no easy way to say it.

If BS had done this, I’d expect he would have thought the same way. If you’ve just killed your wife and ending your own life is the route you’re going to take, he left some room for surviving, IMO.

Access to the world of drugs and an indoor swimming pool? I would think those would be used in conjunction to hanging. No room for ‘failure’.

 

[Tobiano8th]

i would think that anyone who is paid alot of money to do a professional hit is involved (at least informally) in an organization where "honor" is very important. that could be many organizations, not just the obvious ones.......... so they won't come back for more $$$ later.

if you get a crack addict to do it, then no.......... but i'm guessing they'd have been caught fairly easily

 

[Tobiano8th]

i remember "american justice" and one of its ads with dramatic statement "solving a crime where the killer has no relationship to the victim is unbelievably difficult". and of course, they mean the person who did the actual act.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Hiring assassins opens up a whole can of worms. No matter how much you pay them, they will always come back for more. It's just more people to screw up. I find that in more cases than not, hired killers tend to tip off the police rather than going through with it. Sometimes they demand the money up front and then bail. What are you gonna do? Call the cops? And lastly, if you have an iron clad alibi, why try and make it look like a M/S. A bullet to the head in a parking lot by a total stranger is just about an impossible case to solve. Hired killers simply would not do it like that.

I just want to point out that KW’s ‘Louie, the quasi-gangster’ hitman seems discreet.