CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - *Arrest* #66

[crhedBngr]

Yes, there is a Super Max prison in Colorado, I believe in Florence, has the Unibomber and El Chapo there as well as many other infamous criminals, can only hope Patrick ends up there.

Yes, I believe @mustloveco alluded to Florence as a permanent home for PF.

 

[riolove77]

No, I'm not reaching. That's your opinion. The defense fought hard to keep the testimony out because that was the defense's job to do so. I doubt any defense attorney is "horrified" over letters from a convicted felon with gang ties which have NOT been forensically authenticated.

JMO

I don't know what you mean by "forensically authenticated". Are you saying there should be MORE authentication done than what the law requires before it's allowed as evidence?

 

[riolove77]

Was the investigator a trained handwriting analysis expert? Nope. The investigator was listed on the hit list so he was biased. Outside of the jury's presence, the defense challenged the admissibility of the evidence which is exactly what they were supposed to challenge.

JMO

The law does not require a trained handwriting analyst. All it requires is that someone who is familiar with the writing and has seen it before testify to its similarity. That's it. The defense knows that and thus knew it would come in. They still could have, in the presence of the jury who will decide their client's fate, cross the agent on his familiarity with the writing, how often he's seen samples of Frazee's writing before this, etc. They did not. That's telling.

 

[enelram]

Does anyone else think the DA has already established WHO paid John Doe's bail?
Betcha they know. And we may not be finished
w/ some Frazee charges here.
Ma, are ya listening????

 

[ajaylee]

SF HAD to at least be "in on" the planning and/or discussion of the 'witness disappearing plans'; notifying her was apparently pivotal to the plan. Her cellphone was part of the notes to 'John Doe'.

PF apparently needed SF to know the plans had been enacted - for something else to move forward? and what was that? Why did she need to be notified?

This makes one (well, me) wonder: was she also pivotal in planning KB's murder?

I agree. PF arranges to send SF a coded message saying, in effect, "It's been taken care of". If she truly didn't have any clue what was going on, her response should have been "What are you talking about? What has been taken care of?"

After all, it could have been something related to the franch or Baby K custody business and nothing to do with working with a jailmate to silence witnesses.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

You guys, I have been SO busy the last couple of days running from courthouse to courthouse on thousands of things. I'm sorry I haven't checked in, but I've been reading every single page; usually by the time I read something someone's tagged me in asking a question, that thread has closed. I'm still about 20 pages behind on this thread but I'm moving it along. I plan on being available as much as possible today and tomorrow for any legal questions I can try to answer before court resumes (for them AND me lol) Monday.

Thank you so much for offering! If you're going to court house to courthouse, perhaps you could stop by the courthouse to get the paperwork on who put up the bail for John Doe?

It seems the media is hesitant to have an investigative reporter to look into such. I would assume that is public record?

I'm not really asking you to take the time to do such, but in my virtual world I wish you could.

 

[Alathea]

BBM:

I think this is exactly what these 2 did.

What I'm wondering is when exactly this "secret code" was developed between the two of them.

I wonder if in fact what SF said to Ma when he called her from the townhome on Thanksgiving Day was, "The horses are taken care of, but it took me longer than I thought to corral them. I'll be late for dinner."

There are only 2 possibilities here:

They either developed this secret coded language b/t them before KB was murdered, or they developed it after KB was murdered.

If they came up with their coded lingo after, they most likely established it between themselves somehow after PF was arrested and behind bars.

Teller County Jail & Detention Center Info: Visiting, Bail, Location, Safety

According to the link above, both visits and phone calls are both monitored and recordedat the Teller Co. Jail

Interestingly, though, both incoming and outgoing mail at the jail is "inspected but not read."

I suspect that this is where PF got the "idea" that writing letters to Bentley was much more discreet than communicating w/ him via phone.

I think he and Ma sent letters back and forth to each other as a means of relaying info and establishing their incredibly clever, which is to say, unbelievably stupid, top secret coded language.

JMO.

bbm. It seems they had the code in place for KB's murder, and it may go even further: that SF helped plan KB's murder, not just the prearranged code to report it.

We may never know, but it certainly looks like she was conspiring at the very least.

 

[Noharg]

Abduct her and make her clean out her bank accounts like he’s some Mexican drug cartel member.

It’s laughable. I mean he acts like one low rent “ganara” from Colorado is going to be able to go on a high level killing spree for a stranger, in exchange for a little bit of loot.

@MemPat said it perfectly. The boy ain’t right.

ITA PF’s plan (if we can call it that) was so preposterous that I’m sure even John Doe had a good laugh at it.

 

[Warwick7]

The law does not require a trained handwriting analyst. All it requires is that someone who is familiar with the writing and has seen it before testify to its similarity. That's it. The defense knows that and thus knew it would come in. They still could have, in the presence of the jury who will decide their client's fate, cross the agent on his familiarity with the writing, how often he's seen samples of Frazee's writing before this, etc. They did not. That's telling.

Yup!!!!
"The defense knows that and thus knew it would come in. They still could have, in the presence of the jury who will decide their client's fate, cross the agent on his familiarity with the writing, how often he's seen samples of Frazee's writing before this, etc. They did not. That's telling."

You took the words right out of my husband's mouth. As posts were coming in I was reading them put loud to him. I couldn't read fast enough! Lol!!
He was dumbfounded that the Defense choose not to cross examine Slater.

 

[riolove77]

Could the letter receiver have been an inside CI?
Placed with him on purpose?
If he was would it be a problem or a resolution?
Patrick was unloading some major stuff! To a stranger who he believed thought like him
Poor guy was probably completely freaking out as each note came
I never heard did PF get notes back or nods?
Moo

A CI can be placed with an inmate to whom 5th and 6th Amendment rights have attached. The only thing they cannot do is attempt to get info from them, basically making them in lieu of an LEO. If the CI just sits there and this idiot takes it upon himself to initiate this interaction, then that's wonderful. Well not for PF.

 

[Area52]

As the songs says.".Mommas don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys"....

 

[enelram]

It's starting to look like PF doesn't do anything
without running it by Ma first. And then letting her know first when a task has been done.
And he's 33 years old?????

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

YEP and KK better be looking over her shoulder for the rest of her life. There's some kind of twisted justice there.

I don't feel sorry for her she had the power to put a stop to this from the get go. I also don't feel sorry for MS. They made their choice to Ally themselves with the devil. He always shows up for his dues. He takes Ride or Die very seriously. They can still breath, thanks to this witness coming forward.
MOO

 

[ajaylee]

Why would PF have called in a handwriting expert at that point? The burden of proof is on the prosecution. Why didn't the DA call in a verification witness instead of the agent who was listed on the hit list?

JMO

With all due respect, none of us know what was said during the discussion between the judge, prosecution and defense before the judge ruled these letters admissible.

For all we know, PF did not deny he wrote the letters. If that's the case, there's no reason for the defense to challenge their own client and demand forensic analysis.

 

[MsBetsy]

I think money was a motive, but perhaps not the main one.

Yes, her parents were comfortable, and perhaps insurance had to do with it. That may have helped him make his decision. (Money was a major factor in Jennifer/Fotis Dulos case too, no doubt.)

But, as a verified psychologist who was on this thread several days ago perfectly described, I believe this case, and cases like this (Jennifer Dulos and Nicole Montalvo murders, etc.) are based in the complete need - not just desire - of these men to control.

It's what they've done all their lives. They have a way of finding women whom they are able to control, and if that's not working as they'd like, they cannot deal with it. I think KB was loving and warm, but also a bit independent in a way he couldn't stand. Would love to know more about the personality interactions, more about why the aunt said she had planned to break up (amicably, perhaps? Maybe remain 'best friends' and co-parents, but not lovers?)

There are books on this topic, but these 3 recent murders alone would make for a great book by someone who is a DV / control expert.

Edit: Grammar on who ->whom

Well, I was referring to PF's reference to Moore's wife being a "cash cow."
I think he was offering the potential hitman as much incentive as possible.

I think his motive had more to do with his resentment of Kelsey and his loss of control over the custody situation.

He knew if he just told her the truth about not wanting a future with her it would be harder to get custody of his child.

So instead he began scheming and planning to prove she was a bad mother while pretending all was well between them.

When he realized that was not going to work it infuriated him and he started taking steps to kill her.

Imo

 

[ajaylee]

The defense challenged the admissibility of the evidence from the criminal gang member. No, the jury was not present when that challenge was made.

JMO

No, the jury wasn't present and neither were we.

It appears that the defense challenged the admissibility, likely because the content did not favor their client.

There is zero evidence that the defense challenged the authenticity of the letters.

If there had been any question about the authenticity of the letters, I am certain the defense would have raised the issue. I don't think PF denied writing them.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

The law does not require a trained handwriting analyst. All it requires is that someone who is familiar with the writing and has seen it before testify to its similarity. That's it. The defense knows that and thus knew it would come in. They still could have, in the presence of the jury who will decide their client's fate, cross the agent on his familiarity with the writing, how often he's seen samples of Frazee's writing before this, etc. They did not. That's telling.

Of course PF has every right to take the stand and clarify. Judge Sells made that very clear.

 

[NoSI]

Interesting that one of the notes was written on the back of a prison commissary receipt. Normally I would say someone couldn't possibly be so stupid as to write their request to have a witness killed on the back of their own verifiable receipt, but this IS PF we are talking about......

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein

 

[NoSI]

Yes, that makes perfect sense!

Are you a writer, MG? Have you considered doing an Ann Rule-type book about the case?

I totally start saving for that book now by cutting out one Starbucks per week. This is HUGE @MassGuy! Please do...

 

[Alathea]

Well, I was referring to PF's reference to Moore's wife being a "cash cow."
I think he was offering the potential hitman as much incentive as possible.

I think his motive had more to do with his resentment of Kelsey and his loss of control over the custody situation.

He knew if he just told her the truth about not wanting a future with her it would be harder to get custody of his child.

So instead he began scheming and planning to prove she was a bad mother while pretending all was well between them.

When he realized that was not going to work it infuriated him and he started taking steps to kill her.

Imo

Excellent, important points. The loss of control over the custody situation is a really important factor - same with Fotis Dulos!

These men view the women and children as their property (part of that entire psyche of control/ownership) and cannot bear to not have complete control over the situation including visitation, schedules, how to raise the children, money, etc.

Same situation with many of these murders, IMO!