Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[JudgeJudi]

Here's something thought provoking.

Someone suggested earlier that OBG may have spat on the bridge. Yes, that's possible, but there may be a more credible explanation why LE went racing back to the bridge for something.



I've read that when the guys were searching in the river they collected at least 2 things, one of which was a cigarette butt. Of course this may well be speculation.

If LE viewed what was on the phone on Feb 14 and saw this and also thought it was a cigarette, if they could find a butt that he dropped on the bridge, or underneath it, and it had the same DNA as the one found in the river that would be quite compelling evidence.

 

[Charlot123]

I firmly believe LE has a good idea who the murderer(s) is/are.

I think the twist is simply a circumstance of the case that is unlike any other case seen by him thus far in his career. It could be something revolving around the POI's, the scene, the bodies, the manner of death, or a combination of all.

What if the killers were twins? That'd be a twist. You know, not quite sure which one did the killing?

As long as they have the DNA, they can find it out. I think I posted it here already. it was a better source but BBC should do.
Why criminal twins may no longer be safe

I think it is the situation when someone sends a disturbed person, BG, to fetch the girls, then kills and leaves unnoticed (is the creek passable? A small rowboat could be used). And the BG walks back the same way.

He, the BG, may have obvious issues known to everyone, and the perp he considers his friend, or his hero. It could be a twist.

Another one, different people could have killed the girls, and it is seen by the MOD. This is why they use the word “responsible”, the mastermind.

 

[JudgeJudi]

if police knew who the killer was they would have arrested him by now

It's just not enough to know who he is. Obviously the DA doesn't think the available evidence can prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt. The highest standard of proof is required in criminal law, especially as this will be a death penalty trial, and they'll only get once chance to prosecute him. Basically they have to be ready to go to trial once he's arrested and LE keeps saying they're missing one piece, i.e. a person to come forward.

Their frustration must be driving them crazy. The last thing the families would want to see is someone go to trial and get off on a technicality. This man must pay the highest price the court will allow. As the death penalty hasn't been enacted in Indiana since 2009, I imagine he'll get consecutive life sentences.

 

[Charlot123]

It is my FEELING, no proof, that he's obsessed with edged weapons, such as rapiers, swords, and fancy knives. And that he had a long edged blade in his pants leg, in a sheath or scabbard. MOO. And that the staging and manner of death indicate such. My worry is that he's from just far enough away that parents would be unaware of the murders and the video...

Moonracer, I saw an old movie of 1943, “Meshes of the afternoon”, it has some details that make me wonder if the killer saw it, too.

Look at the knife. It also has a key, a sandal, a flower, two (or more) women in a barn. A one, in fact, but in a loop. A person in a hood with a mirror instead of the face. Shards of a mirror next to water. They show a man, not looking like the BG, but maybe this is how he sees himself? A woman in the chair with cuts on her throat.

I would like the LE to see the end. If the position of the body was like there, sitting, head tilted back, the wounds visible - I wonder if someone was reconstructing it? If someone likes old movies?

I am not linking it but it is “Meshes of the afternoon” by Maya Deren, 1943, on YouTube.

 

[Charlot123]

on another note.....I don't understand what LE would be losing if they released more info....i bet ya it would possibly get the case solved sooner

At this point in time, the LE is risking everything if they don’t.

 

[Moonracer]

Moonracer, I saw an old movie of 1943, “Meshes of the afternoon”, it has some details that make me wonder if the killer saw it, too.

Look at the knife. It also has a key, a sandal, a flower, two (or more) women in a barn. A one, in fact, but in a loop. A person in a hood with a mirror instead of the face. Shards of a mirror next to water. They show a man, not looking like the BG, but maybe this is how he sees himself? A woman in the chair with cuts on her throat.

I would like the LE to see the end. If the position of the body was like there, sitting, head tilted back, the wounds visible - I wonder if someone was reconstructing it? If someone likes old movies?

I am not linking it but it is “Meshes of the afternoon” by Maya Deren, 1943, on YouTube.

I had not heard of the movie. It sounds very scary, and even scarier if someone was imitating it. LE should hear about it!

 

[distracted]

The fact that LE has said repeatedly that OBG was “suspected of having participated in the murders” is a good reason in and of itself to think two perps may have been involved. I've thought this for a very long time and still do.

ETA: How many murders have you followed here where this sort of comment has been made over and over almost from the very beginning. The norm is that you only read/hear of one suspect until such time as LE come out and say there may be more than one suspect. It's more than a little odd.

You're right about the use of the word "participated". When one person is responsible, the word most often used is "committed". The word "participated" implies acting with someone else or a group.

 

[margarita25]

I firmly believe LE has a good idea who the murderer(s) is/are.

I think the twist is simply a circumstance of the case that is unlike any other case seen by him thus far in his career. It could be something revolving around the POI's, the scene, the bodies, the manner of death, or a combination of all.

What if the killers were twins? That'd be a twist. You know, not quite sure which one did the killing?

As long as they have the DNA, they can find it out. I think I posted it here already. it was a better source but BBC should do.
Why criminal twins may no longer be safe

I think it is the situation when someone sends a disturbed person, BG, to fetch the girls, then kills and leaves unnoticed (is the creek passable? A small rowboat could be used). And the BG walks back the same way.

He, the BG, may have obvious issues known to everyone, and the perp he considers his friend, or his hero. It could be a twist.

Another one, different people could have killed the girls, and it is seen by the MOD. This is why they use the word “responsible”, the mastermind.

From the DNA Parabon Match Thread / you may find this article of interest re: twins:

Suspect in Brutal Rapes of 9-Year-Old Girl and Woman in O.C. During Mid-1990s Arrested Through DNA Evidence: Sheriff
JANUARY 11, 2019

“The decades-old cold cases were solved using "similar tactics" as those used to track down the Golden State Killer accused of slayings and rapes throughout California, Orange County Sheriff Don Barnes told reporters Friday. Accused serial killer Joseph James DeAngelo was found through DNA taken from genealogy sites such as Ancestry.com and 23andMe.com, authorities have said.

But the DNA evidence found in both O.C. rape cases was initially linked to two men.

"In an unexpected turn of events, the DNA profile led not to just one individual but two — twin brothers," Barnes said.

“...Konther and his brother were both arrested..snip...Since they are identical twins, their DNA profiles are identical.

Upon further investigation, authorities identified Konther as the actual suspect...”

DNA Solves Cold Cases/Parabon Nanolabs & GED/Match.

 

[PaulaDC]

You're right about the use of the word "participated". When one person is responsible, the word most often used is "committed". The word "participated" implies acting with someone else or a group.

A "controlled" religious murder ritual/initiation.

 

[sunshineray]

I went back the 2018 CrimeCon session with Abigail's mother and Liberty's grandparents again. About halfway through (starting at 22:30) ISP 1st Sgt Holeman says they had 'several' sketches. He stated they went back several times to the witnesses and those witnesses would say it wasn't right and they would change a certain sketch. He also said they had to identify as many persons as possible that were on the trail to make sure a 'witness' wasn't identifying someone who they cleared. He said one witness, by the time they got it 'right' was actually describing Liberty's grandfather who was on the trail in the search. So it is possible this 2nd sketch - that was supposedly drawn within a week of the murders - was one of 'several'. IOW, it wasn't like LE had just 2 sketches and picked one and then the other 2 years later. He also discusses the 'hat' and there was some disagreement among the witnesses about it, but it was the closest the sketch artist could come up with.
BTW, the ONLY place I can find that interview is on an archived page of Reddit. You can find it with a Google search using "crimecon 2018 Delphi".

Wow so it's possible, from what ISP 1st Sgt. Holeman said, that NBG sketch was one of those early witness sketches of someone known, even someone helping to search very early on. Were they cleared in error because it was someone none suspected or they were given an ironclad false alibi? Something like that would sure explain the air of angry betrayal and the more intimate way in which ISP Carter talked to the killer? More and more I think BG had to be involved in the search.

 

[PaulaDC]

I had not heard of the movie. It sounds very scary, and even scarier if someone was imitating it. LE should hear about it!

You can find it on Vimeo. It's only a short movie, under 20 minutes on a low budget. I don't see the connection. But it's all in the perception.

 

[sunshineray]

try walking while having a 1 inch rod in each pant leg, belt line to knee area. You will notice that you have to walk differently.

That's pretty specific. What makes you think that?

 

[sunshineray]

The trespasser story seems to fit however the issues I see with this that are hard to reconcile are 1). LE came out and said sketch #2 is the person responsible for the murders so how can they say that and there really be no other connection to the crime and 2). LE's description of BG states "hat, hoodie, jeans, and jacket" they have never mentioned a scarf. So its hard to know what to think, but in the end its been way too long for anyone to all of a sudden remember someone they saw that day who fits the description so none of that matters today in identifying the suspect, as another poster said "he's not wearing any of that stuff again." What matters now is changes in behavior and appearance of anyone who is roughly the right height (because that isn't changeable) and had the opportunity to be there that day, convincing anyone who knows something they've been holding back to come forward, and if he slips up making sure people can make the connection to the case. Even the DNA angle shouldn't be the priority because there is clearly an issue with whatever they have that has prevented it from bringing this case to justice (unless its simply a matter of the person is not in the system and no lead thus far has led them to test anyone that even partially matches it). MOO

I don't know, Sheriff Leazenby's December 2018 RadarOnline interview spoke of DNA being sent to Quantico for "DNA testing research”.

Then in January 2019 CE was arrested and an almost dead ringer for the OBG sketch. LE subsequently say he's not the Delphi killer. DNA testing or physical alibi cleared him I'm guessing. Just recently we heard something along the lines that OBG was of a known man and he was cleared. Could that have been CE?

Now April 2019 PC happens and it's all, BG is local, hiding in plain sight, we've changed our investigative strategy, killer could be in this room, new/early on sketch released. Powerful stuff and something tells me there was DNA reverse family tree research to thank for it. AJMO

Side note: This is why the whole well-killer-could-be-a-combo-of-both-sketches talk makes me especially nuts.

 

[JudgeJudi]

To all my dear friends at WS

 

[Soulmagent]

I don't know, Sheriff Leazenby's December 2018 RadarOnline interview spoke of DNA being sent to Quantico for "DNA testing research”.

Then in January 2019 CE was arrested and an almost dead ringer for the OBG sketch. LE subsequently say he's not the Delphi killer. DNA testing or physical alibi cleared him I'm guessing. Just recently we heard something along the lines that OBG was of a known man and he was cleared. Could that have been CE?

Now April 2019 PC happens and it's all, BG is local, hiding in plain sight, we've changed our investigative strategy, killer could be in this room, new/early on sketch released. Powerful stuff and something tells me there was DNA reverse family tree research to thank for it. AJMO

Side note: This is why the whole well-killer-could-be-a-combo-of-both-sketches talk makes me especially nuts.

So the whole issue is... Does LE have a clue? Collectively in our world there is not a legal way to dead cue a suspect unless they are a felon. They are working on a DNA data base on all of us.
I really think Delphi investigators need seek out county park service employees.

 

[sunshineray]

The fact that LE has said repeatedly that OBG was “suspected of having participated in the murders” is a good reason in and of itself to think two perps may have been involved. I've thought this for a very long time and still do.

ETA: How many murders have you followed here where this sort of comment has been made over and over almost from the very beginning. The norm is that you only read/hear of one suspect until such time as LE come out and say there may be more than one suspect. It's more than a little odd.

I read your post and then look at this article. It's like it hits you in the face sometimes. There were two, that the whole "combination of the two" talk we've heard from ISP Carter and now Kelsei should be taken literally, there were two involved? I just don't know...is that what it is?

"On Wednesday, police emphasized that a new sketch of a suspect’s face is not supposed to be a different take on a composite sketch of a heavier, older-looking man. They are, according to Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley, not the same person.

Riley also said Wednesday that the original sketch – released in the summer of 2017, showing a man with a goatee and a driving cap – is “not presently a person of interest in this investigation.”

According to an ISP release, the new sketch of the clean-shaven man “is representative of the face of the person captured in the video on Liberty German’s cell phone as he was walking on the high bridge.”

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

 

[sunshineray]

So the whole issue is... Does LE have a clue? Collectively in our world there is not a legal way to dead cue a suspect unless they are a felon. They are working on a DNA data base on all of us.
I really think Delphi investigators need seek out county park service employees.

The Golden State Killer was an ex-cop, I don't believe he had a felony record. He was found legally through family tree DNA searching from a genealogy site hit on crime scene or autopsy collected DNA of victims. Then he was legally confirmed as the killer by testing something he disgarded.

 

[Torch Carrier]

I wonder how young the NBG was at the time this crime occurred. I wonder when his birthday is. I wonder if he was a minor when this crime occurred, and if so, he likely became of age by this time ... did his turning 18 have anything to do with LE releasing the NBG sketch? Just thoughts ... trying to figure out why the NBG sketch was released when it was. Could it really have been (as the FBI on Best Case/Worst Case pod seemed to suggest) that a RSO was found NOT to be involved here, then the NBG sketch was suddenly trotted out? That does not sound right to me. I wonder WHAT happened that brought about that 4/22 PC??? I wonder how old NBG was then, how old he is now ... ? Would his having reached the age of majority lead LE to handle things differently, assuming they know (but don't have sufficient evid to prove in court) who NBG is?
Lots of questions, wish I/we had more answers.

 

[Torch Carrier]

Where is all this talk of someone keen on blades coming from? Are those who talk of this referring to someone who has been buying, collecting, or selling blades online?

 

[Torch Carrier]

Similarly, I wonder about the post referring to numchuks (not sure I've spelled that right). What are they used for? Are they commonly used? Why do you think these are relevent here or is this just a total guess on someone's part?