Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[303gmf]

Even experienced and trained searchers are in danger in those conditions.

No one had any high powered flashlights ??
Highway/road work crews have access to huge lighting systems for nighttime work, any call out for help in lighting up the areas? Why not?

 

[holtzmann]

No one had any high powered flashlights ??
Highway/road work crews have access to huge lighting systems for nighttime work, any call out for help in lighting up the areas? Why not?

It's very easy to criticize searchers with hindsight. We have to remember that at the time, nobody had any reason to believe the girls were in imminent danger.

Delphi is a town of about 3,000 people. That's small. That's really small. I regularly visit a town of about 5,000 people and if you take a through street, you can literally drive through it in under 2 minutes.

The availability and logistics of securing highway/road crews, advanced lighting rigs, etc. is far more difficult in areas like Delphi. Flashlights alone, even high-powered, even to the point of what your car headlights can show you, isn't going to be enough to safely map out topographical anomalies for a whole crew.

 

[holtzmann]

I really wish we could get away from throwing suspicion and condemnation on the search parties that first night. I understand there is anger and frustration, but we have to remember the context everyone was working in, and the realities of Delphi's resources as a whole.

 

[303gmf]

A

I really wish we could get away from throwing suspicion and condemnation on the search parties that first night. I understand there is anger and frustration, but we have to remember the context everyone was working in, and the realities of Delphi's resources as a whole.

Questioning is not always criticism is it??
From a small town as well but resources are fairly close by in larger surrounding locales. The cold temperatures at night tells me they were in danger and could have been injured

 

[holtzmann]

You do seem to be criticizing the team's decisions as not being enough, jmo...

It stayed above freezing that night. Without evidence of foul play or injury, LE simply is not going to act immediately as if it is a factor. There is a process of escalating search efforts, just as with any group of law enforcement, e.g. you don't call out the whole fire station for every initial report of a fire.

 

[303gmf]

You do seem to be criticizing the team's decisions as not being enough, jmo...

It stayed above freezing that night. Without evidence of foul play or injury, LE simply is not going to act immediately as if it is a factor. There is a process of escalating search efforts, just as with any group of law enforcement, e.g. you don't call out the whole fire station for every initial report of a fire.

3 plus years of no arrest I believe calls for some criticism and re thinking what went wrong in the initial searches and investigation, surely you’ve read many other like minded thought

 

[TL4S]

You do seem to be criticizing the team's decisions as not being enough, jmo...

It stayed above freezing that night. Without evidence of foul play or injury, LE simply is not going to act immediately as if it is a factor. There is a process of escalating search efforts, just as with any group of law enforcement, e.g. you don't call out the whole fire station for every initial report of a fire.

As you said before, the search team heads are responsible for keeping their people safe. What if a member of the official search party had fallen off the bridge or down an embankment and needed rescued or been killed? An already horrible situation would have been made worse and the criticism then would be why the searchers were asked to work under those dangerous circumstances.

 

[GoldenBear1]

Hey all. I wondered if I could ask a favor. There are sooo many posts and threads in the case, it's hard to navigate. We are working on one as well, the cold case Asenath Dukat who was killed in Upper Arlington, Ohio in 1980 (www.longwalkhomeua.com), there is also a thread for it on WS. So the favor, is there anyway to get a quick summary of what's known beyond the sketch, photo and voice? We know the bodies were in a culvert and a black Nike shoe was found first, is there anything else that can be shared? Thank you all!

 

[Fizzle]

Hey all. I wondered if I could ask a favor. There are sooo many posts and threads in the case, it's hard to navigate. We are working on one as well, the cold case Asenath Dukat who was killed in Upper Arlington, Ohio in 1980 (www.longwalkhomeua.com), there is also a thread for it on WS. Anyway, we have a suspect, in our case we call suspect2, who was never convicted of the crime. The girl he is suspected of killing (amongst a host of nefarious activities to this day) was placed in a culvert, much like the Delphi girls were. We also believe he made several trips through this park in Delphi with his motorcycle "club" and had a friend in the area. So the favor, is there anyway to get a quick summary of what's known beyond the sketch, photo and voice? We know the bodies were in a culvert and a black Nike shoe was found first, is there anything else that we can use to pair with our case? Thank you all!

There are 2 sketches and a height/weight estimate, so make sure to take a look at all of that. He's short -- I believe the latest estimate was 5 foot 8-9? At one point they said that he had reddish brown hair. The latest sketch represents a guy that would be way too young to have committed a crime in 1980.

 

[GoldenBear1]

Yes, our image more closely resembles, strikingly so, the first sketch released of the older man in hoodie and hat.

 

[ReadySet]

Excellent post.

LE may or may not have more they could release, but my feeling is that their hope lies with the video and audio. It's key evidence. DC has said many times during interviews that a family member would know another family member seeing them "without a head," which I think just means the bridge video, even without a clear face, should still be recognizable to people who know him well.

If the people who truly know him won't come forward, no amount of information will help, IMO. DC spoke directly to both BG and the person(s) who knows at the last PC. Maybe LE feels strongly that someone knows, so that's what they're betting on instead of the public? IDK

Plus, LE thinks BG wants to know what they know. Not releasing more info (which LE must feel wouldn't move the case forwards, anyway) avoids giving BG what he wants most.

 

[ReadySet]

If we had access to all the facts and information about the case, then yes.
But we don't.

3 plus years of no arrest I believe calls for some criticism and re thinking what went wrong in the initial searches and investigation, surely you’ve read many other like minded thought

 

[Charlot123]

I remember, that within the first days it was said, they had found "biological" evidence and because of the terrain/conditions I immediately thought of human feces. The link (to this one sentence) doesn't exist any more since 2017. Why do we have never heard of the term "biological evidence" again, I wonder .....

https://www.researchgate.net/public...uspect_with_a_Crime_Scene_Report_of_Two_Cases

Feces have DNA, I hope they processed them.
What if he left animal feces, though? He could have done it

 

[Charlot123]

“Who’s next?...I know you have asked yourself that very question.”

This line stands out to me. DC is definitely indicating he thinks there will be other victims...is it possible the “signatures” were left at other crime scenes? Is it possible LE has denied connections to other crimes so as not to create panic that a serial child killer might be in or near the community?
“We were on to something early on...”
Could that “something” be the connection to other crimes?

I understand it differently. I think that early on, they saw something indicating who it might have been. But one of the witnesses sent them the wrong way. Maybe the sketch they revealed even resembles that witness. Consequently, they didn’t search certain houses as several motives were off the table. And now it is too late.

 

[zencompass]

In Pursuit with John Walsh
February 14 at 3:00 PM ·
UNSOLVED: It's been three long years since 13-year-old Abigail “Abby” Williams and 14-year-old Liberty “Libby” German were murdered and we are working hard on their case. Keep watching this page for updates for when their story will air and how you can help solve this case.

In Pursuit with John Walsh

The comments beneath the post by John Walsh "we are working hard on their case", show great interest from all over the country, which isn't surprising but so good to see!

It's difficult to contain my excitement about Libby and Abby's case being shown on "In Pursuit with John Walsh", because this could possibly lead to their case being solved.

Doug Carter showed his excitement in the following video of "Indiana State Police Roadshow" when the subject of John Walsh contacting them to do a show was brought up.

(This Indian State Police Roadshow) has been linked upthread as well by a wonderful poster!

6:12 time of the video:

 

[StarryStarryNight]

We are three years out and no arrest and we are all mighty frustrated about that. In my opinion LE has really messed up in a lot of ways to get us here but the search before the girls’ bodies were found is not one of the problems.
Everyone, family, friends, LE were doing their best to find the girls. Were perfect decisions made? No. Was the search perfect? No. Was everybody trying their best? I believe so. According to LE from the “Scene of the Crime” podcast there is no evidence that the girls were killed elsewhere. They were not brought back in the middle of the night. I do think the general area where they were found was searched but guess what, they didn’t see them in the dark. The fact is, sadly, if they had found them at 4:30pm on Feb 13th they were dead. If they found them at 8:30pm that night, they were dead. Although the search is an aspect of the case as far as telling the story of the murders, the real investigation didn’t start until the next day after the bodies were found.

 

[holtzmann]

3 plus years of no arrest I believe calls for some criticism and re thinking what went wrong in the initial searches and investigation, surely you’ve read many other like minded thought

Yes, I have, and I say the same thing every time — everybody was making the best decisions they could with the information they had at the time.

It is SO easy to point fingers now that we know the girls were in immediate danger and were tragically, violently murdered. If we look back on that night with that knowledge, it is very easy to look at the initial search with outrage and fist-shaking, asking "but why didn't they pull out all the stops?"

The answer is, because they didn't know.

Law enforcement cannot go from 0 to 60 in any endeavor without due process, and there are good reasons for that. Finances are a concern. So is manpower. Delphi is not an area with the police resources of a larger city. LE in the area had no reason to believe that a major, intensive overnight search was warranted.

The night was cold, yes, but not below freezing. Nobody had heard any distress calls, nobody saw any signs of foul play, nobody had any reason to believe that the girls had been severely injured. With the limited options available to LE at the time, if they had continued the search that first night, they ran a high risk of having a volunteer get injured under their watch. That equals lawsuits. That equals added harm and added risk for all involved.

If LE had thought there was any possibility of a killer on the loose, you can bet your *advertiser censored* they wouldn't have had civilians out searching in the first place, either. Everything LE did that first night was done with the best of intentions and to the best of their ability and knowledge.

We cannot judge them based on information they did not have.

 

[zencompass]

Yes, I have, and I say the same thing every time — everybody was making the best decisions they could with the information they had at the time.

It is SO easy to point fingers now that we know the girls were in immediate danger and were tragically, violently murdered. If we look back on that night with that knowledge, it is very easy to look at the initial search with outrage and fist-shaking, asking "but why didn't they pull out all the stops?"

The answer is, because they didn't know.

Law enforcement cannot go from 0 to 60 in any endeavor without due process, and there are good reasons for that. Finances are a concern. So is manpower. Delphi is not an area with the police resources of a larger city. LE in the area had no reason to believe that a major, intensive overnight search was warranted.

The night was cold, yes, but not below freezing. Nobody had heard any distress calls, nobody saw any signs of foul play, nobody had any reason to believe that the girls had been severely injured. With the limited options available to LE at the time, if they had continued the search that first night, they ran a high risk of having a volunteer get injured under their watch. That equals lawsuits. That equals added harm and added risk for all involved.

If LE had thought there was any possibility of a killer on the loose, you can bet your *advertiser censored* they wouldn't have had civilians out searching in the first place, either. Everything LE did that first night was done with the best of intentions and to the best of their ability and knowledge.

We cannot judge them based on information they did not have.

Dear @holtzmann

Thank you for this excellent and greatly insightful post!

 

[Mike Britton]

I think, DC was speaking to a very smart killer, who knows himself, he is indeed "evil" from time to time, but has brain cells enough to feel at least a little bit guiltily too and has a little bit conscience left (wasn't much in quantity at all, what DC indicated between his thumb and his forefinger, while saying this). MOO

He probably has a "conscience" that's based on his own safety and ability to thrive. His family may factor highly into the mask of normalcy he's constructed around himself as he maintains a conscience that's limited in scope, yet serves to emphasize his innocence and lack of brutal pathology enough to provide security.

When his family is involved and his support system challenged, this offender may reveal himself.

 

[holtzmann]

Quick note to add, if you haven't already gone to Youtube to check out some videos from people who have been to the bridge and walked across it (yes, I know it's banned, but unfortunately as you know, people, etc.), I highly recommend it to get a sense of what the searchers, girls, AND BG were up against.

Suffice it to say, that bridge is in a terrifying condition, and trying to walk across it with flashlights would be a death sentence.