Questions you'd like answers to... #2

[UKGuy]

So JR called a lawyer before the 911 call? If that is true, the entire timeline is thrown off. However, a previous call to PR's does not surprise since the refusal to hand over the phone records can only indicate deception. Has anyone else heard about this?

proust20,
Yes, JR could have phoned anyone.

Patsy purchased a cellphone for John's Christmas, and that has vanished, so that could have been used to phone anyone?

It's likely John phoned for legal advice that morning as he seemed pretty much prepared for what transpired.

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[Stevem3]

Are there any theories on how the garrote was actually used ? Was the wooden handle end just pulled hard to tighten the loop at the other end ( which was around neck ? ) or could the rope be tightened by turning the wooden handle round and around ? I ask because there is hair stuck in the rope around the handle which possibly could have come from twisting and turning the handle as it was close to the neck. I ask because garrote capital punishment method uses a turning of the handle.

 

[Logic101]

Are there any theories on how the garrote was actually used ? Was the wooden handle end just pulled hard to tighten the loop at the other end ( which was around neck ? ) or could the rope be tightened by turning the wooden handle round and around ? I ask because there is hair stuck in the rope around the handle which possibly could have come from twisting and turning the handle as it was close to the neck. I ask because garrote capital punishment method uses a turning of the handle.

The garrote was constructed for maximum force. It has been suggested that the person who killed her, placed their knee or foot in the small of JonBenet’s back and then pulled, with deadly consequences, to say the least!

 

[Stevem3]

The garrote was constructed for maximum force. It has been suggested that the person who killed her, placed their knee or foot in the small of JonBenet’s back and then pulled, with deadly consequences, to say the least!

I wonder why the perp would go to the trouble of using paint brush handle. Could the not just have pulled tight on a rope just using their hands to hold the rope ? Or if she was unconscious just cover her mouth and nose with their hand to suffocate. To me the whole garrote use is odd. I can understand using a garrote to kill a man, mafia style from behind, but a young child it seems a garrote would not be needed.

 

[UKGuy]

Are there any theories on how the garrote was actually used ? Was the wooden handle end just pulled hard to tighten the loop at the other end ( which was around neck ? ) or could the rope be tightened by turning the wooden handle round and around ? I ask because there is hair stuck in the rope around the handle which possibly could have come from twisting and turning the handle as it was close to the neck. I ask because garrote capital punishment method uses a turning of the handle.

Stevem3,
The turning aspect was likely not used here, as it would have pulled more hair out of JonBenet's head, by the roots.

The ligature was applied around JonBenet's neck including her hair at the back, when knotted it captured some of her hair.

Pulled or held tightly would have resulted in JonBenet's death.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I wonder why the perp would go to the trouble of using paint brush handle. Could the not just have pulled tight on a rope just using their hands to hold the rope ? Or if she was unconscious just cover her mouth and nose with their hand to suffocate. To me the whole garrote use is odd. I can understand using a garrote to kill a man, mafia style from behind, but a young child it seems a garrote would not be needed.

Stevem3,
Totally agree with you. Best described as overkill in a homicide and is more of a dramatic device in a staged crime-scene.

Functionally it was not required, who needs to ligature asphyxiate a six-year old girl?

It was probably done to hide or mask any prior neck injuries?


.

 

[Stevem3]

Stevem3,
Totally agree with you. Best described as overkill in a homicide and is more of a dramatic device in a staged crime-scene.

Functionally it was not required, who needs to ligature asphyxiate a six-year old girl?

It was probably done to hide or mask any prior neck injuries?

Thanks UKGuy I never thought of the hiding of other bruises. Possibly trying to hide bruise that some say due to her being pulled by clothing collar. I have heard it suggested at some point she was pulled tightly by her clothing collar.

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[UKGuy]

Stevem3,
Yes, could be redness due to a Choke Hold, or as you suggest being restrained by her clothing say her Red Turtleneck top left in the toilet?

.

 

[UKGuy]

proust20,
Yes, JR could have phoned anyone.

Patsy purchased a cellphone for John's Christmas, and that has vanished, so that could have been used to phone anyone?

It's likely John phoned for legal advice that morning as he seemed pretty much prepared for what transpired.

.

proust20,

here is Patsy being interviewed about the phones:

1998 Boulder Police Department Patsy Ramsey Interview Excerpt

1 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up

2 again. We talked about that phone, possible

3 phone lines. Did you folks at that time have

4 any other phones, any cell phones, cellular--

5 PATSY RAMSEY: John had a cell

6 phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at

7 Christmas, little teeny one.

8 TOM HANEY: Was it activated?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's

10 activated when you buy it.

11 TOM HANEY: It's not much of a

12 present if it doesn't work?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think it was

14 activated.

15 TOM HANEY: Probably. Do you

16 recall the phone number?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

18 TOM HANEY: How about John's cell

19 phone, do you recall that number?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

21 TOM HANEY: Did he have just the

22 one, was that a personal one?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: He had had one and

24 he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years

25 ago, and he -- I think he lost and then --

0067

1 anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic

2 one at, what's that store -- that music video

3 store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of

4 those, Sound Advice or -- and I had it -- I had

5 it sitting on the window ledge charging and he

6 walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will

7 just take this one.

8 And I think meanwhile, Denise, his

9 secretary had ordered him a new phone.

10 TOM HANEY: Okay, was that an Access

11 Graphics phone?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Access Graphics, yes. I

13 mean there were a couple of phones and they were

14 both relatively new and I don't know what the

15 number was.

16 TOM HANEY: And where were they

17 normally kept?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

19 TOM HANEY: His--

20 PATSY RAMSEY: His was usually

21 charging somewhere, probably in his briefcase or

22 something.

23 TOM HANEY: Did he have a charger

24 set up somewhere though or--

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I don't

0068

1 remember.

2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And between the

3 time that you folks had returned from the Whites

4 on Christmas night, and this call to the Boulder

5 police in the morning, on the 26th, had you made

6 or received any phone calls on any of those

7 lines?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall,

9 no.

Patsy gets her denials in fast here, John Lost his Phone e.g. maybe that is where his Christmas Gift cellphone went, whenever Patsy smells danger she reverts to spells of Ramnesia.

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Stevem3,
Yes, could be redness due to a Choke Hold, or as you suggest being restrained by her clothing say her Red Turtleneck top left in the toilet?

.

UKGuy,
In the toilet? Am I lost?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
In the toilet? Am I lost?

Rain on my Parade,

Patsy originally told three police officers that JonBenet went to bed wearing the red turtleneck. This was revised later on to the White Gap Top.

This is a bit like John saying he read to JonBenet, oops she is meant to be asleep.


Remember Patsy said she and JonBenet argued over what to wear to the White's,Patsy wore a red turtleneck and JonBenet wore her new White Gap Top.


So the red turtleneck sweater ended up wet and balled up on the bathroom counter.


Its refrenced in JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation or Pefect Murder Perfect Town.

here is the essence of Steve Thomas' theory:

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

STEVEN THOMAS

September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.

Page 1

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA

2 ATLANTA DIVISION

3 ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,

Plaintiff,

4 Civil Action File

vs.

5 No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)

JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY and

6 PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,

Defendants. EXCERPT

"When they came home, John Ramsey

7 helped Burke put together a Christmas toy.

8 JonBenet, who had not eaten much at the

9 Whites' party, was hungry. Her mother let

10 her have some pineapple, and then the kids

11 were put to bed. John Ramsey read to his

12 little girl. Then he went to bed. Patsy

13 stayed up to prepare for the trip to Michigan

14 the next morning, a trip she admittedly did

15 not particularly want to make.

16 "Later JonBenet awakened after

17 wetting her bed, as indicated by the plastic

18 sheets, the urine stains, the pull-up diaper

19 package hanging halfway out of a cabinet, and

20 the balled-up turtleneck found in the

21 bathroom. I concluded that the little girl

22 had worn the red turtleneck to bed, as her

23 mother originally said, and that it was

24 stripped off when it got wet.

25 "As I told Smith, I never believed

176

1 the child was sexually abused for the

2 gratification of the offender but that the

3 vaginal trauma was some sort of corporal

4 punishment. The dark fibers found in her

5 pubic region could have come from the violent

6 wiping of a wet child. Patsy probably yanked

7 out the diaper package in cleaning up

8 JonBenet.

9 "Patsy would not be the first

10 mother to lose control in such a situation.

You need to read his book for more detail.

.

 

[UKGuy]

04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation" , Page 37:

"On the stair landing just outside the victim's bedroom were a washer and dryer and some wall cabinets, and the door of one cabinet stood wide open, with a large package of pull-up diapers hanging halfway off the shelf. Police were struck by the oddity of diapers being used in a household with kids aged nine and six, particularly when viewed in light of the bed-fouling report about JonBenet. We had to deterimine if that was somehow related to her death."

"On the bathroom counter lay a balled-up child's red turtleneck sweater. Although Patsy said JonBenet had gone to bed wearing a red turtleneck, the body was discovered in the same white pullover she had worn the evening before. Who had changed her clothes?"

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,

Patsy originally told three police officers that JonBenet went to bed wearing the red turtleneck. This was revised later on to the White Gap Top.

This is a bit like John saying he read to JonBenet, oops she is meant to be asleep.


Remember Patsy said she and JonBenet argued over what to wear to the White's,Patsy wore a red turtleneck and JonBenet wore her new White Gap Top.


So the red turtleneck sweater ended up wet and balled up on the bathroom counter.


Its refrenced in JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation or Pefect Murder Perfect Town.

here is the essence of Steve Thomas' theory:

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

STEVEN THOMAS

September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.

Page 1

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA

2 ATLANTA DIVISION

3 ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,

Plaintiff,

4 Civil Action File

vs.

5 No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)

JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY and

6 PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,

Defendants. EXCERPT


You need to read his book for more detail.

.

UKGuy,
I’ve read ST: ITMI, but thank you. Red turtleneck top left in the toilet is what confused me. I took that literal.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation" , Page 37:
"On the stair landing just outside the victim's bedroom were a washer and dryer and some wall cabinets, and the door of one cabinet stood wide open, with a large package of pull-up diapers hanging halfway off the shelf. Police were struck by the oddity of diapers being used in a household with kids aged nine and six, particularly when viewed in light of the bed-fouling report about JonBenet. We had to deterimine if that was somehow related to her death."

"On the bathroom counter lay a balled-up child's red turtleneck sweater. Although Patsy said JonBenet had gone to bed wearing a red turtleneck, the body was discovered in the same white pullover she had worn the evening before. Who had changed her clothes?"
"On the stair landing just outside the victim's bedroom were a washer and dryer and some wall cabinets, and the door of one cabinet stood wide open, with a large package of pull-up diapers hanging halfway off the shelf. Police were struck by the oddity of diapers being used in a household with kids aged nine and six, particularly when viewed in light of the bed-fouling report about JonBenet. We had to deterimine if that was somehow related to her death."

"On the bathroom counter lay a balled-up child's red turtleneck sweater. Although Patsy said JonBenet had gone to bed wearing a red turtleneck, the body was discovered in the same white pullover she had worn the evening before. Who had changed her clothes?"
.

UKGuy,
In the video I have posted (showing the pillow sitting on the breakfast bar), you can also see the upstairs cabinet w/the diapers hanging out for a brief moment. You can also see the red turtleneck sweater on JB bathroom counter. Although, I didn’t recall the statement ST made that JB had wet her bed.

 

[Logic101]

I wonder why the perp would go to the trouble of using paint brush handle. Could the not just have pulled tight on a rope just using their hands to hold the rope ? Or if she was unconscious just cover her mouth and nose with their hand to suffocate. To me the whole garrote use is odd. I can understand using a garrote to kill a man, mafia style from behind, but a young child it seems a garrote would not be needed.

You could not get the same traction by just pulling on the cord/rope. The paint brush handle was necessary for leverage. Sad to say, but the person that pulled that handle intended to kill her.

A lot of speculation about Burke and his knot making abilities that he may have acquired with scouting but I doubt seriously that garrote making was ever a part of the curriculum.

 

[icedtea4me]

You could not get the same traction by just pulling on the cord/rope. The paint brush handle was necessary for leverage. Sad to say, but the person that pulled that handle intended to kill her.

A lot of speculation about Burke and his knot making abilities that he may have acquired with scouting but I doubt seriously that garrote making was ever a part of the curriculum.

Well, many of the BDIs also think that Burke and his friends (all ranging from 8-10 years of age) were inserting things in JonBenet's vagina in an upstairs room in a house with at least 20 adults meandering about during a Christmas party.

 

[Logic101]

Well, many of the BDIs also think that Burke and his friends (all ranging from 8-10 years of age) were inserting things in JonBenet's vagina in an upstairs room in a house with at least 20 adults meandering about during a Christmas party.

I know! Some of the stuff being speculated is beyond ridiculous.

 

[icedtea4me]

I know! Some of the stuff being speculated is beyond ridiculous.

Seriously. Oh, and there's also the fact that there were girls JonBenet's age (or thereabouts) who were there at the party.

 

[UKGuy]

You could not get the same traction by just pulling on the cord/rope. The paint brush handle was necessary for leverage. Sad to say, but the person that pulled that handle intended to kill her.

A lot of speculation about Burke and his knot making abilities that he may have acquired with scouting but I doubt seriously that garrote making was ever a part of the curriculum.

Logic101,

A lot of speculation about Burke and his knot making abilities that he may have acquired with scouting but I doubt seriously that garrote making was ever a part of the curriculum.

This is why it will have been either Patsy or John who applied the paintbrush/ligature.

Fibers from Patsy's sweater are embedded into the ligature knotting along with JonBenet's hair.

So its seems Patsy is prime candidate for killing JonBenet?

If John was not involved why would he go along with Patsy's deception, and continue it on to this day?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, many of the BDIs also think that Burke and his friends (all ranging from 8-10 years of age) were inserting things in JonBenet's vagina in an upstairs room in a house with at least 20 adults meandering about during a Christmas party.

icedtea4me,
Really, first I have heard of it.

So what do you reckon, was the 911 call just an accident, how come Patsy or John never fronted up to answer the responding officer at the door, sending Susan Stine instead?

Anything happening during the Ramsey Christmas Party might have been a precursor to her death on Christmas Night.

What do we make of this, is Tom Haney lying?

BPD 1998 -Interview with Patsy, excerpt

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are

0581

1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal

2 intrusion on JonBenet?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.

4 Prior to the night she was killed?

5 TOM HANEY: Correct.

6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.

7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.

9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.

11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.

13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.

15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have

16 been violated like that?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This

18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.

19 TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you

20 would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't

21 know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely

23 did not.

.