Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #134

[Falling Down]

I do not think it is him because he does not fit the type of person I would be looking for. Each of us has an opinion about the type of person who we think committed this crime.

Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case is a great example in how each person looks at the evidence. The first requirement for me regarding any suspect is that they are 50 or older at the time the crime was committed or they look 50 or older at the time the crime was committed. In my opinion, the person in Liberty German's phone video looks older than 50 years old. The current person of interest does not fit that first requirement. I would be incredibly surprised if he is the killer. Even though he fits the LE profile of 18-40 and may look younger, that again is what LE thinks and I think, at least in this particular case, they are wrong.

There is a lot of debate on whether the Monon High Bridge trail area is desolate or not. In my opinion, it does not look the type of place where people ride their bikes or take long runs listening to their headphones. I think this killer probably visits desolate little known wildlife areas throughout their life. For some reason this environment figures in their crimes.

In my opinion, it does not seem like their killer was seen or at least remembered well enough to help LE. There do not seem to be any witnesses. That is probably the most perplexing part of Abby and Libby's case.

There is one aspect of any person of interest that would really surprise me when considering the video/audio from Liberty German's phone. Let me paraphrase this point by remembering that a lot of criminals do not always do the smart thing.

If you were the killer and you saw a picture or video along with audio of yourself on ABC Nightly News, would you post pictures of yourself on social media afterwards?

BBM

I'm of the opinion the killer chose that small area along Deer Creek for his attack because, yes, that environment was perfect for his fantasy, and aided in his success that day. The CS is secluded enough, however the small area in question along that gorge aided in his escape and is easily accessible from the main trail.

Furthermore, this didn't happen in, say, a more well-known public park in that general area of west central IN. Or for that matter, a state park where there might be a security barrier of some sort in place. He chose a spot that has sporadic foot traffic, off of a county road that sees very little vehicle traffic. Most of the foot traffic prior to that day would have come from the main trail and the other side of Freedom Bridge, where the main parking area is located. So for most trail users back then, it was one way in and out, and nowadays it's almost 100% so.

The distances are very short. I walked them in a manner of minutes back in October, that is the FB to what I would call landmarks along the trail, and eventually the High Bridge, can be walked in under 15 minutes. So it is true that this is not exactly a destination people would plan on spending long periods of time at, and while I was there in October the people I passed were not "loaded down" with any gear, I for one don't listen to ear buds or anything like that when I'm out in nature and I rarely see anyone doing so.

I try to remind people that after passing about two dozen people in 10 minutes, I was out there alone. Alone for about another 30 minutes as I poked around a bit.

Far as SM is concerned, I've said since early on there's a high likelihood the killer has little or no SM presence.

JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

BBM

I'm of the opinion the killer chose that small area along Deer Creek for his attack because, yes, that environment was perfect for his fantasy, and aided in his success that day. The CS is secluded enough, however the small area in question along that gorge aided in his escape and is easily accessible from the main trail.

Furthermore, this didn't happen in, say, a more well-known public park in that general area of west central IN. Or for that matter, a state park where there might be a security barrier of some sort in place. He chose a spot that has sporadic foot traffic, off of a county road that sees very little vehicle traffic. Most of the foot traffic prior to that day would have come from the main trail and the other side of Freedom Bridge, where the main parking area is located. So for most trail users back then, it was one way in and out, and nowadays it's almost 100% so.

The distances are very short. I walked them in a manner of minutes back in October, that is the FB to what I would call landmarks along the trail, and eventually the High Bridge, can be walked in under 15 minutes. So it is true that this is not exactly a destination people would plan on spending long periods of time at, and while I was there in October the people I passed were not "loaded down" with any gear, I for one don't listen to ear buds or anything like that when I'm out in nature and I rarely see anyone doing so.

I try to remind people that after passing about two dozen people in 10 minutes, I was out there alone. Alone for about another 30 minutes as I poked around a bit.

Far as SM is concerned, I've said since early on there's a high likelihood the killer has little or no SM presence.

JMO

And when I was there.... there was NOBODY around.
Parked at the old CVS building parking lot, walked to FB entrance.
Not a soul in sight. And I was completely visible walking along side the main road to get there.

Not one person as we walked to the bridge.

Saw 3 kids with fishing poles going to the 505 trail to go fishing on way back
Saw 2 other people at beginning of trails when we got back to FB entrance.

Then drove to cemetery-- nobody could see me parked down in back corner next to RL property
I could NOT see my car from road parked down there.

I for one, do NOT think he parked at old building .. I was out in the open

The cemetery, however, concealed me.

The day the girls were there, supposedly a lot of other people were there but over on S end of bridge, near RL property where girls were found, there would not have been anyone there.
JMO

 

[iamnotagolem]

I do not think it is him because he does not fit the type of person I would be looking for. Each of us has an opinion about the type of person who we think committed this crime.

Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case is a great example in how each person looks at the evidence. The first requirement for me regarding any suspect is that they are 50 or older at the time the crime was committed or they look 50 or older at the time the crime was committed. In my opinion, the person in Liberty German's phone video looks older than 50 years old. The current person of interest does not fit that first requirement. I would be incredibly surprised if he is the killer. Even though he fits the LE profile of 18-40 and may look younger, that again is what LE thinks and I think, at least in this particular case, they are wrong.

There is a lot of debate on whether the Monon High Bridge trail area is desolate or not. In my opinion, it does not look the type of place where people ride their bikes or take long runs listening to their headphones. I think this killer probably visits desolate little known wildlife areas throughout their life. For some reason this environment figures in their crimes.

In my opinion, it does not seem like their killer was seen or at least remembered well enough to help LE. There do not seem to be any witnesses. That is probably the most perplexing part of Abby and Libby's case.

There is one aspect of any person of interest that would really surprise me when considering the video/audio from Liberty German's phone. Let me paraphrase this point by remembering that a lot of criminals do not always do the smart thing.

If you were the killer and you saw a picture or video along with audio of yourself on ABC Nightly News, would you post pictures of yourself on social media afterwards?

While I hope it’s JBC just so the family can get closure and there isn’t still a killer out on the streets. I agree with you. I can’t see JBC as BG no matter how hard I try, especially the video.

eta: I meant to say I agree BG seems to be older. His clothing, the way he carries himself in the very short clip, just seems much older. JMO

 

[Becky Starkey]

Except there was at least one witness, that's why we have the sketches. The presser where the "new direction" was announced, the officer while speaking to the killer says "we have a witness".

Sorry, tried to shorten that post I was replying to and messed it up instead.

 

[Falling Down]

And when I was there.... there was NOBODY around.
Parked at the old CVS building parking lot, walked to FB entrance.
Not a soul in sight. And I was completely visible walking along side the main road to get there.

Not one person as we walked to the bridge.

Saw 3 kids with fishing poles going to the 505 trail to go fishing on way back
Saw 2 other people at beginning of trails when we got back to FB entrance.

Then drove to cemetery-- nobody could see me parked down in back corner next to RL property
I could NOT see my car from road parked down there.

I for one, do NOT think he parked at old building .. I was out in the open

The cemetery, however, concealed me.

The day the girls were there, supposedly a lot of other people were there but over on S end of bridge, near RL property where girls were found, there would not have been anyone there.
JMO

Which is what I've thought since early on, that he may have parked at the back of the cemetery. I whirled through there my first time out there in '17, and noticed the same. A sedan would be difficult to detect from the road. An old driveway (for lack of a better term) leads down to near the CS, from the ridge above, at the corner where the cemetery and RL's property meet. It was for the abandoned gravel pit just below the cemetery. Sure makes walking in and out of the gorge along that area easier, in fact that's where LE and EMS and other vehicles were parked the day the bodies were found. Several were parked on RL's property where there's a gate.

On the flip side, BG had to be leery of people visiting the cemetery during the time in question, who in my mind's eye would have been able to give a fairly solid vehicle description.

From the CS to the corner of the cemetery is like 400 feet, give or take.

JMO

 

[Becky Starkey]

Which is what I've thought since early on, that he may have parked at the back of the cemetery. I whirled through there my first time out there in '17, and noticed the same. A sedan would be difficult to detect from the road. An old driveway (for lack of a better term) leads down to near the CS, from the ridge above, at the corner where the cemetery and RL's property meet. It was for the abandoned gravel pit just below the cemetery. Sure makes walking in and out of the gorge along that area easier, in fact that's where LE and EMS and other vehicles were parked the day the bodies were found. Several were parked on RL's property where there's a gate.

From the CS to the corner of the cemetery is like 400 feet, give or take.

JMO

I wish we knew what JBC's vehicle was at that time. The police probably know.

 

[coastal]

Which is what I've thought since early on, that he may have parked at the back of the cemetery. I whirled through there my first time out there in '17, and noticed the same. A sedan would be difficult to detect from the road. An old driveway (for lack of a better term) leads down to near the CS, from the ridge above, at the corner where the cemetery and RL's property meet. It was for the abandoned gravel pit just below the cemetery. Sure makes walking in and out of the gorge along that area easier, in fact that's where LE and EMS and other vehicles were parked the day the bodies were found. Several were parked on RL's property where there's a gate.

On the flip side, BG had to be leery of people visiting the cemetery during the time in question, who in my mind's eye would have been able to give a fairly solid vehicle description.

From the CS to the corner of the cemetery is like 400 feet, give or take.

JMO

An abandoned gravel pit is a great place to rock hunt. Are there any rockhounding clubs in the area? They might know who would likely know about that spot.

 

[Angelcat13]

I assumed he felt he had to answer or it would appear suspicious, and they might force their way in. He had a chain lock on the basement door and told police there was nothing in there, but their suspicions were aroused and they broke in.

IMO - He thinks he’s extremely smart and charming, thus he thought he could talk his way out of suspicion and the police would just make a cursory check and leave.

 

[Finlay]

I do not think it is him because he does not fit the type of person I would be looking for. Each of us has an opinion about the type of person who we think committed this crime.

Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case is a great example in how each person looks at the evidence. The first requirement for me regarding any suspect is that they are 50 or older at the time the crime was committed or they look 50 or older at the time the crime was committed. In my opinion, the person in Liberty German's phone video looks older than 50 years old. The current person of interest does not fit that first requirement. I would be incredibly surprised if he is the killer. Even though he fits the LE profile of 18-40 and may look younger, that again is what LE thinks and I think, at least in this particular case, they are wrong.

SBM for focus

I am intrigued with your personal belief that the killer in this case *MUST* be over 50 - or at least appear to be over 50. And I will immediately pretense my following comment with the acknowledgment that I have not followed this case closely until very recently so I could have missed many details & innuendo. But what I'm wondering is: Did you make your determination of the killer's age based simply on the over-zoomed screen shot image of BG (who I don't believe has been *confirmed* to be the killer in this case)? Or have there been other details that have been release which indicate the killer is likely 50 or more years old? I completely understand that you presented this as your opinion only - but I can be the curious sort that sometimes strives to understand the perspective's of others. And you seem to be rather resolute in your opinion. ...so I'm curious what type of details brought you to form your opinions. (Absolutely NO disrespect intended with these questions btw. #justCurious)

 

[mpnola]

Yeah. This is problematic. But a bunch of folks will find a way to explain it away, oddly enuff.

Explain what away? Have you listened to the police scanner recordings? We can't discuss it here, but there is nothing to explain away. Hes a monster and came real close to getting away with it, for the moment. Twice!

This is 100% expected and typical of the type of predator he is. He actually gains pleasure and thrives on assault under pressure. People outside screaming her name and he has her. Its one of the main reasons I think he is a very viable delphi candidate. The adrenaline of the tracks to immediately taking control of the girls, as evidenced by Libbys recording, in the middle of the day with many other people around.

This dude thinks he is slick. I can bet that he has spent lots of years getting pleasure from lying to someone's face or extreme risk taking or seeing how much he cam get away with. I am quite honesty confused by your confusion. Are we supposed to assume he is a normal human being who wouldn't want the police poking around? Well, that went out the window when he lured, beat up, raped, threatened and tried to murder a child in her very own "back yard". He didn't grab her and go miles away! They basically shared a yard. He engaged in the proverbial "pooped where he eats". Because he enjoys the risk. My opinion.

 

[katydid23]

Yeah. This is problematic. But a bunch of folks will find a way to explain it away, oddly enuff.

I think there are some rational explanations.

Police are knocking on his door, saying LOUDLY, 'This is the Police Department, Please, COME TO THE DOOR ,NOW!...we are not going away!"

So there's that^^^. Also, he was on probation or parole, not sure which....so he HAS TO answer the cop's demands and allow them to enter. They will knock down the door if necessary.

And, he had two OPEN WARRANTS. So they could use force to open the door if need be.

So it makes more sense to try and talk his way out of it by pretending to be cooperative and helpful, than by ignoring their demands. Even if he did have a battered rape victim lying on the basement floor.

 

[katydid23]

What really surprises me is he answered the door in the first place. And he let them in to search.

He's obviously not very smart and thinks other people are not smart

If he had threatened the girl into silence and remained silent himself, would the cops have left, or would they have had probable cause to force their way in?

I don't think he had a choice. He had open warrants, was on parole [I believe] --and a child who lived right behind him was missing, and had been seen talking to him. The cops weren't going to walk away.

He knew they were coming in, even if he didn't answer the door. JMO

 

[LaborDayRN]

I will first say that I have not really followed the Evansdale case, only as discussions related to Delphi. I know nothing about earlier discussions about a carwash. But...
I snipped this info from an earlier post:

“They were the only two people to go by on bikes that day to my knowledge,” said Joe Pahl, who alerted police about the video July 16. “I’ve watched it.”
Pahl is the manager of Cornbelt Auctions, 3520 Lafayette Road, where a 24-hour camera captured the footage from its position behind the building. The time and date stamp — 12:11 p.m. July 13 —“

And I found this info and map:

On the map, the red circled building is 3520 Lafayette Road in Evansdale, the building referenced above with the security camera video that saw the girls pass on bikes. The camera was behind the building so
the girls must have been riding on Brovan Blvd. The blue circled building is Kavalier Car Wash. Not very far away and not a stretch to figure the girls rode by it either before or after the security camera. My guess is that is why the car wash was part of the discussion at some point. As mentioned I know nothing about what that discussion entailed.
So...I kinda think a “carwashes and trestles” discussion is warranted.

I vaguely remember seeing still photos of the girls passing by a carwash. It was so long ago now and I'm not getting any younger! I attempted to find them online but came up empty.

 

[katydid23]

I vaguely remember seeing still photos of the girls passing by a carwash. It was so long ago now and I'm not getting any younger! I attempted to find them online but came up empty.

Your vague memories are correct. There were video images of them riding past the gas station/car wash. And that was minutes before they arrived at the park, where their bikes were found.

Some have speculated that some of the loiterers who hang at that convenience store may have seen them ride by and followed them to the park.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I called it that because it didn't seem too big, going off memory. It was definitely early on, not long after the girls had been found.

So happy to see you @skibaboo

 

[LaborDayRN]

The recent assault on the 9 year old was on the 19th. I'm with you-- knew about the 13s and totally open to the idea that he's our guy. But wanted to check dates and welp, this one is slightly off.

True. But I believe this one was a crime of opportunity, not planning.

 

[FromGermany1]

Dec 6th, 2012:
An FBI dive team brought in special equipment to search the lake days later, and the case was reclassified as an abduction after no sign of the girls emerged. Months passed — as did each girl’s birthday — without any news as police chased thousands of tips and explored theories about what could have happened. Volunteers held prayer vigils and hung pictures of the girls. An anonymous donor last week pledged $100,000 for information leading to their return and the conviction of those responsible for their disappearance, on top of the $50,000 authorities had announced.
Authorities ‘confident’ bodies are 2 Iowa cousins – Boston Herald

When I searched for something re Lizzy/Lyric (mostly unavailable to me), I just stumbled over the ^^ bbm. How comes, that an anonymous donor is offering a reward in both cases, Abby/Libby and Lizzy/Lyric, even offering the same sum of $$?
It makes me think of another perpetrator than Chadwell or his kind of people. Someone with money, who has "a little conscience left" maybe, someone, who "got around quickly", whether in Indiana or Iowa or between states. MOO

ETA: Otherwise JBC seems to be the right type of man to suspect him for many different crimes, of course even murder. IMO

 

[kkdj]

I'll bet they have! Probably won't share info with us or the public though

Until they charge him with possession of child *advertiser censored*.

 

[Ozoner]

I googled car wash and murder and found quite a few cases over the years. Seems to be a fairly common location for a killing.

All this talk about car washes has left the Jim Croce song stuck in my head. "I got them steadily depressin', low down, mind-messin' workin' at the car wash blues."

I assume that the car washes where people are victimized are the self-serve variety? People usually go there alone, and they're out of their vehicles/exposed for at least several minutes, so predators probably view those places as "target-rich environments."

 

[sandy_80]

Except there was at least one witness, that's why we have the sketches. The presser where the "new direction" was announced, the officer while speaking to the killer says "we have a witness".

Sorry, tried to shorten that post I was replying to and messed it up instead.

there are multiple witnesses .. the problem is who knows which of them is reliable...and what did they actually saw.. and does le believe in any of them